Going for a gap OR divebomb?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Spongeinside, Feb 8, 2020.

?

Your opinion

Poll closed Feb 15, 2020.
  1. Going for the gap

    6 vote(s)
    5.1%
  2. Divebomb

    62 vote(s)
    53.0%
  3. Racing incident

    21 vote(s)
    17.9%
  4. Racing incident (avoidable/causing a collision)

    28 vote(s)
    23.9%
  1. breeminator

    breeminator

    Messages:
    1,132
    This is just after the car behind has started braking. For him to start braking earlier than that, it would have needed to be clear even earlier than this what the car in front was going to do. I can't see any way the car behind could have predicted it, even at the point in time shown in this image, never mind even earlier.

    braking point.jpg
     
    Ashthebash and Pigems like this.
  2. Fudman420

    Fudman420

    Messages:
    492
    Location:
    United States
    I agree that at that point he couldn't have predicted what the Megane is going to do but what he can see is he is way to far back to make a move up the inside.. He is behind by like 5 car lengths..
     
  3. rono_thomas

    rono_thomas Premium

    Messages:
    2,118
    4A04F5BC-7CB0-4DB7-BEBC-53D429F9C38C.png The point at which the Supra decides to turn in, just prior to this, this a huuuuge gap to be able to decide that this is a very different picture.

    Moreover the trajectory of the supra is extremely shallow and will be forcing the Megane wide even if he gets there legally.

    Again if this is not a big enough gap to avoid contact, the Supra driver has no business to be even considering door to door racing.
     
  4. Famine

    Famine Administrator

    Messages:
    68,934
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    More like 10 - the braking point with the orange barrier is just after the 150m board.

    But he's still alongside on the apex because the Megane - which has the best brakes in the class by a huge margin - brakes far too early. In fact by braking so early in a car that can brake so much later and staying right for so long, the following driver might even have thought he was being let through...

    Both cars have done something wrong here for them to end up together - it's not like the Supra has steamed into the corner and smashed the Megane off in order to slow himself down. He's gone towards a wide open, almost ceded, door, which the car in front has closed unaware of the Supra being there. Hence racing incident.
     
  5. rono_thomas

    rono_thomas Premium

    Messages:
    2,118
    Thats a very loose description of being alongside at the apex.
     
  6. breeminator

    breeminator

    Messages:
    1,132
    But at that point the Supra is braking maximally and cannot do anything to brake more. There are only two choices - go inside, or drive off the track to the outside. The instructional video says he should have driven off the track to the outside, and that is what I would have done, but I'd see the incident as the fault of the car in front, effectively forcing the car behind off the track. As the game wouldn't give the car in front a penalty for forcing the car behind off the track, the majority of people playing the game ignore the instructional video and head for the inside.

    Edit: Actually, I've just re-watched the instructional video, and it only says you need to drive off the track to avoid contact if you've braked too late. In the incident this thread is about, the car behind did not brake too late, so isn't required to drive off the track to avoid contact. The video doesn't cover what should happen in the event of imminent contact due to the car in front slowing excessively, rather than the car behind braking too late.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
    Ashthebash and MaxAttack like this.
  7. Famine

    Famine Administrator

    Messages:
    68,934
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    The collision occurred on the corner apex. It would have been hard to if they weren't overlapping.
     
    Senna52 and MaxAttack like this.
  8. rono_thomas

    rono_thomas Premium

    Messages:
    2,118
    You are much wiser than that Famine to realise that is not what I mean... I would expect better.

    Do not get me wrong, this is not a divebomb, but the Supra has plenty of time and opportunity to take a different course to avoid contact it’s obvious that the driver had no intention.

    An attacker less than Half way alongside at corner apex, has all the responsibility to avoid contact.
     
  9. watto79

    watto79

    Messages:
    1,381
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I've finally got around to watching the replay that the OP kindly shared. With regards to this specific incident, the Megane very clearly slows far too much for that corner. Lap 1 they take the corner really nicely and hit the apex at 65mph. On all other laps where they take the corner nice and smoothly they apex in the low 60's/high50's. On lap 4 for unclear reasons the Megane overslows the car to 51mph just before the contact happens. That is a massive difference in speed for the corner. The Supra brakes at the correct point and positions the car to take the corner as normal. They would have needed fighter pilot reflexes to realise that the Megane was going to continue slowing for no apparent reason.

    To me, if this is considered a dirty divebomb it's just as much a dirty brake check. In reality I don't think either driver was attempting either of these things, so to me it's a racing incident.

    I know people will disagree so will likely leave it there. I firmly believe the Supra had no intention of 'going for a gap'. They were just driving the corner.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
    Lilium, Ashthebash, GTWelsh and 4 others like this.
  10. rono_thomas

    rono_thomas Premium

    Messages:
    2,118
    Even though I do not agree with the polls classification I would say that there is a resounding Majority so far of opinions.
     
  11. Famine

    Famine Administrator

    Messages:
    68,934
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I'm used to disappointing - I'm married with two daughters.
    He has roughly 1.1s, during which he is fully on the brakes - with one tyre locked.
    We're not talking about two cars in the same formula going into a corner with some overlap, but two cars with wildly different capabilities going into a corner where the former has slowed significantly early and turned extremely late into a region where a car behind - braking appropriately - is inexorably going to be.

    Both have made errors. Racing incident.
     
    watto79 and cleanLX like this.
  12. MaxAttack

    MaxAttack

    Messages:
    1,217
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I agree with Famine here, especially taking into account OP's description of the whole race, where he admits struggling at the corner in question and taking multiple lines throughout the course of the race.

    Now, the Supra driver's excuse is pretty asinine here - the very odd nature of the incident denotes that it's very much the kind of thing that happens in a GTS lobby, and not in an F1 race, so the comparison is pointless.

    I think the thing OP should take away from this is maybe to put a bit more time into learning the tracks in between racing.

    I can imagine the Supra driver seeing you struggle with that corner and deciding the 1% move has a decent chance, and he's probably not wrong considering how early you brake, but it just so happens this time that the odd line you chose intersected his move, which seemed well within the capabilities of his car and skill at that point. You should also consider that you might have been unaware the move was coming, and maybe take a mental note to check your surroundings in close racing.

    Note that I'm not a top 1% driver and I have plenty of incidents of my own, but I find it's important to consider what I can take away from an incident in terms of things to work on, rather than waste energy arguing with the person who hit me/I hit.
     
    Ashthebash and watto79 like this.
  13. rono_thomas

    rono_thomas Premium

    Messages:
    2,118
    It is only a racing incident when both cars have equal claim to the apex, if either one has less than equal claim to the apex then it is on them to avoid any contact.

    In this case the Supra does not achieve claim to the apex and never was going to from being that far back.

    Cars that handle differently is not a legitimate defense, Multiclass Racing being a prime example.

    Had the Supra been at least half way alongside or more then this would have been a different result.
     

    Attached Files:

    cleanLX and Fudman420 like this.
  14. TT92

    TT92 Premium

    Messages:
    1,318
    Location:
    Australia
    This is exactly right and therefore a dive bomb.
     
  15. Fudman420

    Fudman420

    Messages:
    492
    Location:
    United States
    At 4 secs into that video the Megane starts his turn and although he has comprised speed is 2 to 3 car lengths in front. At that point the Megane has established his corning rights and it becomes the responsibility of the supra to overtake cleanly. I'm not saying this is an intentional dirty bomb but it is a dive bomb. I think it was a reaction but the wrong reaction.
     
  16. cleanLX

    cleanLX

    Messages:
    892
    Location:
    United States
    My first review said divebomb... then I started listening to @Famine take on it, and thought, ok, maybe...
    I mean had I been in the Megane, as a mirror watcher, I'd have seen the move to the inside in the mirror, I'd have also seen the massive differential in closing rate, and would left the apex alone and looked for the run out of the next left... So, maybe the Megane is at fault...
    Then I watched the video in slow mo, and noted at the 26sec mark, when contact is inevitable, the Supra still releases the brakes to roll through the corner... as if the other car is not there...
    Did the Supra every truly gain corner rights? No, but he made clear his intention, and while the Megane was somewhat unpredictable that does not mean you get a free pass to the apex... at the same time, the Megane made a mistake and braked too early/hard... placing himself off race pace and off the traditional race line... just because you're in front does not give you right to cut across cars at speed and on the racing line... and, when you are about to make contact with a car that is clearly going to be parked on the Apex, the right decision is not to release the brakes...
    The 2 cars then meet at the apex...
    Bad decisions/awareness on both sides, contact avoidable by both parties...

    I'm with @Famine ... to many bad decisions by both parties to be able to solely lay blame... Racing Incident.

    Edit to add... if the penalty system was not trying to compute blame, both drivers would receive a penalty... eliminating the whole who's right and who's wrong discussion, and giving both drivers a mindset of, how to I do that differently next time to avoid a penalty.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
    watto79 likes this.
  17. kilesa4568

    kilesa4568

    Messages:
    2,551
    Kinda exaggerating a little there...

    The rear view from the very start of the video is more than enough evidence for me. As soon as the Supra jinks to the inside at the braking zone, it was pretty obvious what was going to happen as it was way too far back to beat the Megane to turn in. Correct braking point or not, they had to try and anticipate the Megane's position when they got to the corner as that car has track position and corner rights. A careless and avoidable incident
     
  18. Famine

    Famine Administrator

    Messages:
    68,934
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    The first sentence there is the key, not the bolded one.

    All notions of corner rights and apex claims, in GT Sport, are moot because at no point do its rules establish any such thing.

    This is two people making wrong decisions - not out of any particular malice - to arrive at the same point on the track at the same time. Of all the douchery that goes on in Daily Races, this is about as benign as it gets.
     
    Senna52, Ashthebash and MaxAttack like this.
  19. fastone371

    fastone371

    Messages:
    2,140
    Location:
    United States
    When racing the lead car has all of the,corner "rights". The onus is on the following car to avoid the lead car unless they are side by side in which both must avoid contact, in every sanctioning body the move by the second would be penalized. As far as "Senna would have done this without punushment" Senna would not have finished very many races if he really did drive like that, remember, F1 cars have wings and tires/suspension protruding, both of which are extremely easy to damage with contact.
     
  20. instinct808

    instinct808

    Messages:
    148
    Location:
    Poland
    this is not divebomb (still don't know why y'all using this term only in negative context)
    just lack of awareness from both sides
    and the fact that the construction of this corner is just stupid (too many entry lines that can be considered as a okay ones) doesn't help either

    line of Megane looks too flat and too slow
    Supra line in other hand looks like it would be too deep mid corner
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
  21. Spongeinside

    Spongeinside

    Messages:
    1,366
    Location:
    Netherlands
    I do definitely need to work on my track and car knowledge, although it’s impossible to know exactly how every single car reacts in every single corner on every single track in the game.

    I was switching cars every race and we raced on different tracks every race. I’m not too experienced with the Megane, hence why I chose it.

    It’s obvious mistakes were made by both myself and the other driver.

    The main reason for me getting a bit angry about it was the argument after. At that moment in the lobby I couldn’t watch the replay back to see what actually happened and in my mind it was just a divebomb. I would have been fine with it if he just said ‘sorry I couldn’t avoid you’. But instead he came with the whole ‘Senna excuse’. I’m aware of his aggressive driving style as I’ve been in the same lobby with him many times, and until this incident, I never had any with him as he is usually much further up the field than I am, but I have seen many arguments between him and other drivers, all annoyed by his aggression in both attacking and defending situations. Every time he seems oblivious and stubborn to accept any responsibility for his actions, claiming that “rubbing is racing”, “Senna did it too” and “that if we had ‘our way’ passing should only happen on straights”.

    I’m just still mind blown about his attitude towards others. I’m working on my track and car knowledge and situational awareness while racing, and I think he could probably also learn a bit more to anticipate slower/less skilled drivers.

    But I’m afraid he’s just not going to learn or change his attitude in any way, I accept that and will try to just avoid his as best as I can.

    Anyway, thanks for all the responses, it definitely changed my view on the situation. We’ll probably never get to an absolute agreement on what happened and what could or should have been done, but it’s been a learning experience for me at least :)
     
  22. Famine

    Famine Administrator

    Messages:
    68,934
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I think we all agree that this is the sign of an absolute willy. :lol:
     
    fastone371, BaareCZ and Spongeinside like this.
  23. Spongeinside

    Spongeinside

    Messages:
    1,366
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Yep :lol:

    :banghead:
     
    fastone371 likes this.
  24. watto79

    watto79

    Messages:
    1,381
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Well done for posting the video and inviting the feedback. That's brave to do around these parts :lol:

    With your attitude you'll keep getting better. Despite my thoughts on the incident the other guy does sound like an idiot. Good luck :tup:
     
    Ashthebash, fastone371 and Ddkklop like this.
  25. breeminator

    breeminator

    Messages:
    1,132
    This just isn't true in real life. You can't suddenly go over 20% slower on a bit of track when doing so would put the following car on a collision course with you. If you do that, and the car behind hits you, it's your fault. This is even true when driving on normal roads, I read about a case where someone braked for no reason on a motorway, and they were the one convicted of causing death by dangerous driving when it caused a collision behind them, it wasn't argued that it's the problem of the cars behind to accommodate their unreasonable braking. It's even more the responsibility of the car in front on a race track when it is expected that the car behind will follow more closely than they would on a normal road.
     
    BaareCZ likes this.
  26. Spongeinside

    Spongeinside

    Messages:
    1,366
    Location:
    Netherlands
    It just came to me, it was all live streamed on YouTube... So there might be some footage of the argument, for entertainment purposes... imma look it up...



    at about 3 hours and 10/11 minutes in, it’s partly on screen :) It makes me angry all over again :banghead:

    hehe o well...
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
  27. rono_thomas

    rono_thomas Premium

    Messages:
    2,118
    Its only a moot point if you accept the games “rules” as being correct - which they are not. As this discussion was not aimed in the direction of “was this penalty that the game gave deserved” it is a moot point to claim that because the game believes this way then real world rule applications dont apply.

    This was a question to determine what we all thought about this incident, so any decisions made by the game is the actual moot point.

    OP’s original question...

    “I need a unbiased objective opinion, below is a short video of a incident in a lobby race. I am driving the Megane and the other driver is in the Supra.”

    Let’s keep the goal posts where they stood originally.
     
  28. Famine

    Famine Administrator

    Messages:
    68,934
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Not really. Real world rules don't apply to GT Sport (it'd be a far different experience if they did). For that matter, no one set of 'corner rights' edicts apply consistently in the real world either - they differ from race to race within an individual series, never mind in different series.
    Which is why no reference was made to the game's decisions or penalty system...
    And that is that both drivers made errors - the Supra in going for a gap that was likely to close and not taking evasive action (although unlikely to be successful) when it closed, the Megane for braking ludicrously early and turning late into the path of a car committed to the path, resulting in on-apex contact between two unaware drivers. Hence, racing incident.

    However the guy defending himself by saying Senna would have done it is an absolute trumpet.
     
    breeminator likes this.
  29. eran0004

    eran0004

    Messages:
    8,941
    The lead car is taking an erratic line through that double-apex corner. The following car should have approached the situation with caution. I’d say they both share the blame for the contact.

    As for cornering rights, that’s a myth. There is no such thing in the FIA sporting code.
     
    Senna52, PirovacBoy and MaxAttack like this.
  30. rono_thomas

    rono_thomas Premium

    Messages:
    2,118
    And this is where we differ. The only driver imo who could have been completely unawares is the megane driver. The Supra driver however would have had 2020 vision for what was about to happen and should have been aware of what was about to happen.

    Agreed

    Myths they maybe and yet stewarding decisions are made - using judgements of Multiple stewards and past decisions and yes they contain grey areas. Which is why folk like us enjoy these conversations.