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Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by steamcat, Jul 31, 2012.
You have a very close sound in Assetto Corsa by a japanese Modder, his 1.3 sound mod for this car is amazing...
Another video to show the way PC sims achieved in term of sound since RRE3 sound revolution.... The official C9 in Assetto Corsa is just awesome to hear in trackside:
Let's hope GT7 will be at least on par with PC sims...
These videos have an awesome sounds... So the 787B's sound isn't close to real sound, right?
That C9 is using separate "far-field" recordings, first used in iRacing, then pCARS (same guy; EDIT: Greg Hill). PD will use filters for the same effect, because they are generating sounds, not playing back pre-recorded ones; that means they need to apply that filter regardless of where the sounds are being heard from.
So, for GT7 onwards, the sounds are not limited to just in-car and far-field, but everything in-between and beyond, with no extra authoring load (the filters can be handled procedurally) and no extra assets in memory.
With the Assetto Corsa example, it is wrong to use the far-field recordings when the car is close, it would have more impact and realism if they could switch to less coloured versions, but that's another set of samples to manage...
It does sound good when the visuals match, and it's only really possible because lots of long samples can be used now, i.e. there is lots of memory available for sound.
It's sounds very realistic to me. I went a lot to Le Mans and other track Weekends when I was younger and track side is as close as it can be considering the actual technology. In GT, the engine sound is so metallic, so digital and there is no color and richness to it... it's bland and monotonous
It is "real", because it's effectively a recording. It's not realistic to pitch-shift it, though...
PD have no way of adding the aeroacoustic "signature" (yet), and the reverb is nowhere near sophisticated enough to account for all the environmental effects captured in the recordings used to make the samples for the C9 (yet). They are committed to generating sounds (primarily for the content benefit), not playing back doctored recordings, so they will have to tackle those problems at some point. But that's fine, because they'll eventually be more expressive than recordings ever could be anyway.
And that's exactly why I'm so excited to see their work.
I've been playing with the Lexus vision GT and it's absolutely stunning. I did a little test at S.S.R 7 in the tunnel... O.O
I know there is going to be people saying, but those cars "aren't real", that the sound could be actually better..... and I know, there is work to do, but for me, they're already in the right path with little glimpses they are showing.
Another thing plenty of people tend to criticize is when somebody says that you need to have a Home Theatre to fully appreciate the sound of the game, and it's true. That being said, that doesn't mean that using a HT is going to change the samples or the sound generated by the cars, what is going to add is the 5.1/7.1 sound to the mix. And that's amazingly incredible. You just can't deny that fact. When you use one of the cars that actually have a good sound and you turn off the music and turn up the volume it's one of the most awesome feelings you can have...I was smiling like a kid with the Lexus. I even recorded it with my cellphone to show it to a friend hahaha....
BUT, again, that doesn't mean that is going to change the horrible sounds for the rest of the cars but it is definetly going to add a lot dimension to the game. When you think about it, there is people complaning about R3E O.O
Another simple thing I'd love to "add "is that I've realized that a lot of cars produce a lovely engine sound, but most of the time you can't actually hear them in real life because of the wind noise while passing. I know it sounds kind of silly but I heard that a lot lately...
Obviously, that doesn't happen with all of the cars in the game, but it's there and it happens with stock cars, which is just as in real life. NOT ALWAYS, but it happens.
Excellent examples of what can be done with the "old" samples system. They are very immersive when used in the game, combined with the excellent physics/FFB and sharp visuals it can be very convincing. Remains to be seen if PD's new AES system can be as convincing.
It's nothing to do with AES. That's just the engine sounds.
What this is is acoustic transfer, and that's something PD are also working on (it's actually been in the game in some form since GT5P, so PD are well on their way already).
IMHO, I don't think full digital sound engine will ever work as well as good raw samples technology (which is evolving as well - not so old): now you have intake/outake separate layers, trackside engine separated from in-cockpit sound, dynamic spatial effects... it's not really the samples, it's the mixing of more and more layers of samples which give us a little taste of the future in these video).
For me the Full digital way is a dead end, at least in the next 10 years. It's like a digital violin vs a real one, full digital Violin engine will never be able to translate the full richness of the sound of a real violin, especially because of all the external natural effects (materials, air, weather...) that gives the natural raw sound his superior edge over any digital-made sample.
Sample sound technology is here to stay, with the power of today and tomorrow computers, the mix of more samples will be even richer and samples even less compressed which in the end will gives us an experience very close of a race week end's track side experience. I don't see GT7 to be a revolution in term of sound, especially if they only believe and rely on this digital technology.
Believe it or not, engines are far simpler than violins. 1:1 representations already exist. The only issue is computational power, which will be overcome in time by a combination of psychoacoustic and algorithmic optimisation, plus hardware improvement.
The above uses samples. But those samples were originally synthesised, not taken from recordings.
Compare with Soundracer, using samples from recordings:
The advantage with the simulation is the samples can be "pre-modified" to suit the playback step, so it sounds more natural.
Internal sounds are always easier than trackside. It is why a lot of PC sims already have almost nailed the internal sound. Trackside is another story and could relate more with what I said about the violin (material parts of the engine and the surrounding parts, imperfection, air and wind, where you are standing from the sound you hear, etc..). Nailing the trackside experience with a full digital engine will require more than few years to achieve (compared to the sample technology which is evolving in the good way with the power of our computers). Our ears are such a wonderful piece of technology and we can easily distinguish the natural raw from its digital counterpart. I don't say it will always be like this, but not in the next 10-15 years from now.
When you show me an external reel (trackside) from a full digital engine, I would believe you.
The reason internal sounds are better represented in games is because they're less dynamic - the sounds do not move relative to each other or the listener. So the fixed nature of samples is less of a hindrance. That very fixed nature is why external sounds are so hit and miss.
When synthesising sounds from scratch, internal is much harder than external!
I'm sorry, but I don't think that samples per se are evolving, what is evolving is is the processing power of the consoles and PCs. If you think about it, the only way they are actually evolving is the capacity to add more sounds, samples, to the whole mix, but you're going to be, always, limited by the amount of samples you've recorded.
That's why I'm excited to see their work, if it's true and it works, we could be hearing, or staring, or whatever, at something quite unique. Even more, if that's actually physics based, then yes, it definitely would be really something.
It's the same with every piece of technology, when it's new, everybody is complaining or criticizing it, but in this case we didn't see a single thing of the finished product. We don't even know if this new system it's actually something doable on PS4 because we don't know the goals that PD or Kaz are trying to achieve, so, until we hear it we can't say a thing. We can doubt about it, but we can't review it because we don't have it....
Found this posted on WMD: http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2015/05/02/former-forza-audio-lead-now-working-gran-turismo-7/
So the former Forza audio lead is now working on GT7. There may be hope yet.
That was posted elsewhere a few days ago in another thread. (think there's even a news post about it)
Sounds from the game Stock Car Extreme by Reiza Studios:
I posted that a couple of months ago, nice to hear it again. I challenge anyone to close their eyes and play that video and say which one is the real car and which one the recording