Going for a gap OR divebomb?

[BjoBosUndies]

Senna wouldn't get away with a number of things he did if he was racing today.

Not withstanding Suzuka 1989, further examples please?

 

[watto79]

Not withstanding Suzuka 1989, further examples please?

Senna was an unbelievably good racer and he has my utmost respect, and not just because of his racing ability. He did have a reputation though. In Top Gears tribute to Senna, Martin Brundle talks briefly about this and a couple of debatable examples are shown. Video is below, not sure if I've timestamped it properly but it starts at 5:58.

I'd also say my comment was in part about how rules have changed since then too. What Senna did at Suzuka in 1989 wasn't penalised so presumably not against the rules of the time. Racing at the time was a little more self governed because crashing into someone meant somebody almost certainly getting hurt, or worse.

Anyway, I've gone off on a tangent. Here's the video

 

[eran0004]

Myths they maybe and yet stewarding decisions are made - using judgements of Multiple stewards and past decisions and yes they contain grey areas. Which is why folk like us enjoy these conversations.

It’s actually pretty well defined. You’re not allowed to cause avoidable collisions. In this case the blame is shared by both drivers: the Megane for picking an unusual and slow line through the corner and the Supra for not approaching the situation with caution.

 

[meekrab]

I take that point but the Supra is hard on the brakes all the way to the apex. Unless they were going too fast, and I don't think they were because they braked in the right place, there's no backing out of that.

I don't think the poll has all the relevant possibilities as I don't think either is correct. They were just following a normal line through the corner and came upon an unexpectedly slow moving car.

I don't think going "hard on the brakes all the way to the apex" is a normal line there.

 

[Ddkklop]

I'm quite a Senna fan, but even Senna later admitted that what he did was wrong. The whole "If you don't go for a gap, that's exists, you are no longer a racing driver" is not exactly right. It makes me sad when people often use this argument.

Anyway, I'd say it was a racing incident as well.

 

[rono_thomas]

It’s actually pretty well defined. You’re not allowed to cause avoidable collisions. In this case the blame is shared by both drivers: the Megane for picking an unusual and slow line through the corner and the Supra for not approaching the situation with caution.

Again this is only correct if you agree that the Megane did cause the avoidable contact, any number of screenshots can be posted to show that the contact is all on the Supra driver he was always going for a gap that was forever going to close - at which point the Megane is entitled to choose track position is theirs.

Not clear cut - and not defined - a huge grey area that many have different interpretations.



Max on Vettel - Vettle takes a strange line and Max goes goes for a gap that is then closed by vettel - Max accepts responsibility.

 

[eran0004]

Again this is only correct if you agree that the Megane did cause the avoidable contact, any number of screenshots can be posted to show that the contact is all on the Supra driver he was always going for a gap that was forever going to close - at which point the Megane is entitled to choose track position is theirs.

That’s a common misconception. The lead car is actually not allowed to drive whichever way he wants. Appendix L chapter 4:

"However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as premature direction changes, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties ranging from a fine to the exclusion from the race."

Max on Vettel - Vettle takes a strange line and Max goes goes for a gap that is then closed by vettel - Max accepts responsibility.

That’s not an abnormal change of direction. Vettel realises he can’t make the turn-in and knows that Verstappen will probably try to benefit from it so he leaves a gap for him (!). The problem in this case is that Verstappen fails to slow down enough to use this space and instead he hits Vettel’s car. That is the misjudgement and that is what he apologised for. Had Vettel decided to close the door at the last second, it would have been an abnormal change of direction and all Vettel’s fault.

In the Megane vs Supra case the Megane driver doesn’t leave any space for the Supra, but shuts the door at the last moment. That would be okay if 1) the lead car followed a normal and predictable line and 2) wasn’t aware that the following car was aiming for that space.

I can’t say anything about 2), only the driver knows what he was aware of at the time. However, it’s not a normal and predictable line and as such he gets to share the blame.

 

[Spongeinside]

I use the hood/roof view so there’s no ‘virtual’ rearview mirror, I have to rely on the radar hud, and that close to a corner I don’t use the ‘look behind’ function for obvious reasons...

There’s no sign of him on that, so I didn’t expect him to come up to me that quickly on the inside.

If there was a virtual rearview mirror, I would have seen him coming and if I were able to react quickly enough, move out of his way.

 

[cleanLX]

The biggest advantage of bumper cam is to be able to see things like this unfolding in the generously sized mirror.
The radar is neat when in close racing proximity with respectable drivers... but it's range is much too short to help be aware of dive bombs/lunges or cars tangled (rammed) up heading into a breaking zone.

 

[gtpierre]

It's an avoidable racing incident for the simple reason that both drivers are not good enough that they have consistant braking points, lines etc.
These drivers are probably DR C or low DR B, you can't expect them to drive perfectly, and not misjudge their speed, braking points or ability to overtake cleanly. That being said, using the Senna excuse when you're DR C is a bit of a joke...

The supra was too far from the megane to attempt an overtake, and the megane braked too early to take a regular line. There are obvious divebombs and this is not one.

The supra should have continued braking when he saw that the megane was going for the apex. The megane should have thought "hey I braked too early, maybe I should be careful with what's coming from behind".



side note :
When using the roof cam in the sport mode while you're in the middle of the traffic, it's better to use the other "radar" as it allows you to see cars coming from farther back.

 

[fastone371]

This just isn't true in real life. You can't suddenly go over 20% slower on a bit of track when doing so would put the following car on a collision course with you. If you do that, and the car behind hits you, it's your fault. This is even true when driving on normal roads, I read about a case where someone braked for no reason on a motorway, and they were the one convicted of causing death by dangerous driving when it caused a collision behind them, it wasn't argued that it's the problem of the cars behind to accommodate their unreasonable braking. It's even more the responsibility of the car in front on a race track when it is expected that the car behind will follow more closely than they would on a normal road.

Racers have to check up all the time without being hit by the car behind, this is not something unusual. No matter how you look at it it was a risky move by the Supra, with his momentum he could have easily passed on corner exit, especially with the Meganes lack of straight line speed.

 

[Racerx_34]

I need a unbiased objective opinion, below is a short video of a incident in a lobby race. I am driving the Megane and the other driver is in the Supra.

Please watch first before reading my opinion below it.



In my opinion it was a clear divebomb. He came from too big a distance back to go for a gap that was closed(/not there).

I don’t want to name and shame this person, I never had issues in the past (although many others have), but posting this is mainly the result of the ‘argument’ we had after the race. He argued that ”divebombing isn’t illegal and that Senna did it aswell and he was the greatest driver ever and was never punished for his divebombing actions”.

Apparently that’s a valid reason “Senna did it too, so it’s okay”... my mind was blown...

I want to know what you think, if I turn out to be the one a fault, I’ll offer him my apologies the next time I see him in a lobby.

1 - He's divebombed.
2 - You left the door wide open when being caught into a corner where that would invite scenario 1.

So yeah, he's made a lunge from far back and been an arse about it afterwards, but you can't leave a gap like that when under that much pressure.

 

[Trone_Colby]

Going with the unpopular opinion. I say racing incident.

I thought the Supra inputs were just fine. Although he hit the brakes a split second later than I would, he would have made it.

I would have thought that the Megane was gonna go wide on that turn. I would have tried to take that approach as well. The Megane slowed down and turned in more which caused the Supra to react and hit the brakes.

If one of the choices was to say the Supra was at fault then yes I would have picked that. This does not classify as a divebomb to me because the Supra did everything right in terms of braking and turning.

Now I would say that the Supra should have waited instead of making excuses.

 

[TT92]

Due to the number of people who cannot understand this as a true "dive bomb" and that the dive bomber is 100% at fault is the reason I do not race online any more. And having said that no doubt the penalty system gave the innocent victim a penalty just to rub salt into the wound as well.

I am sick and tired of being used as a "cornering aid" (as per this example) and having people say it is a racing incident when quite clearly it is not.

 

[BaareCZ]

I think this is a perfect example of going for a gap by performing a perfect example of a dive bomb. Does that answer your question? But to be fair, you "opened the door" way too much on that corner. There might as well have been "Come on, man. Do it!" flashing above your car. Racing incident avoidable by both parties. You were way too slow and on an unusual line and he should have waited and overtaken you on the straight. Stuff like this happens all the time at your level. The end.

EDIT:
The Senna comment is of course

 

[Haitauer]

Both failed. Megane going way too slow to the corner and Supra failed to notice Megane will propaply turn in. Supra should have taken a broader line to overtake the megane on the next corner from the inside or on the next straight due to better exit speed.

I assume megane was reacting to the third car messing around on the outside of the corner..

Bad driving overal..

 

[Spongeinside]

I think you’re the first person to notice there was a third car in the mix.. Not that that’s a valid excuse, but there were quite a lot of things happening at once at that corner.

To be honest, I never expected this thread to go anywhere, and thought it would get removed as it might be seen as ‘name and shame’. But it turned out to be quite a learning experience

 

[TT92]

I think you’re the first person to notice there was a third car in the mix.. Not that that’s a valid excuse, but there were quite a lot of things happening at once at that corner.

To be honest, I never expected this thread to go anywhere, and thought it would get removed as it might be seen as ‘name and shame’. But it turned out to be quite a learning experience

The biggest thing you should have learned is a lot of dive bombing, ramming idiots justify it by saying "racing incident" or you were doing something wrong. Of course you weren't. Your corner, you were there first, you are allowed to take any line you chose and there was absolutely no over lap so you are not required to give room and remember it is supposed to be the car behind responsibility to avoid contact.

Also, you never said. Did you get a penalty for the contact?

 

[Famine]

I am sick and tired of being used as a "cornering aid" (as per this example)

If there'd been no other car in front, the Supra would have made the corner just fine. In fact he was all but stopped on the apex (or rather a couple of feet inside it) when the collision happened. He hasn't used the car ahead to slow himself down or make the turn - he's simply driven into a gap caused by unnatural deceleration from the car in front that he was completely unaware might close and continued into the gap while it was closing instead of avoiding it to the outside.

That's why it's a racing incident - two drivers not paying attention to their surroundings both making a decision (and compounding the decision by making a further one; the Megane, racing without mirrors, was not aware of it) which has put them into the same piece of road.

If the Supra had absolutely shovelled into the corner at +30mph and bounced off the Megane to slow himself down, sure, but he hasn't.

Your corner, you were there first, you are allowed to take any line you chose

That's not entirely true (different rules for overlap and corner 'rights' apply to different series and races even under the same sanctioning body; I think we can see in GT Sport that what's "allowed" is... a long discussion), and it's also dreadful racecraft - because it's a race-ending attitude. You shouldn't be driving into a piece of road where a car is, or inexorably will be, whether they're ahead of you or behind you, even if the rules (which we don't have) say you can. That's how you end your own race through someone else's error - and as they say, there's plenty of people who were in the right who are now in the ground. It's also the reason why we teach kids (and learner drivers) to look both ways even when crossing one-way streets - people **** up, sometimes through malice and sometimes not, and not accounting for other people's **** ups gets you killed.

Some awareness from either driver would have prevented this incident entirely. Some awareness from both would have been even better.


And all that aside, justifying being a fundamentally spatially unaware sphincter by quoting Senna is tossery of the highest order.

 

[Pedinhuh]

Definitely a dive bomb.

He argued that ”divebombing isn’t illegal and that Senna did it aswell and he was the greatest driver ever and was never punished for his divebombing actions”.

What a ****ing scumbag, because:

1)He's not Senna and probably never will be...And Senna wasn't all about dirty driving, GTFO of here with that nonsense.

2)When Senna did it explicitly(that I remember it was only ONCE) he also took himself out of the race because he only wanted to take Prost out of the same race...And he was paying back what Prost did to him the year prior to that.

But this guy right here does it and continues to race like nothing happened(after all, GT has no meaningful damage system and a laughable penalty system that would most likely give YOU a penalty).

3) Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[breeminator]

Your corner, you were there first, you are allowed to take any line you chose and there was absolutely no over lap so you are not required to give room and remember it is supposed to be the car behind responsibility to avoid contact.

This was disproven by a quote from the rules in a previous post. It's also simple common sense that what you said cannot be true, as the car being overtaken can ALWAYS cause a collision if they choose to drive into the car coming from behind, there is nothing the car coming from behind can possibly do to avoid that if the car being overtaken chooses to drive into them. The car being overtaken had taken that corner at 65mph previously, but this time it was 51mph. Just how slowly do they have to be going before the car behind is permitted to pass them? 40mph? 30mph? 0mph? Even if they had slowed to 30mph, they'd still be able to turn into a passing car and hit them.

 

[wtrain77]

I think we can all agree the Senna excuse is not an effective means to justify this incident. However, I don't believe this was a divebomb. It looks like the Supra driver tried to take this turn with the optimal speed and line. I think the intent to do this was justifiable due to the sizeable gap to the Megane in front of it. When the Supra started braking, I don't believe the driver was expecting to overtake at the apex.

You could make an argument the Supra driver should have adjusted his line by reacting to the Megane unexpectedly overbraking and taking an odd line, but in my opinion, the Megane shares the larger portion of responsibility for this incident. The reason why such incidents rarely happen in top splits is because drivers take turns with more predictable speeds and lines. The Megane entered the apex at unpredictably slow speeds which in turn allowed him to take an odd line through this apex. While it is not the same as weaving through the braking zone, it has the same effect.

 

[Vegard]

The Supra, with shot front tyres and two cars right in front, turns in 25-50 meters too early and arrives at the apex of the first of two 90 degree corners at a shallow angle with locked fronts and people are arguing that the Megane is at fault for this incident, even partially?

Are you at fault for not swerving away from the apex, with a car on your outside, in order to make room for a divebomber?

 

[8l23ub]

Wow, not even close, doesnt matter how fast or slow you were going, in the race for that particular piece of tarmac, he was never going to get there before you without you actually 'allowing' him, as the car in front, you arent obliged to give him anything.
He's being a bit hopefull.

 

[wtrain77]

The Supra, with shot front tyres and two cars right in front, turns in 25-50 meters too early and arrives at the apex of the first of two 90 degree corners at a shallow angle with locked fronts and people are arguing that the Megane is at fault for this incident, even partially?

Are you at fault for not swerving away from the apex, with a car on your outside, in order to make room for a divebomber?

Is it reasonable for the Supra to take this corner as fast as his skill will allow? I argue yes because there is a large enough of a gap in front that if the Megane does the same as he is expected to, they both get through unscathed with the Megane still leading.

Assuming we agree it is reasonable for the Supra to take the fastest and optimal line, the condition of the tires is a moot point and irrelevant. The relevant question to ask becomes how well does the Supra execute this turn given the condition of the tires. If the cars do not collide, I believe the Supra completes this turn while staying within track limits.

If I were the Supra, I would be looking to close the gap in hopes of using the slipstream to pass on the oncoming straight. If you don't attempt to close the gap here, what's the point of racing? The excessive braking of the Megane effectively created a brake check situation that took 100 meters to fully unfold.

 

[GTWelsh]

Not really. Real world rules don't apply to GT Sport

I've broadly agreed with you until this point.

So, if someone wipes someone out and the all knowing GTS penalty system doesn't punish anyone, then it's absolutely fine? GTS said it was.

My point is we're not talking about "was it within the games rules" here at all, we're talking about general racing etiquette surely?

 

[Famine]

I've broadly agreed with you until this point.

So, if someone wipes someone out and the all knowing GTS penalty system doesn't punish anyone, then it's absolutely fine? GTS said it was.

For all we can complain about it, pretty much, yes.

We're all playing a game. We're all subject to the rules of that game. If the rules of that game say "x" is okay, it's okay in that game. And yes, that sucks, especially when it's something that can be exploited - and is - by asshats.

We can come on GTPlanet and rage about someone being a dick, but ultimately if they get away with it, they get away with it. There's no higher authority and no appeals (and no evidence that reporting people does anything), there's just the game's rules...


... and GTPlanet for people to post videos and complain about the guy being a dick.

My point is we're not talking about "was it within the games rules" here at all, we're talking about general racing etiquette surely?

That's also a problem because... really there's no such thing either. Again, we can complain about it all we like, and F1 threads are riddled with discussions over what driver did what to who, but there are wildly differing standards from series to series, and from race to race within a series. The stewards at one race may penalise a driver for something that the stewards at the next race - or previous race - don't. One only has to look at the real-world examples quoted on 'overlap', where some series regard any portion of vehicle alongside another as an overlap, but others require more and more of the car.

Pretty much everyone, everywhere, agrees that driving your car into another one on purpose is bad - although even then what we in the UK call stock car racing, banger racing, and demolition/destruction derby racing rules will disagree. From that point of using your car as a weapon down to lesser and lesser potential infractions, it's pretty much dependent on the rule set and how the stewards implement it - BTCC and F1 are hardly governed by a common framework on contact!

With the exception of technical penalties, most racing is managed by opinion, and even track limits are sometimes mere opinion despite the basic framework (the white lines at the edge of the track) being laid out in the FIA sporting code; stewards may relax limits on certain corners (and the outsides of corners) sometimes, but rigidly enforce them at other times, because opinion.

GT Sport's rules and stewards... don't really exist. There's just the automated penalty system, and for all its flaws it's the arbiter of what's okay. We haven't actually discussed how the game's penalty system approached this incident (which seems to be that it ignored it) in this thread, just the relative lines of the Supra (steaming into a corner at race pace as if no-one was there) and Megane (turning into a corner off pace as if no-one was there - or, as below, going to be there), but neither that nor real-life rules plucked from some series or other really have any bearing on this largely nondescript incident.


Personally I never drive my car into a space where there is already any part of a car or where a car is locked on a course to be, and unless I make the mistake by understeering or oversteering due to being off my line (and I do), I don't initiate car-to-car contact. That's far beyond what GT Sport's rules require anyone to do, and I absolutely could finish much higher in most races by abandoning that and going to what the game allows me to do - as many other people do.

 

[Vegard]

Is it reasonable for the Supra to take this corner as fast as his skill will allow? I argue yes because there is a large enough of a gap in front that if the Megane does the same as he is expected to, they both get through unscathed with the Megane still leading.

Assuming we agree it is reasonable for the Supra to take the fastest and optimal line, the condition of the tires is a moot point and irrelevant. The relevant question to ask becomes how well does the Supra execute this turn given the condition of the tires. If the cars do not collide, I believe the Supra completes this turn while staying within track limits.

If I were the Supra, I would be looking to close the gap in hopes of using the slipstream to pass on the oncoming straight. If you don't attempt to close the gap here, what's the point of racing? The excessive braking of the Megane effectively created a brake check situation that took 100 meters to fully unfold.

He's not on the ideal line but he's on the correct line considering the situation. He's just braked too late.
Looking at the lap time's I would say it's a classical case of fast driver who has messed up at the start of the race and is now running hot looking to swiftly make his way back up the order. And as usual, progress is made and casualties are left behind...

 

[GTWelsh]

...

I agree with you. It just felt like a very bold statement to make when general track etiquette is ultimately pretty well known (grey areas aside) and Motorsport rule sets are just a formal version of this.

I also race using real-world esk higher standards. Honour among racers!

I'd say there is an assumed unwritten ruleset at play here. If a game doesn't have a penalty system it doesn't automatically mean you can just ram everyone off track and that be OK. So the same applies here, where the system doesn't pick things up.

This doesn't necessarily apply to the OP issue, and for that I agree with your points. At first I was 100% DIVEBOMB but after reading your take I've had my mind changed

 

[NSP525]

In my experience trying to race every lap like its TT and braking late will result in situations like this. You have to react to the race in front of you, if someone takes a messed up line or brakes early you can't just punt them off or force contact. The supra was never close enough to capitalize on the Meganes early braking and odd entry. If he were two or three car lengths closer he could have sailed up the inside fairly and established some track position on entry by getting alongside the megane before turn in. He's just too far back to really have a chance of making that move clean, way too ambitious of a move with a gap that big IMO.