From GT5 to FM3

[IncredibleMind]

Forza has visible real-time tire deformation which has a direct link to the GRAPHICAL tire model.

Forza has real-time aerodynamics which has a direct link to the GRAPHICAL car model. Fender benders change the way the virtual air moves across the car model.

Notice how in both of the posts you link they clearly state "in their opinion", which clearly means they are no more right than my opinon numskull. And ohz noz, a whole 4 of the 23 EMW members have switched, in a democracy that would mean jack and ****. That's like trying to say gravity is false by using the 2% who believe that as proof.

Your problem is assuming the graphics you are looking at on screen are 100% representative of what's going on in the physics engine which I seriously doubt is the case. More than likely they have some generic numbers representative of the data you speak of.

 

[McLaren]

Bogie, here's a breakdown further proving my point about how you make claims, and/or then, try to play a "truce" card.

I have to agree, the physics in GT5 are indeed a step down.

A step down from what? Certianly not Forza 3.

Oh yes, most definitely.

HBR's gives out a large post countering you.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=132607&page=12#post4448971

Your reply to HBR's post?

We will just have to agree to disagree on our opinions and experiences.

Then I chimed in the same post HBR replied to & you finally gave out an argument. This exert is why your "opinion" is being challenged in the first place.

Odd, because in GT5 it's like the cars don't even want to break loose, let alone over or understeer. Everything seems too controllable in GT5. Braking late and dumping the gas early has very little affect on whether the car will make the turn properly. GT is almost acting like it's on auto turn at times. This is indeed something I have not experienced in FM3.

Zer0 & I reply to your post though. Zer0 is the one who gets credit for posting video facts.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=132607&page=13#post4464683

What is your reply?

I appreciate your opinion.

The controllable physics, damage, & such issues you comment on as "opinion" show it's based on you not playing deep enough into the game.

There are numerous ways for anyone to experience what Zer0 & I posted about. You claim you've done them, but must be playing a different copy b/c you haven't seen such things. Past debates however, say you're merely commenting such things b/c of your views towards Forza rather than an honest opinion formed from actual gameplay.

Again, we will have to agree to disagree. I say that because we obviously have different experiences and views of the same games. No point in beating a dead horse over opinions.

You reply the same thing again, completely ignoring Zer0 and his videos.


At this point, both Big & I come to the conclusion you're playing with driving assists.

All I can imagine is that this is in reference to race cars with high downforce and slicks or playing with all assists because pretty much all cars can be chucked about with lift off and trail braking and anything with more than a few hundred horse power will power oversteer up to 3rd gear.

I did the Schwarzwald League in a bone stock RUF BGT and the only times I wasn't holding a slide was in long 4th and 5th corners. Putting the power down in 2nd and 3rd would always have the rear trying to overtake the front.

Your experience though, (obviously & by own choice) stems from you not playing with all aids off. That or you're lying b/c the examples I've given will pin point exactly what I'm talking about & where Forza gets its infamous debate regarding it never actually turning off aids.

If this wasn't the case, you wouldn't be so quick to play the, "Agree to disagree" card once your posts are challenged enough.

Granted I wasn't as nice with my words, it was 1 or the other. But, I apparently struck a nerve. It's also the point where you've now fully stated that you play with no driving aids.

I race with aids off.
I guess I didn't realize you were going to be childish. Disregard any conversation we had. I don't have time for antics like that.

Hypocrisy much? You speak as if your remarkably similar accusations that I was lying about having played FM3 didn't happen.

Get over yourself with the self-righteous act. Mclaren gave video evidence disproving your claims yet you continue to pretend it's a subjective experience.

And yes you are lying. At a bare minimal you're lying to yourself if nothing else.

Zer0 technically posted it, but it was in reply to the same claims you continue to make. But it humored me to see IM reach the same conclusion.

So, let's recap. You said GT5 cars act like they don't want to break lose. Zer0, HBR, & I challenged this claim. You either countered or said, "agree to disagree" & acted like it was all opinion ignoring video proof. 2 of us finally came to assumption that you must be playing with assists; that's the only way the cars will not break lose.

As quoted above, you have now "admitted", that you do not play with driving aids. Everything else is just a pissing contest after these posts esp. with these claims that no one is experiencing what I'm talking about. Read everything before this part before you lie again; I just quoted them for everyone's convenience.


So now begs the question that if you are not playing with driving aids, how is it that HBR, Zer0, myself, & BigYoSpeck have experienced GT5 cars breaking lose with ease, but you haven't? I know you said we must have different copies, but that's absurd & you know it.

Are you going to claim it's all opinion again? Are you going to say I'm the only person who has experienced such things again? Or will you say that we should agree to disagree because your copy is magically different from everyone else's?

I'm honestly wondering how you can't experience the cars breaking lose with no assists. I'd like an honest answer, but we all know better by this point.

 

[Scaff]

Last but not least, why can I not buy and install upgraded brakes? I'm sorry, but this is an obvious flaw in the physics for braking. It's almost as if better tires give you better braking in GT. While better tire compound will change your braking it doesn't magically make it a lot better like upgraded brakes would.

Tyres are the single biggest factor in determining a cars stopping distance, uprated brakes (assuming the current system is up to the job) will not stop you any quicker at all.

Long, long ago in a magazine far, far away, a few renegade brake engineers rallied together to bring forward the following message:

“You can take this one to the bank. Regardless of your huge rotor diameter, brake pedal ratio, magic brake pad material, or number of pistons in your calipers, your maximum deceleration is limited every time by the tire to road interface. That is the point of this whole article. Your brakes do not stop your car. Your tires do stop the car. So while changes to different parts of the brake system may affect certain characteristics or traits of the system behavior, using stickier tires is ultimately the only sure-fire method of decreasing stopping distances.”

Source - http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakebiasandperformance.shtml

Uprated brakes will allow you stop from speed repeatedly, with less fade, better feel and better modulation. What they will not do, as long as the current brakes are capable of locking the tyres up, is stop you any quicker.

Real world physics here, tyres are the main factor in determining stopping distances, ahead of a cars weight, load transfer, rotor size, etc.


Scaff

 

[Bogie 19th]

Except my experience is shared with 3-4 other people in this thread. Nobody has had your experience.


Again, a few here have already seen the same things I have. Nobody has seen your experience for themselves in the game.


That's why 2 people now have already called you at your hypocrisy?


Then post proof, kiddo. Because at least 3-4 people have already done so in this thread. You are the only person saying GT cars are on rails.


Sorry, what I posted is fact. There is video evidence of what I posted.

What you post is false. The only way a car in GT handles on rails is with the stickiest tire compound available or if you have assists on.

The only people being entertained is everyone but us.

I love how you act like people are watching me, yet you're the one being quoted by multiple people.

Just keep spinning it....it's very fitting. Let us know when you have a full sweater

 

[Zer0]

Forza has visible real-time tire deformation which has a direct link to the GRAPHICAL tire model.

Forza has real-time aerodynamics which has a direct link to the GRAPHICAL car model. Fender benders change the way the virtual air moves across the car model.

Notice how in both of the posts you link they clearly state "in their opinion", which clearly means they are no more right than my opinon numskull. And ohz noz, a whole 4 of the 23 EMW members have switched, in a democracy that would mean jack and ****. That's like trying to say gravity is false by using the 2% who believe that as proof.

Yes graphics can be linked to physics but is just a visual effect, you don't need to visible animate the active aero parts to run that part of the physics into the simulation, like you don't need to make a gear change animation for being able to simulate a car engine gear change.

Just found interesting that the most experienced teams in Forza agreed with C&D and most of the people wich played both games, unlike a minority here.

 

[McLaren]

Just keep spinning it....it's very fitting. Let us know when you have a full sweater

Typical response as everyone here expected. You can't hold an argument, so you try to be funny.

 

[Terronium-12]

Mc, hush yo' face and let it go.

 

[SkylineObsession]

Dontcha just love the internets. Interweb 'arguing' FTW.

 

[Daddybird]

I do believe I said I understand why people would be disappointed by the muffled engine sounds/loud gears in cockpit view.

Also, I 'll repeat what I've said before, if it bothers you that much you can always switch to hood cam which for some reason you seem to be omitting.

I was making a point that these super stellar, ultra realistic sounds that people are proclaiming in Forza are completely exaggerated and I provided some video evidence which seems to go ignored when they don't suit certain people's views.

Man, seriously, pretty much everyone who has played GT5 and FM3 knows the sounds in FM3 are way better than the ones in GT5, most fanboys have dropped the issue.

I don't want a flame war, I love GT, I just hate the sounds of the engines, they're just horrible, always have been. I could always live with it, but in a time of HD sound and 13 years of development I expect a lot better. (personally I think it's plain absurd that PD can't get the engine sounds right, they're just as important as the graphics)

 

[Bogie 19th]

Typical response as everyone here expected. You can't hold an argument, so you try to be funny.

Oh the irony. Not that we are surprised

 

[G.T.Ace]

Man, seriously, pretty much everyone who has played GT5 and FM3 knows the sounds in FM3 are way better than the ones in GT5

Only the engines though, echo, doppler, wind and tires sound better in GT5.

 

[prymet1me]

I'm gonna be completely straight with you at this point. I really don't care what you think. I was posting the videos as evidence to support my statements, not to change your mind.

Great come back bro.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Only the engines though, echo, doppler, wind and tires sound better in GT5.

I agree with the bold above. Wind in GT5 spanks Forza (wind seems non existent in Forza). Tires however, are HORRIBLE in GT5.

Echo, I haven't paid any attention to. I have no clue what doppler is.

 

[G.T.Ace]

The tire noises are a lot more realistic in GT5 than they are in Forza, it's not PDs fault the it sounds horrible in real life too. In FM3 every car sounds like it weighs 10 tons, never mind if it's a LMP or an SUV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

And the echo in the GT5 replays is awesome too, you can still hear the cars from really far away, also noticable in the pre-race screen, when they are passing the camera. GT5 also has a latency simulated, when a car is far away from the camera, you can see things like downshifts (backfire) slightly before you hear them (dunno if Forza has that, but it would be hard to notice because there's no backfire effect).

Like I said, the engine sounds in FM3 are better, but the soundengine is better in GT5.

 

[McLaren]

Oh the irony. Not that we are surprised

There is no irony and there is no "we". Only someone who can't answer my post with a straight answer.

 

[Jay]

GT5 also has a latency simulated, when a car is far away from the camera, you can see things like downshifts (backfire) slightly before you hear them (dunno if Forza has that, but it would be hard to notice because there's no backfire effect).

First time I have seen someone else mention this, I love watching the HUD during replays just so I can check out the latency of sound vs down and upshifts as the car gets further away, amuses me greatly.

 

[prymet1me]

The tire noises are a lot more realistic in GT5 than they are in Forza, it's not PDs fault the it sounds horrible in real life too. In FM3 every car sounds like it weighs 10 tons, never mind if it's a LMP or an SUV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

And the echo in the GT5 replays is awesome too, you can still hear the cars from really far away, also noticable in the pre-race screen, when they are passing the camera. GT5 also has a latency simulated, when a car is far away from the camera, you can see things like downshifts (backfire) slightly before you hear them (dunno if Forza has that, but it would be hard to notice because there's no backfire effect).

Like I said, the engine sounds in FM3 are better, but the soundengine is better in GT5.

Right on the money. Its just so weird how some things in GT5 are extremely detailed and some others are overlooked. GT5 replays are visual and audio awesomeness, I did a practice lap on the ring in my ZR1 RM and the replay angles were so good it was frightening at times almost realistic, first time I snapped photos on a replay.

Its just so good to have both games, one feels hungry and one looks like it might be resting on success a little.

 

[G.T.Ace]

First time I have seen someone else mention this, I love watching the HUD during replays just so I can check out the latency of sound vs down and upshifts as the car gets further away, amuses me greatly.

This might sound like I need some sort or therapy.... but I loved this effect in Ace Combat (4, 5, Zero on the PS2), I actually dropped bombs or shot rockets at the ground in free flight and pulled up to a certain height, you could see the explosions and after a short while you heard this really deep "woom". Awesome times.

 

[deftonesmx17]

Tyres are the single biggest factor in determining a cars stopping distance, uprated brakes (assuming the current system is up to the job) will not stop you any quicker at all.


Source - http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakebiasandperformance.shtml

Uprated brakes will allow you stop from speed repeatedly, with less fade, better feel and better modulation. What they will not do, as long as the current brakes are capable of locking the tyres up, is stop you any quicker.

Real world physics here, tyres are the main factor in determining stopping distances, ahead of a cars weight, load transfer, rotor size, etc.


Scaff

Did you even read all my posts?

I am glad you agree how silly that is.


You are correct, better brakes by themselves don't actually stop a car faster. It's everything combined, but notice how you mention heat multiple times? You're probably doing so as it is a very important factor when it comes to racing. This is why I am so concerned over temperature or wear not being calculated here. A vanilla brake system would not be able to withstand all the heat generated from turn heavy road circuit racing, just for a couple of laps even. Since normal brakes would not allow for this constantly added heat to dissipate quickly enough, they would in turn overheat and thus fail to function properly. The fact that it seems temperature/wear is left out of the braking equation, makes whatever equations are calculating these physics to be fundamentally flawed. How can such an important element of racing logic such as the brakes and temperature/wear be overlooked in what is supposed to be a simulation?
At least Forza takes brake wear into account...

ABS is actually most effective when and where traction is optimal, all while activating less like you said. If traction is optimal an ABS equipped car would have a shorter stopping distance than the same car without ABS equipped brakes. This is due to human error that keeps an individual from staying at optimal pedal pressure or optimal pulsating of the pedal. Granted, a highly trained race car driver may be able to do better, but that is irrelevant as people playing a video game, even using the wheels, are not sitting in and pushing the brake pedal of a real car nor are they highly trained. And now I am getting off-topic.

Just found interesting that the most experienced teams in Forza agreed with C&D and most of the people wich played both games, unlike a minority here.

Again, 4 people from that team of 23 means nothing and is almost irrelevant.

It could be a formula based purely on entering numbers for things like weight, whether the car is FW/RW/AW, etc.

Gran Turismo is guilty of this and it was pointed out when GT4 released.

The idea of you assuming laziness is hilarious though. Maybe it wasn't laziness but more of an issue with prioritizing and/or time management.

If they have a problem with prioritizing or time management, they should not be game developers or developers in general. In the corporate world, if you can never get things done on time, like ever, you would be deemed as a poor employee or lazy.
Every car accepts basically the exact same upgrade parts...the only thing that differs is if it will take a turbo or supercharger. How was that not a lazy design choice?
Fully customizable transmission that does not allow individual gear ratio changes, only an overall change. How is that not contradicting and lazy?
Damage model that is a complete joke. Collision system that is a joke. Both seem like lazy attempts, or these devs know nothing about collision physics. Considering a collisioin physic is like physics 101, if you can't do that right, how on earth can they nail down complete racing physics?
How long was the game in development? and...
Only about 200 of the cars made the jump from PS2 models to PS3 models? I'm sorry, but most of the PS2 quality cars still handle exactly like they did in GT4, which is way behind nowadays.
People have built complete from the ground up games in less time. GT5 is not from the ground up either. It started as GTHD, which was HD GT4 engine. Then it moved to Prolouge, which was GTHD with new physics. And here we are now with GT5 that is nothing more than GT5P with altered physics. The tracks are so flat it is obvious many were taken from GT4 and just had high res textures and HDR added.
Maybe Kaz should spend less time doing interviews and out participating in races and more time doing his job.
Why is it that almost every review indirectly syas it feels like a product of lazy development.

 

[Scaff]

Did you bother to read all my posts

Oh yes I've read all your posts, which is exactly why you got issued a warning for abusive comments, going around the swear filter, general attitude and borderline trolling.

Add in that you appear to have an inconsistent and/or flawed understanding of both real world physics and simulation modeling and I felt that the point was worth remaking.

Oh, and all your posts will continue to be read, keep that AUP in mind.


Scaff

 

[Jay]

This might sound like I need some sort or therapy.... but I loved this effect in Ace Combat (4, 5, Zero on the PS2), I actually dropped bombs or shot rockets at the ground in free flight and pulled up to a certain height, you could see the explosions and after a short while you heard this really deep "woom". Awesome times.

Haha maybe, I had similar experieces with it but in Silent hunter Sub sim games. A Ship blows up a few thousand metres away and you have to wait for the sound to arrive. I like touches like this.

 

[IncredibleMind]

Man, seriously, pretty much everyone who has played GT5 and FM3 knows the sounds in FM3 are way better than the ones in GT5, most fanboys have dropped the issue.

I don't want a flame war, I love GT, I just hate the sounds of the engines, they're just horrible, always have been. I could always live with it, but in a time of HD sound and 13 years of development I expect a lot better. (personally I think it's plain absurd that PD can't get the engine sounds right, they're just as important as the graphics)

First of all, you've already indicated you don't even own the game. Nothing you say or misrepresent as fact even matters.

I find it hilarious how you fanboys get owned with video footage so you then go to making general statements without a shred of evidence. The whole "everyone knows" argument is so pathetic that I don't even thnk you take yourself serious.

 

[Bogie 19th]

The tire noises are a lot more realistic in GT5 than they are in Forza

Actually, no.

And the echo in the GT5 replays is awesome too, you can still hear the cars from really far away, also noticable in the pre-race screen, when they are passing the camera. GT5 also has a latency simulated, when a car is far away from the camera, you can see things like downshifts (backfire) slightly before you hear them (dunno if Forza has that, but it would be hard to notice because there's no backfire effect).

Awesome, I will have to check that out closer in replays.

There is no irony and there is no "we". Only someone who can't answer my post with a straight answer.

If you say so 👍

 

[IncredibleMind]

Did you even read all my posts?




Again, 4 people from that team of 23 means nothing and is almost irrelevant.


Gran Turismo is guilty of this and it was pointed out when GT4 released.


If they have a problem with prioritizing or time management, they should not be game developers or developers in general. In the corporate world, if you can never get things done on time, like ever, you would be deemed as a poor employee or lazy.
Every car accepts basically the exact same upgrade parts...the only thing that differs is if it will take a turbo or supercharger. How was that not a lazy design choice?
Fully customizable transmission that does not allow individual gear ratio changes, only an overall change. How is that not contradicting and lazy?
Damage model that is a complete joke. Collision system that is a joke. Both seem like lazy attempts, or these devs know nothing about collision physics. Considering a collisioin physic is like physics 101, if you can't do that right, how on earth can they nail down complete racing physics?
How long was the game in development? and...
Only about 200 of the cars made the jump from PS2 models to PS3 models? I'm sorry, but most of the PS2 quality cars still handle exactly like they did in GT4, which is way behind nowadays.
People have built complete from the ground up games in less time. GT5 is not from the ground up either. It started as GTHD, which was HD GT4 engine. Then it moved to Prolouge, which was GTHD with new physics. And here we are now with GT5 that is nothing more than GT5P with altered physics. The tracks are so flat it is obvious many were taken from GT4 and just had high res textures and HDR added.
Maybe Kaz should spend less time doing interviews and out participating in races and more time doing his job.
Why is it that almost every review indirectly syas it feels like a product of lazy development.

You have very little idea what you are talking about.

If you actually played GT5 instead of focusing on a list of all the negative data written on the internet instead of it's overwhelming advantages such as the DRIVING PHYSICS, you wouldn't expose yourself so severely. Your poor analogy is that "because PD didn't excel in x area, they can't get the driving right" is failure.

Why? Aside from a handfull of people in complete denial, the people who have actually played the game know the driving is it's strength. The reviews that you reference even mention it but you conveniently ignore it because it doesn't fit your views.

LOL@ the tracks being flat.

LOL@ you annointing yourself as the CEO of the gaming industry and deciding who should and shouldn't be developing when these people have multi million dollar companies.

LOL@ you griping over the collision physics and damage when there isn't a single game out there that actually has this right beyond visual cues.

LOL@you proclaiming that the engine from GT5p is the same as version 4 when it's been stated repeatedly that the engine was completely built from scratch.

If the only half decent argument you have is that you can't adjust individual gear ratios it just shows how credible your arguments are.

They aren't.

@Bogie do you even play GT5 at all? The tire sounds in GT5 are far more realistic.

Also, how exactly do you not notice the doppler effect if you've spent any appreciable amount of time with the game?

I have no idea how you reach many of your conclusions IF you're actually playing GT5. It's almost as if you're in an alternate part of the universe where the laws of physics bend for no one but yourself.

 

[McLaren]

If you say so 👍

The thing is it isn't just me....

If you don't want to answer my question or explain why you ignore everyone who has made valid points against you, just say so. That way the rest of us know to leave your posts alone.

 

[TT3AZ]

Really the physics of GT5 is much better, and gt5 online play is more fun than forza 3, cause you can create public lobbys and have 16 players online, while forza only allows private lobbys and 8 players = less people and small variation of folks and cars.

Forza 3 has many good things though, and that is all cars are "premium" and the modding is unbeatable with licensed body kits etc.

I cant bare forza 3 after playing gt5, but it will be inresting to see that forza 4 will be like. I really hope they will increase online players to 16+ and the ability to create public lobbys.

 

[Bogie 19th]

We got all day. Let us know when you are done.

 

[prymet1me]

First of all, you've already indicated you don't even own the game. Nothing you say or misrepresent as fact even matters.

I find it hilarious how you fanboys get owned with video footage so you then go to making general statements without a shred of evidence. The whole "everyone knows" argument is so pathetic that I don't even thnk you take yourself serious.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=157282

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=119772&highlight=sound

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=105563&highlight=sound

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=150878&highlight=sound

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=143747&highlight=sound

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=136494&highlight=sound

Keep preaching about GT5 sounds.

 

[IncredibleMind]

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=157282

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=119772&highlight=sound

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=105563&highlight=sound

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=150878&highlight=sound

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=143747&highlight=sound

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=136494&highlight=sound

Keep preaching about GT5 sounds.

This is borderline trollish. I never one time said that GT5 had better or worse engine sounds than Forza and it amazes me that you continue to misrepresent my messages.

I basically said that the sound effects in GT5, specifically the tires and especially the doppler effects are better in GT5. I even said I understand people being displeased with the engine sounds in cockpit view in GT5 but for some reason this alludes you completely.

In some of those instances that you listed the engine samples were actually updated and you'd know that if you actually spent time playing the game instead of searching for faults.

Oh yeah I forgot, you're the one and only guy who thinks hood view in GT5 is unplayable. It doesn't surprise me that you're having trouble comprehending what I'm saying.

 

[prymet1me]

This is borderline trollish. I never one time said that GT5 had better or worse engine sounds than Forza and it amazes me that you continue to misrepresent my messages.

I basically said that the sound effects in GT5, specifically the tires and especially the doppler effects are better in GT5. I even said I understand people being displeased with the engine sounds in cockpit view in GT5 but for some reason this alludes you completely.

In some of those instances that you listed the engine samples were actually updated and you'd know that if you actually spent time playing the game instead of searching for faults.

Oh yeah I forgot, you're the one and only guy who thinks hood view in GT5 is unplayable. It doesn't surprise me that you're having trouble comprehending what I'm saying.

Sure buddy. Nice try with the hood cam, I said I (you know as in myself) find the hood cam sits too high and cant play the game like that, I (you know as in myself) find the hood cam in FM much better. I do play the game, racing my AC Cobra 66 reminded me of the blender sound. Nice try with the "trollish" defense btw.