General Questions

  • Thread starter Thread starter Orion
  • 2,283 comments
  • 107,704 views
Status
Not open for further replies.
[meddles with things he doesn't comprehend]
Surely one condensate is very much like the other condensate?
[/meddles with things he doesn't comprehend]
 
There's 6 states of matter - solid, liquid, gas, plasma, Fermionic Condensate and Bose-Einstein Condensate.

However, fire isn't matter - it's energy (specifically heat and light energy). Fire itself has no mass, though may contain burning particles which do and a small amount of matter in a plasma state.

They simply don't teach you that in high school. I suspected it was energy, but then I wondered why it doesn't shoot off like a beam of light?
 
You only see fire when fuel, oxygen and a spark interact. Get too far from the fuel and there's none to react with. Get too close to the fuel and there's no oxygen to react with. So you end up with a minimum and a maximum boundary for fire. The spark part is self-sustaining within this flame region - which is always changing as fuel and oxygen are consumed or added to the reaction, leading to the dancing effect of flames and the nature of how they spread.


What's a far trickier question is that, if there are 7 characteristics of life (Excretion [carbon dioxide], Growth, Movement, Nutrition [fuel, oxygen], Reproduction, Respiration, Sensitivity) and fire fits all of them, why isn't fire considered living?
 
Famine, you're not allowed to ask questions. Only answer them. :p
 

What's a far trickier question is that, if there are 7 characteristics of life (Excretion [carbon dioxide], Growth, Movement, Nutrition [fuel, oxygen], Reproduction, Respiration, Sensitivity) and fire fits all of them, why isn't fire considered living?

While non-scientific, I have known quite a few fire-fighters over the years and almost all of them have considered fire to be a 'living' thing.

As I say non-scientific, but vaguely interesting all the same.

Regards


Scaff
 

What's a far trickier question is that, if there are 7 characteristics of life (Excretion [carbon dioxide], Growth, Movement, Nutrition [fuel, oxygen], Reproduction, Respiration, Sensitivity) and fire fits all of them, why isn't fire considered living?

Probably because its not a living thing. :p
 
You only see fire when fuel, oxygen and a spark interact. Get too far from the fuel and there's none to react with. Get too close to the fuel and there's no oxygen to react with. So you end up with a minimum and a maximum boundary for fire. The spark part is self-sustaining within this flame region - which is always changing as fuel and oxygen are consumed or added to the reaction, leading to the dancing effect of flames and the nature of how they spread.


What's a far trickier question is that, if there are 7 characteristics of life (Excretion [carbon dioxide], Growth, Movement, Nutrition [fuel, oxygen], Reproduction, Respiration, Sensitivity) and fire fits all of them, why isn't fire considered living?

That makes perfect sense to me, cheers. As for the living part, they don't really fit sensitivity do they? The fire has never evolved to be able to burn in environments where it normally can't, or anything like that.

Here's a question, what's Famine's IQ?:sly: You seem to know a lot on a hell of a lot of subjects.
 
That makes perfect sense to me, cheers. As for the living part, they don't really fit sensitivity do they? The fire has never evolved to be able to burn in environments where it normally can't, or anything like that.

Here's a question, what's Famine's IQ?:sly: You seem to know a lot on a hell of a lot of subjects.

I have a hunch that he's Steven Hawking in disguise! 💡
 
He's a quantum anomaly.

I wouldn't consider fire a truly living being because it's a phenomena, a reaction between two things that changes according to the environment. I wouldn't consider humans as living either if they were spawned from the collision of two rocks, or because oxygen, a flammable substance and a spark were mixed. Also, it's like water flowing or pressurized air - just like air follows the path of least resistance and water flows to whatever direction gravity dictates, fire burns whatever is flammable around it, assuming enough oxygen is available...
 
Probably because its not a living thing. :p

It fits all seven standard definitions for living things. Many things we consider to be living only fit 6... Viruses, for example.

That makes perfect sense to me, cheers. As for the living part, they don't really fit sensitivity do they? The fire has never evolved to be able to burn in environments where it normally can't, or anything like that.

Sensitivity really applies to whether something changes in response to external stimuli. Fire certainly does that - blow and it flickers. It does funky things in zero or microgravity.

Here's a question, what's Famine's IQ?:sly: You seem to know a lot on a hell of a lot of subjects.

That's because I have a low attention span and like information. I pick up all sorts of crap on all sorts of things, but I don't really go very deep on much. Except molecular biology :D

I haven't had my IQ properly measured in ages, but the last IQ test I did a couple of years ago came out at 174 - which was about the same as when it was professionally measured. But a high (or low) IQ isn't really a measure of smarts. Most IQ tests are based on puzzle solving and spatial orientation which only really reveal your ability to learn things, rather than what you know. I might rate higher for IQ than a professor of botany who can speak 8 languages (including Klingon) but I probably know less than they do.


Nevertheless, I am a pub quiz gun-for-hire :D


He's a quantum anomaly.

I wouldn't consider fire a truly living being because it's a phenomena, a reaction between two things that changes according to the environment. I wouldn't consider humans as living either if they were spawned from the collision of two rocks, or because oxygen, a flammable substance and a spark were mixed. Also, it's like water flowing or pressurized air - just like air follows the path of least resistance and water flows to whatever direction gravity dictates, fire burns whatever is flammable around it, assuming enough oxygen is available...

Most living things are natural phenomena - they just require a larger set of conditions...
 

What's a far trickier question is that, if there are 7 characteristics of life (Excretion [carbon dioxide], Growth, Movement, Nutrition [fuel, oxygen], Reproduction, Respiration, Sensitivity) and fire fits all of them, why isn't fire considered living?

Because it's not made of matter?
 
I'm not even aware of "being made of matter" as a prerequisite for life.

As I said, there are some lifeforms that don't meet all 7 conditions, yet are alive. There are some things that do meet all 7 conditions, yet aren't. However, the conditions are always subject to review. A central theme of many episodes of sci-fi programmes and films is just where the boundaries of life are.
 
So it's because the characteristics were thought of by humans and are ultimately flawed so there have to be exceptions.
 
What's a far trickier question is that, if there are 7 characteristics of life (Excretion [carbon dioxide], Growth, Movement, Nutrition [fuel, oxygen], Reproduction, Respiration, Sensitivity) and fire fits all of them, why isn't fire considered living?

I think it is because Fire doesn’t have cells, like all other living creatures
 
LdS
I think it is because Fire doesn’t have cells, like all other living creatures

Viruses don't have cells.

We all know fire isn't alive. Just 'cos. But not many of us have a valid scientific explanation behind the "'cos".
 
Viruses don't have cells.

We all know fire isn't alive. Just 'cos. But not many of us have a valid scientific explanation behind the "'cos".

So what kinds of things are alive but not made of matter?
 
Sensitivity really applies to whether something changes in response to external stimuli. Fire certainly does that - blow and it flickers. It does funky things in zero or microgravity.



That's because I have a low attention span and like information. I pick up all sorts of crap on all sorts of things, but I don't really go very deep on much. Except molecular biology :D

I haven't had my IQ properly measured in ages, but the last IQ test I did a couple of years ago came out at 174 - which was about the same as when it was professionally measured. But a high (or low) IQ isn't really a measure of smarts. Most IQ tests are based on puzzle solving and spatial orientation which only really reveal your ability to learn things, rather than what you know. I might rate higher for IQ than a professor of botany who can speak 8 languages (including Klingon) but I probably know less than they do.


Nevertheless, I am a pub quiz gun-for-hire :D




Most living things are natural phenomena - they just require a larger set of conditions...

Maybe you should work for Zoo.💡 They have the pub ammo at the end of every mag, plus you'd be around for photo shoots.:drool: But then again, I know you're capable of far better.
I know what you mean about the IQ tests, they're also time limited aren't they? I normally can't figure out things as quick as others, but in the end I can understand and solve more things than others if given that little bit of extra time.
I thought viruses were cellular?
 
So what kinds of things are alive but not made of matter?

Who knows?

We only have experience of things on our planet (and not even all of that) and what we know of it shows us that all living things have 7 characteristics - except some things which we don't consider living fit the same characteristics and some things we do consider living don't fit them all. Every now and then, the definitions get redefined to fit what we know to be true - and when we get out into "alien" environments, we may have to start redefining again.

All living things we know of are organic - carbon-based, with hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus and trace amounts of other elements. But there's no reason I can think of why I should sit here and tell you that there is anything in the universe which isn't carbon based (or even matter-based) and not living. It's a big old place.
 
I haven't had my IQ properly measured in ages, but the last IQ test I did a couple of years ago came out at 174 - which was about the same as when it was professionally measured.

Damnit. My wiener just shrank six inches. I've got IQ envy. I only test between 135 and 140.

----

So it's because the characteristics were thought of by humans and are ultimately flawed so there have to be exceptions.

I think that's probably the answer.

Life doesn't have to be made of matter. E-life (automata grown on a computer) can exhibit the same kind of behavior as actual life. So what if they're artificial? Who's to say that the entire universe isn't just a simulation run on a quantum computer?

----

I wonder, given infinite fuel and infinite time, could fire actually evolve? Fire is never anything but fire when we see it, but as Famine says... it's sensitive. It seeks out fuel, it moves around, grows... (insert Backdraft reference here where arson investigator does psychological profiling on fire)...

It took four billion years for carbon life to evole... how long would it take fire life to evolve?
 
Life doesn't have to be made of matter. E-life (automata grown on a computer) can exhibit the same kind of behavior as actual life. So what if they're artificial? Who's to say that the entire universe isn't just a simulation run on a quantum computer?

I don't consider automatas life, since as the name implies: they're automated. They react without thinking based on a clear set of rules - even "thinking" automatas are predictable assuming you have the code, since they evaluate each variable according to a set of preset definitions to reach a logical (to them) solution. Even when the weight of a variable is dynamic, it's not real "thought". You could argue that a human is predictable, but there is still the "free thought" and random decisions that a human (or other creature) may take. A mechanism ruled by a defined set of base rules (because even learning automatas need a few base rules) will never be considered a living thing in my eyes.
 
I don't consider automatas life, since as the name implies: they're automated. They react without thinking based on a clear set of rules - even "thinking" automatas are predictable assuming you have the code, since they evaluate each variable according to a set of preset definitions to reach a logical (to them) solution. Even when the weight of a variable is dynamic, it's not real "thought". You could argue that a human is predictable, but there is still the "free thought" and random decisions that a human (or other creature) may take. A mechanism ruled by a defined set of base rules (because even learning automatas need a few base rules) will never be considered a living thing in my eyes.

Haven't you seen I-Robot?:scared::lol:
 
I'm not even aware of "being made of matter" as a prerequisite for life.
If we define "life" based on our experiences on this planet, it would seem that, to be alive, you must be made of matter. We know carbon-based need not be the case, but certainly there has to be "something" there...
Damnit. My wiener just shrank six inches. I've got IQ envy. I only test between 135 and 140.
You and I are on same short bus :lol:.
 
:lol:

I don't consider automatas life, since as the name implies: they're automated. They react without thinking based on a clear set of rules - even "thinking" automatas are predictable assuming you have the code, since they evaluate each variable according to a set of preset definitions to reach a logical (to them) solution. Even when the weight of a variable is dynamic, it's not real "thought". You could argue that a human is predictable, but there is still the "free thought" and random decisions that a human (or other creature) may take. A mechanism ruled by a defined set of base rules (because even learning automatas need a few base rules) will never be considered a living thing in my eyes.

All life is governed by mathematical rules. The basic difference between a bacterium and a computer-simulated cellular automaton is the level of complexity of both the organism itself and the environment.

Your basic computer-generated cellular automaton isn't even as complicated, mathematically, as one of the millions (or billions... I don't rightly know) of molecules that makes up one bacterium. And the neural networks of the most advanced robots today are nowhere near as complex as those in your common mosquito. Yet those cellular automata or robots can still exhibit the same behavior as bacteria and insects, given the right rule-set or programming.

Captain Kirk's vaunted human "unpredictability" is due to the fact that we live in a very fuzzy environment, where the mathematical principles that guide our behaviour must deal with environmental stimuli that are very complex from a mathematical standpoint. Thus, we use "fuzzy" logic to guide us... to side-step the math, which is too complicated to do within a reasonably short period of time. Computers can use fuzzy logic, too... and it's becoming more and more common. You'd be surprised at how many computer brains use fuzzy logic instead of binary logic nowadays... from airconditioners to cameras to cars to video games...

But then, this life has not "evolved"... which is a conundrum. But it's possible to create A-life that uses fuzzy logic, interacts with an A-environment, grows, reproduces and etcetera... and does this all in a very organic manner.

If we want "spontaneous" A-life... Given enough computing power... it may be theoretically possible to mathematically describe the universe. Set a simulation running, on a big enough scale, and it may be possible to "evolve" life within this computerized universe (after a few billion computing hours...)

Sure, from our point of view, it will be limited, predictable, and artificial. But the same strictures that apply to it also apply to us. We will both be trapped within a matrix from which we cannot escape (for them, the virtual universe, for us, the "real" universe), with seemingly complex organic structures and behaviors which have evolved from very fundamental mathematical laws.
 
Last edited:
Maybe fire isn't a living thing because God didn't want it to be. :bowdown: Even so, all fire is is the product of several different chemical reactions. Plus, it contains NO CELLS. :dunce:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back