GM to Ally with Nissan-Renault? Probably Not Going to Happen (10/4/2006)

  • Thread starter Thread starter YSSMAN
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Well that and I think Ghosn isn't fit to run an American company that is allready in a transition phase lead by Wagoner. Ford could have used this deal much more than GM, given that I also believe that Ford is FAR WORSE than GM right now when it comes to money and where their products stand in the market.

...Maybe they need to let enthusiests like us run Ford or GM for a while... That way we can get rid of the products nobody cares about, and actually build cars and trucks that we KNOW people would want to buy.
 
Hmmm. Getting very interesting. Toyota is the one with the history with GM. I sure would rather see Toyota-GM Alliance.
 
Quite frankly, I don't care much for Toyota, so a deal with Nissan-Renault would be one of a lesser-evil, IMO. Granted I suppose they allready have worked together in the past and have actually done some good together, but I'm still on the fence for both of them. I'd be interested to hear how Honda views the deal as well, as I belive they have a partnership with GM on a few of their V6 engines and OnStar (are they still using OnStar in Acuras? They were using them in VWs for a while too...?) as well.

What is preventing a company like Peugeot-Citroen from approaching GM as well? Atleast with that deal we could stand to get some sort of benefit of technology in the form of diesel power and maybe a few suspension secrets from the folks at Citroen.

...I dunno anymore. On one hand, there are an infinitie ammount of possibilities out there for GM with both positives and negatives in partnerships with many different companies. On the other, they are begining to be set in their ways, and there are the worries of GM no longer feeling like an "American/European" company like it has for so many years...
 
In Australia,

70's Mazda-Holden sharing (briefly)
80's Nissan-Holden sharing
90's Toyota-Holden sharing

Personally I would like to see GM stay GM, unless they have serious troubles pulling themselves out of their financial problems. They seem to be turning themselves around ok so far.
 
According to Leftlanenews, some Toyota Spokesman said that they haven't talked to GM whatsoever, so the rumor posted above wasn't true.
 
I also saw the headline on CNN, I don't know where it originates from.
 
Another tid-bit:

Leftlanenews.com
Renault-Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn said today an alliance with General Motors would not necessarily require an acquisition of shares. "We are not making the capital investment inside General Motors as the first element or condition," Ghosn said. Rumors have suggested Renault and Nissan may want to buy as much as 20 percent of GM. Ghosn said he respects GM's patriotic importance to America. "I am totally aware General Motors is an icon in the U.S.," he said. "Because I know that, I don't believe in anything hostile. I believe this has to be a strong partnership."
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A.K.A. If GM tanks, he doesn't want Renault-Nissan to go with it. Which is a smart move more multiple reasons, it must be said.
 
Smart words by Ghosn. Of course, buying those shares was more of Kerkorian's agenda than his... The way Kerkorian would've seen it, his % + Renault's % = majority, so that he could get the votes to do what he wants...

Ford needing Nissan-Renault? Hmmm.... except for the lack of a decent V6 (which Mazda is already working to remedy, and which Ford is reportedly getting from their joint-venture with GM and the upcoming 3.5 liter plant), Ford really doesn't need much except to learn how to make and market Fords.

They already have some of the best chassis development out there, thanks to Ford of Europe and Mazda. They now have access to a wide variety of platforms for sharing and cost saving. They have good designers scattered amongst their sub-brands. They have competitive products in many markets.

But just not in the US... Ford's biggest market, and its Achilles heel.

It takes a really idiotic design and marketing team to take what are arguably some of the best current economy cars out there: (the Mazda3 and Mazda6) and turn them into cars that nobody is interested in. Are these the same people that managed to turn the slow-selling LS into the hot-selling Mustang? What's going on up there?

If Ford can sell Mazdas, Volvos and Astons well... why can't they do the same for Fords?... and, errh... Jaguars?
 
The Fusion seems to be selling well here in Michigan, but I think the problem is that Ford claims that it is a "leader" in the American automotive industry when it is quite clear that they have been a follower since the early '90s. Yes, the Taurus proved that America could build a car to rival that of the Accord and Camry, but the Intrepid completely overshadowed it, and all Ford has had since then was the F-150, Explorer and Mustang.

...But now, the F-150 is dead in the water when compared to some trucks from Japan, and with the GMT900 on the way, it stands to lose more market share to GM in the near future. Ford can't move Explorers either anymore, and that even includes Michigan, one of the last places I'd thought I'd see the SUV market shrink.

So whats left, the Mustang?

If Ford was smart, they would combine Ford North America and Ford Europe together and sell the same cars on both sides of the pond. Their cars are argueably better than all of ours, and given GM's decision to make many of their cars European-based, and also given that most European Fords are better than that of their GM competition, whats the holdup?

I dunno about Ford. They are in worse trouble than they make it out to be, and it won't be long before Toyota comes creeping up on them to rip them out of the number two spot worldwide...
 
I think Toyota already did.

Yeah, Ford probably is in much worse trouble than they let on, but their subsidiaries are much healthier than GM's. At least the resurgence of Mazda has taken a great burden from off my chest... :lol:

And the Ford of Europe question? They tried that with the Contour, but it just didn't meet US standards. The Escort and Focus were both resounding successes. And like I've been saying, you don't have to look much further than Mazda to find the "Euro-Ford". :lol:

The trouble really, is the segregation of the Ford of US from Ford of "Everywhere Else". I think all they really need to do is look at what's working, and use that. They probably know this already, but the starched shirts at Ford of U.S of A don't seem to believe in product development. Like GM, they've been resting on their hands, confident the truck market would keep them buoyed up, through thick and thin.

They just need to think global. With the American market increasingly looking at what the rest of the world is driving (mostly due to high gas prices), a foreign slant on Ford would be good. And they don't really need an outsider to help them with it, because they already have all the right people. They've just got to know how to use them.
 
When crossed with how rediculously stubborn the Ford family is, it's unsurprising of Ford's current predicament. Not to mention how it isn't getting any better. However, niky? I prefer the C30 over the Mazda 3. The Mazda 3 just makes me miss the Protege even more.
And YSSMAN? Toyota passed Ford like two-three years ago.
 
Not like GM, who can actually fire their blundering leaders to install new blundering leaders, eh? :lol: ...sigh... of course, it's not that simple... nothing really is with a family-owned corporation. Just ask me. I'm a stockholder in one.

Actually, except for the pork, I find the 3 a much improved car... just not as involving. The looks? Well, the 6 wears them better, but looks old-fashioned as a result... but considering its competition (the Civic, the Corolla, et al), looks aren't quite as big a handicap... :lol:

The involvement thing is the same complaint, I guess, that people level at the new Miata and new BMWs... heck, even new Civics. C'est la vie... in the quest for refinement, you've got to marginalize the same old cranks (that's us) that kept you afloat when you were small... :indiff: ...most newcomers to the brand won't know what's missing... but us cranks do. :(
 
Yss: you forget where Contour/Mystique and Focus come from. Euro Market conversions. Ford Australia has also tried a shot or two...el floppo.

Niky: right on the money. the only thing that's kept ford and GM alive for the past 10 years seems to be muscle and/or trucks. at least GM has actually SPOTTED the trend back to rear drive. i heard that the reason that ford isn't doing performance is cause the great great Grandaughter of Henry is in charge of that kind of thing.
 
I think you guys are right about Ford being in trouble. If Ford R&D worked any slower, you'd think they'd be going backwards! It could be that they are in so much trouble right now that they are just trying to survive, just staying afloat.

I think Toyota did pass Ford a while back, but I think Ford was still ahead of Toyota in certain way, if I remember correctly. Like by the numbers of vehicles sold, or by profits or something like that. Overall, there is no way Ford is matching Toyota's profitability right now. In the U.S., Focus, Taurus(this one's probably already dead), Freestar(Windstar) and Crown Vics still sell strongly in fleet vehicle sales. If it wasn't for that, Ford would've been in even bigger trouble.

Edit: niky, I repped you on a wrong post. I meant to rep you on your last one. :D
 
Well, let me explain my reasoning with Ford combining it's efforts:

1) I am well aware of the blunders that were the Merkur XR4ti, Mercury Capri and Contour/Mystique... But the thing is, the cars recieved great critical success, but had little in the actual market. But I think with the needs of the American market begining to equal that of the European market, things may work out better now.

2) Ford doesn't have a cheap car to compete against the Fit, Yaris, etc. Yes, the Focus can compete on price, but in terms of refinement and quality, it feels like a car from the '90s. Wait a second... It is a car from the '90s!!!

Ford needs to bring the Fiesta here. An American Fiesta (baisically an imported German model) should sell fine here in the US, and certainly would be a better American alternative to the Fit unlike the Chevrolet Aveo. If they can sell the car for a little over $13-14K to start out, pack it full of the good standard equipement, they could use it as a Focus replacement if they really wanted to. But the problem is, it isn't a Focus, which brings me to my next point.

3) Ford needs a new Focus. The current model we have dates back to the origional design from 1998, long out-done by the likes of Honda and Toyota of which the car was actually considered a serious compeditor to all those years ago. Yes, I am well aware that the C1 chassis is expensive to produce and would push Focus base prices north of $15K to start, but with the added refinement and exponential increases in quality, I don't think the public would mind much, especially if there is a Fiesta to bolster low-end sales.

3) Ford needs to ditch the Mazda6-turn-Fusion and stick to the Mondeo. Having all of the assorted designs for all of the assorted models isn't working out, and with the next-gen Mondeo on the horizon, why not use an all-new model? The Mazda 6 chassis is begining to show it's age, despite the fact it is less than five years old. But you have to face the facts, the Mondeo is still a better car, and it is the same size. It is better looking, argueably better built, and offers more (IMO) to the American consumer than the current Sushi-Steak American model.

4) Ford needs to Figure out what to do with the Fivehundred and Crown Victoria. They canibalize both of their own sales, and while one is a faded star, the other is an upstart with little promise. Ford should bring the Fairlane here from Australia, as it can handle the slot vacated by both cars. That way, Ford will be able to finially compete with the DCX LX-Cars and the new GM Zeta/VE models.

5) Ford needs to can the Freestar and just use the S-Max here in the US. The van packs in the refinement needed to capture sales from Toyota and Honda, but would also appeal to a more specific market with it's smaller size and greater fuel economy. It still seats seven, and that is a must-have in the US market.

6) Finially, Ford needs to trim back it's truck line, or vastly improve it. Granted, the F150 is the bread-and-butter truck, but it will be far behind the competition once Nissan gets it's V6 Titan ready, Toyota releases it's all-new Tundra, and GM lets the GMT900s loose. Added to that, the Explorer needs to be improved as well. Ford relies on truck sales FAR more than GM or DCX, and that is a problem
 
RE: Model line?

1. Spot on.

2. The Fiesta is old... as old as the first gen Focus (probably). What would make more sense is to modernize the 121, Demio, or whatever the hell they call it now, and bring both Mazda and Ford versions in.

3. Spot on.

4. Five Hundred - Crown Vic? New Falcon. I think it'd tickle the police pink if their next fleet car happened to be a four-door Mustang. Like I've said, they have the plants primed for Mustangs already, why not expand volume?

5. Don't know if Americans are ready for Euro-MPVs. But then, since the Mazd5 is there, Ford already has the manufacturing capability to build the S-Max.

6. Not being in a position to know, I'd have to say I agree. In our market, it's Ford's over-reliance on sales of Expeditions that fuels its reputation for poor reliability and fuel consumption. Heck, even the Escape and Focus get that rep, as people don't realize cars from other brands (including the ever-loveable Honda) of the same weight, size and transmission type get similar mileage.
 
Yss AND niky: i know a lot of fordaholics that would be insulted by every word you just said. for some cockamamy reason ford guys are particularly rabid when it comes to their vehicle.

i don't think the "needs of the american market" will ever match those of everywhere else. remember the Contour/Mystique flopped because it was sized to European standards...and what I hear is that europeans and nearly everyone else in this world can be sitting in each other's laps and not feel like they're having their personal space violated...while americans have the need for a 6 foot personal bubble around them at all times...at least, that's what it feels like to me (blasted people and thir instruments rigged for 6 footers with ape arms :P)

people have been repeatedly drooling at Ford Australia's designs...but digging up the falcon and fairlane names in the US (not to mention if they hauled the Galaxy minivan over here...the freestar needs tossed) would immediatly invoke thoughts of gigantic muscle cars, cause nostalga, and see guys carrying picket signs up and down main street in Dearborn for not only letting the names go, but for smearing their reputations, a la Charger.

we do need the allready overhauled version of Focus. they should realize by now...you can't keep with the conservitave approach anymore. if you're gonna chop everything up and shuffle the deck every five years, then MAKE it every five years instead of facelifting everything

as for "MPV's"...remember...we don't do hatchbacks anymore. tho god knows we need more than the damn focus in the domestic market. i miss them for their usefullness, but hatches are hauling the reputations of Chevette/Omni-Horizon twins/gremlin...and every other lemon from the bad old days of 70's and 80's front drive scroogisim. if it doesn't look like a box with wheels, it's not a "UV" of any kind to anyone over fifty...who are about the only ones that have the bread to buy american.

the F series is ford's trademark along with Mustang...and it's coming up on it's big 6-0
I can't give an opinion on it, tho, as the closest I've come is my ex's brand new fleet white 06 Ranger...and that didn't look any different, really, either.

Niky: Re #6...yeah, I noticed that in reports and magazines reviews all the time. even hondas drop to 12-16 (mpg) when they go big-boys

I agree on finally retiring Crown vic...just keep the 500 to replace it. but giving the police 4 door mustangs?! (laughs arse off for five minutes). ford would loose what little rep they have left if they did that :P
 
Well the thing is, the Mondeo is about the same size as the Mazda 6, thus making it roughly the same size as the Fusion here in the US. Why not give us the Mondeo? It would cut production costs, development costs, and Americans would be getting a more fuel-efficent and argueably better built car for about the same ammount of money. As for the Fiesta, I belive it is almost the same size as the current Focus here in the US, so we wouldn't be missing out on much there either.

I dunno. I'm not a Ford guy, so I obviously cannot speak for all of them. But given a shred of common sense, Ford Europe/Aus products could do well here, but they can't just kill everything off either. Obviously the Mustang, F-150, Explorer and Expedition would have to stay, but I suggest wiping the slate clean for the most part...
 
YSSMAN
Well the thing is, the Mondeo is about the same size as the Mazda 6, thus making it roughly the same size as the Fusion here in the US. Why not give us the Mondeo? It would cut production costs, development costs, and Americans would be getting a more fuel-efficent and argueably better built car for about the same ammount of money.
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It very well could've been the cost issue. First off, I agree on Mondeos. As much as I like Fusions(except for few major exterior flaws), I like Mondeos more. But if you remember Contours(which of course were our Mondeos few years back), thing was very expensive to fix, due to the parts being costly. For some reason, I'm thinking Mondeos are expensive to bring to the States. Perhaps it didn't start out as world platform car like the smaller Focus did? Not very surprising. Looking at their Freestar, Taurus, Crown Vics, Focus, Explorer, I'm questioning the Ford executives' foresight. Half their line up looks like a last ditch attempt. Freestar almost qualify's as a semi-retro model. Maybe Ford can pitch it against FJ Cruiser or Wrangler. :p
 
...And that seems to be the biggest problem with Ford. While GM and DCX are changing to meet the demands of the public, Ford seems stuck in the same rut that they were in 20 years ago, assuming they would sell models because A) They were American or B) Badged as either an F150 or Mustang.
 
YSSMAN
...And that seems to be the biggest problem with Ford. While GM and DCX are changing to meet the demands of the public, Ford seems stuck in the same rut that they were in 20 years ago, assuming they would sell models because A) They were American or B) Badged as either an F150 or Mustang.
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And they do do a pretty good job on F-150 and Mustangs. :rolleyes: I keep on thinking Ford should make a car like Fit or the new Swift(not yet in the States), they have the European Fiesta. Nice midsize sedan? They finally come up with Fusion, but they have a even nicer one in Europe. Crown Vics and Taurus, I let them slide because they are just fleet vehicles at the end of their lifecycle. I can't believe some people are investing $30,000(they might be cheaper, I don't know) into dinosaurs like the Explorer though. I'll stop here, I forgot this was a GM-Nissan/Renault thread. It's all your fault, YSSMAN. :crazy:
 
I really don't care if it gets too off topic as I'm sure that I'll throw in the merger news whenever possible.

I've never really completely understood the reluctance of the American automakers to import their foreign models to the US, as they often bring our American ones to foreign lands. Atleast GM has the sense to do something about the generally good Opels as Saturns, and the VE cars as Zetas here in the US.
 
i think ford has a 'once a flop, always a flop" attitude. don't forget, the fords actually still own and run the business. that' and I think they've sunk more money into overhauling LR/Aston/Volvo...whil leaving the mother brands pretty much out of it

talking of Mondys...
my mum's best freind from HS wrecked a nice looking Contour Sport she'd owned for a long time. had to throw the car away.
 
Here is where we stand today:

LLN.com
General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner and Renault-Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn have ended their discussions of a possible alliance between the three organizations, reports the Wall Street Journal. According to the newspaper, a major factor that led to the split was GM's demand that Nissan-Renault pay a "control premium" if it bought 20 percent of GM's stock as part of the alliance.

People "familiar with the situation," said talks were terminated after a brief phone call this morning between the two cheif executives. The move comes eleven days of ahead of the planned deadline for a decision by GM and Renault-Nissan. The two sides reportedly agreed they were simply "too far apart on the value of the potential tie-up," the newspaper said. A GM spokesperson declined to comment to the WSJ. None of the three parties has issued an official statement in response to the report.
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Well I have to say that I'm pretty happy about it. The only question I have is if Renault/Nissan is planning on buying former GM plants, as Ghosn had pointed out a while back. If our Govenor (Granholm) could strike a deal with Nissan over that, she could probably seal-up the election against (my vote) DeVos...
 

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