Going for a gap OR divebomb?

[Mac117]

I agree with @Famine and others. In my opinion it's a racing incident. I think the Supra never thought he could hit the Megane as he was pretty far and the Megane has very good brakes. Then the Megane closes the door when the Supra has nowhere to go anymore. The contact is small, the Supra was braking the whole way, but in the perfect place to make the Megane spin.

Unfortunate race incident quite common to see in "lower cups" in real racing.

Then, of course, the Senna comments are total bullcrap and the Supra guy shows what he is.... But that's a different issue.

 

[NevilleNobody]

Racing incident.

He hits the brake marker where he ought, makes the choice to go left early, is hard on the brakes and gets it stopped adequately before the apex:

And you start to turn in more than half a second later:

By which time he's got not all that much hope of avoiding you, especially as his front-right tyre is locked up:

In fact, it's only been 1.7s since he made the choice to go left:

I'm not entirely sure what he could have done to avoid this collision. Though obviously if he's quoting Senna to defend his actions, he's a tossrag.

This is absolute rubbish of the highest order. he could avoid the collision by knowing the driver in front is, at some point, going to have to turn in! Given he was nowhere NEAR close enough to encourage the lead driver to take a formal wide line, the impact is 100% the fault of the second driver for launching into an apex from way too far back.

Absolute no brainer dive bomb, this is black and white.

 

[kilesa4568]

As much as I hate F1 references in threads like these, it reminds me so much of Hamilton's lunge on F4H_Super_Albon at Interlagos. The gap was there from 2 car lengths back but in the time it took to close the gap on the brakes, the gap had already disappeared. He did have a small overlap by the apex but the lines were drastically different and he wasn't in Albon's mirrors...or on his radar.

 

[Famine]

This is absolute rubbish of the highest order. he could avoid the collision by knowing the driver in front is, at some point, going to have to turn in! Given he was nowhere NEAR close enough to encourage the lead driver to take a formal wide line, the impact is 100% the fault of the second driver for launching into an apex from way too far back.

Absolute no brainer dive bomb, this is black and white.

It's not a divebomb because he hasn't used the car in front to either slow down or to turn his car. Had the Megane not been there, the Supra would still have made the corner. This is just two cars on the same part of track, through two less than ideal decisions.

He's simply hit a car that he didn't think was going to be there - having hit the brake marker spot on and got the car slowed down enough for the apex (and actually slower) - but was. The car in front has slowed down unnaturally (given the Megane's braking prowess) and is off the ideal line, turning in very late (and leaving the car at completely the wrong angle for the second apex), admitting that they struggle with that corner. Neither expected the other to be there, but both were.

 

[Vegard]

The situation isn't as clear cut as it looked at first glance.
After reading Famine's comments I had a few more looks at the video (It's always a good idea to re-evaluate your position if you find yourself in strong disagreement with him) and there are four cars that play a role here.

@Spongeinside Did the Megane going off in front of you affect your line and speed into the corner?
Were you leaving a bit of extra space on the outside for him to rejoin?

The Supra is also under pressure from the Cayman behind so that could explain his decision to go narrow early.

I've changed my vote from divebomb to racing incident (avoidable contact/causing a collision) but I still wouldn't put any blame on the Megane that got taken out. But, rather than a calculated divebomb I would say the Supra driver made a mistake that he should have been penalized for.

 

[I_Leak_Oil]

I did something almost exactly the same last night in Race ‘c’

1st corner, I messed up just couldn’t stop in time and hit someone and carried on

It’s was like the brakes were not working? Maybe missed my marker a little bit but made a big difference getting stopped ( or not )

 

[NevilleNobody]

It's not a divebomb because he hasn't used the car in front to either slow down or to turn his car. Had the Megane not been there, the Supra would still have made the corner. This is just two cars on the same part of track, through two less than ideal decisions.

He's simply hit a car that he didn't think was going to be there - having hit the brake marker spot on and got the car slowed down enough for the apex (and actually slower) - but was. The car in front has slowed down unnaturally (given the Megane's braking prowess) and is off the ideal line, turning in very late (and leaving the car at completely the wrong angle for the second apex), admitting that they struggle with that corner. Neither expected the other to be there, but both were.

This is a poor argument, it's not an empty track, you need to react to what is in front of you. Just because he hit the brakes at the normal time is irrelevant. He should have hung out wide and apexed normally rather than dive up the inside line on a narrow angle.

 

[Famine]

This is a poor argument, it's not an empty track, you need to react to what is in front of you. Just because he hit the brakes at the normal time is irrelevant. He should have hung out wide and apexed normally rather than dive up the inside line on a narrow angle.

With the benefit of hindsight and multiple reviews of the replay, I'm sure we're all working on full knowledge of what we would have done in his position. In real-time he saw the Megane slowing too much while staying too far right for too long and went left on a broadly normal line (I'd go deeper than the Supra, but nowhere near as deep as the Megane, but then I'm not an A+ driver).

When the Megane moved left two thirds of a second later, he should have gone right to avoid the collision - but most people have target fixation and will fly that plane straight into the ground. The Megane's line is poor (check out the pre-collision direction it's pointing, given the second apex ahead) through self-admitted difficulties with that corner, and had he been running in a view with mirrors (again, self-admitted that he didn't) he'd have had a chance to see a faster car coming on a more normal line and not gone quite as far left.

Again, two unaware drivers coming into contact through lack of awareness - or ordinary humans making human mistakes - rather than a dick ploughing into a corner to use the car in front as a braking and cornering aid in a cynical divebomb.

The Megane was quite unlucky to be spun by it, although at least the penalty system didn't add insult to injury this time.

 

[NevilleNobody]

No, from 4 car lengths back you never ever go inside, full stop. It will never end well.

It's a lack of racing nous, he was way too far back to go inside.

 

[Famine]

No, from 4 car lengths back you never ever go inside, full stop. It will never end well.

Yep, it's not a wise idea, but in that blink of an eye with the Megane going at walking pace off-line and not even turning for the corner, ambition may overcome wisdom.

It's a lack of racing nous, he was way too far back to go inside.

They're both DR C, so lack of racing nous is to be expected - but this is far from a dirty divebomb and a deliberate attempt to use the Megane to make the corner (or take it out). It's a mistake, compounded by the Megane's own mistake in line and speed, in which unfortunately it has come worse off as a result.

 

[wtrain77]

In my experience trying to race every lap like its TT and braking late will result in situations like this. You have to react to the race in front of you, if someone takes a messed up line or brakes early you can't just punt them off or force contact. The supra was never close enough to capitalize on the Meganes early braking and odd entry. If he were two or three car lengths closer he could have sailed up the inside fairly and established some track position on entry by getting alongside the megane before turn in. He's just too far back to really have a chance of making that move clean, way too ambitious of a move with a gap that big IMO.

He didn't brake late, he slowed the car down to sufficiently hit the apex and would have completed the turn if the cars do not collide.

While I agree you have to react to what is in front of you, each incident should be judged independently.

We can safely closely follow a car in a straight because we can reliably predict the car will not brake. Likewise, entering a corner, we also make predictions that a car will hit the apex at certain speeds. The Megane has taken this corner at speeds 15-20% slower than the limits of traction will allow. This is a staggering difference.

What you are advocating is for drivers to factor the possibility that the lead car will possibly do this for every corner. After all, every corner has the potential for this to happen. This would require you to brake 10-20m early for each and every corner to avoid potential incidents. In essence, you are sacrificing your speed through corners and if the lead car doesn't, you will lose time to the lead car. This is not racing. This is akin to cruising and relying on catastrophic errors made by the lead car to pass.

 

[NevilleNobody]

No, I am advocating that one holds their line rather than throwing it up the inside. He was never any chance of hitting the lead car if he held his line.

 

[NSP525]

He didn't brake late, he slowed the car down to sufficiently hit the apex and would have completed the turn if the cars do not collide.

While I agree you have to react to what is in front of you, each incident should be judged independently.

We can we safely closely follow a car in a straight because we can reliably predict the car will not brake. Likewise, entering a corner, we also make predictions that a car will hit the apex at certain speeds. The Megane has taken this corner at speeds 15-20% lower than the limits of traction will allow. This is a staggering difference.

What you are advocating is for drivers to factor the possibility that the lead car will possibly do this for every corner. After all, every corner has the potential for this to happen. This would require you to brake 10-20m early for each and every corner to avoid potential incidents. In essence, you are sacrificing your speed through corners and if the lead car doesn't, you will lose time to the lead car. This is not racing. This is akin to cruising and relying on catastrophic errors made by the lead car to pass.

Thats why you react to what is happening in front of you like we agreed, if they brake early you have to have the knowledge and experience to decide, can I capitalize on his mistake? Or am I too far back to really have a chance of effecting a clean overtake. Also being in the slipstream makes out braking yourself and hitting your marks a little more difficult and requires earlier braking in most instances. You can't drive every lap like there is no one else on the track or this happens, so in a sense you really do need to be ready for this if your pursuing another car, especially if they have already given you indications that they may not have the pace you do.

 

[Moguzi]

I need a unbiased objective opinion, below is a short video of a incident in a lobby race. I am driving the Megane and the other driver is in the Supra.

Please watch first before reading my opinion below it.



In my opinion it was a clear divebomb. He came from too big a distance back to go for a gap that was closed(/not there).

I don’t want to name and shame this person, I never had issues in the past (although many others have), but posting this is mainly the result of the ‘argument’ we had after the race. He argued that ”divebombing isn’t illegal and that Senna did it aswell and he was the greatest driver ever and was never punished for his divebombing actions”.

Apparently that’s a valid reason “Senna did it too, so it’s okay”... my mind was blown...

I want to know what you think, if I turn out to be the one a fault, I’ll offer him my apologies the next time I see him in a lobby.

Clear divebomb, speed and angle tells to us everything. He/She is dirty driver. For example, look at the green car's drive line, that's correct.

 

[Ashthebash]

Racing incident caused by the Megane going WAY too slow into the corner and it needs to fit mirrors. If you are going excessively slowly at any point of the circuit people will try to get past, let alone into a big braking zone, it helps if you see them coming (although I don't actually think this started out as an attempted overtake). If it's a dive bomb, you get to jump out the way and watch as they go past then sail wide (wouldn't have happened in this instance though).

Supra driver a nob for quoting Senna, but not a dive bomber in this instance

 

[TT92]

He's simply hit a car that he didn't think was going to be there

I disagree. Someone would have to be a complete moron not to realise the car in front is going to head for the apex of the corner (at some stage). BTW this is where the contact happened.

.........the Megane going at walking pace off-line and not even turning for the corner

Anyone is allowed to take what ever line they like. Another point, *IF* the Megane driver was soooo slow then how is it he was in front after nearly a whole lap? And again, you are allowed to go as fast or slow as you like and take what ever line you like. What you are advocating is that it is OK to push slower cars out of the way with complete impunity and just write it off as a racing incident.

...... the Megane's own mistake in line and speed, in which unfortunately it has come worse off as a result.

No! His only mistake was racing in Sport Mode ;-) The Megane did nothing wrong. He is 100% the innocent party who was taken out by someone that has ambition in excess of skill level (or just a dirty driver).

Famine you are a very intelligent person, a very clued up car guy and a very fair moderator but for the life of me I cannot understand why you are defending this blatant "dive bomb" so hard. I could understand your point *IF* the cars were equal or the behind car had over 50% overlap at the apex but there wasn't. The Magane was hit on the rear quarter panel by a car that even had to climb all over the inner curb to do it.

 

[Famine]

I disagree. Someone would have to be a complete moron not to realise the car in front is going to head for the apex of the corner (at some stage).

Cars often don't. Drivers sometimes make mistakes and miss the apex. The Megane turned in extremely late - and only made the apex because it was also going extremely slowly.

Anyone is allowed to...

... do anything the game doesn't punish. We have no rules governing overlap or corner rights in GT Sport, and real-life rules are wildly varied and not universally applied. What's allowed and what isn't is not a helpful line of enquiry.

The Megane did nothing wrong.

The Megane was going far too slowly and turned into the corner far too late - into the path of a car which had made the (wrong) choice to go down the inside of an extremely slow-moving car that had made no attempt to turn the corner at the point they made the decision, or indeed for another 0.6s afterwards.

I cannot understand why you are defending this blatant "dive bomb" so hard

I'm not - and for two reasons.

It's not a divebomb - it cannot be because the car has not deliberately made contact in order to slow himself down or make the turn. If the Megane hadn't been there, the Supra would have made the corner just fine. I'm also not defending it, as you'll clearly see from all my posts saying that the Supra made a mistake in making the decision to go left.

It's a driver at a low DR level who's made an error in judgement, hitting another driver at a low DR level who's made an error in judgement - and admitted to doing so through struggling with that corner. That's a racing incident, and it's very unfortunate that the Megane has spun as a result.

The Magane was hit on the rear quarter panel by a car that even had to climb all over the inner curb to do it.

He's all over the inside kerb because he's gone left, then continued going left - wrongly - to avoid a car turning across his path, and gone as far left as he can, even going over the kerb... but still hit the car. It's simple target fixation.


Compared to some of the insane **** that goes on in Daily Races, this is about a benign an incident as I've ever seen discussed on here. I mean, yeah, I'd be pretty pissed if I were the Megane, but then I also race with mirrors and radar and wouldn't be turning in like that.

 

[Trone_Colby]

I don’t understand that how people think this is a complete divebomb when the Supra did everything right except hit the car. He even braked trying to avoid hitting the Megane. If the Megane stayed wide then this would be no issue.

The only thing what was wrong is that the Supra hit the Megane. He should have waited. Supra driver was probably thinking that the Megane was gonna miss the apex so he tried to take advantage as I would in that situation. If you think that was a divebomb, I would hate to see what you would call it when the driver behind you suddenly have to switch lanes in the braking zone to avoid hitting you.

Edit: This is what I see as a divebomb. This was me doing the diving. My initial intent was to take him out because he took me out earlier in the race by driving downhill after T1 and hit me. I backed out of hitting him but still dived and made it out ok.

 

[wtrain77]

To all of the people who believe the Megane is free of fault and holds the Supra entirely responsible, I ask you this: what does the Supra need to do differently to avoid running into the Megane, while also maintaining the optimal line?

He needs the foresight to brake 10-15 meters earlier than where he actually braked, use all of his traction to maximally brake, to finally reach the point of collision and find himself also at speeds significantly slower than is required to complete the turn. Keep in mind he has to do all of this to create a large enough buffer to avoid a Megane that is already roughly 40 meters in front of him!

 

[NSP525]

The race craft is poor from the supra even if he displays good pace for the corner. We all make mistakes but he could of easily slowed down enough to not make contact for how many car lengths back he was. Braking markers are really second priority to where other cars are on track in real time during a race. I base my braking points off where I am and other cars around me at that point in time are, slipstream also comes into this decision making and most of the time in a race where I'm in the middle of the field I find I have to be braking slightly earlier than normal to ensure I don't unfairly hit another car or ruin my own race. Simply put if the supra had any decent race craft he could have easily had the Megane overtaken on the main straight and gained DR and SR in the process instead he chose to remain a dirty driver.

 

[NevilleNobody]

To all of the people who believe the Megane is free of fault and holds the Supra entirely responsible, I ask you this: what does the Supra need to do differently to avoid running into the Megane, while also maintaining the optimal line?

He needs the foresight to brake 10-15 meters earlier than where he actually braked, use all of his traction to maximally brake, to finally reach the point of collision and find himself also at speeds significantly slower than is required to complete the turn. Keep in mind he has to do all of this to create a large enough buffer to avoid a Megane that is already roughly 40 meters in front of him!

Nope. Can brake on his normal line, by which time the Megane has turned in, as usual, and the Supra can exit on the normal line. Instead he jinks left for no other reason that to try and take a place when the gap in front was always going to close.

I am a touch sensitive to this because I tend to be a bit slow in/fast out so at times folks try jinking up the inside from way, way back. The Supra is just too far back not to be at fault, he had time to react.

 

[watto79]

Nope. Can brake on his normal line, by which time the Megane has turned in, as usual, and the Supra can exit on the normal line. Instead he jinks left for no other reason that to try and take a place when the gap in front was always going to close.

I am a touch sensitive to this because I tend to be a bit slow in/fast out so at times folks try jinking up the inside from way, way back. The Supra is just too far back not to be at fault, he had time to react.

I'm not sure about anyone else but I went back and watched the full race replay to get some context on this, and I posted my observations a couple of pages back. The Megane takes that apex at 65mph on lap 1 and was steadily taking it at the high 50's and low 60's the rest of the race. In this incident the Megane slows to 51mph at the apex. There's slow in/fast out and there's parking it on the apex. If you're going to brake that hard that unnecessarily you are going to cause problems for the cars behind you.

I understand your sensitivity on this, but the Megane has to share some of the blame. It's not 100% on the Supra. As others have suggested and I believe, the Supra wasn't even going for an overtake, just aiming at the apex to take the corner at a sensible speed that's well within the capability of driver and car. As they approach the apex there's a slow moving car on the outside that's left a huge gap that they aim for, that then get's smaller and smaller until it's gone. Sure, the Supra could have done more but it's difficult to anticipate a car slowing that much for no reason.

If the Megane takes the corner at anything like the speed they had previously then they're not going to be on the apex when the other car arrives.

I'm sure you disagree but that's my take on it.

 

[kilesa4568]

To all of the people who believe the Megane is free of fault and holds the Supra entirely responsible, I ask you this: what does the Supra need to do differently to avoid running into the Megane, while also maintaining the optimal line?

The optimal line wasn't available as there was a bit of Megane already on it. You don't disregard the car's in front to try and keep your lap times down.

The Megane isn't blameless but I'd put way less blame on them than the Supra as that was an extremely aggressive lunge.

 

[wtrain77]

The race craft is poor from the supra even if he displays good pace for the corner. We all make mistakes but he could of easily slowed down enough to not make contact for how many car lengths back he was. Braking markers are really second priority to where other cars are on track in real time during a race. I base my braking points off where I am and other cars around me at that point in time are, slipstream also comes into this decision making and most of the time in a race where I'm in the middle of the field I find I have to be braking slightly earlier than normal to ensure I don't unfairly hit another car or ruin my own race. Simply put if the supra had any decent race craft he could have easily had the Megane overtaken on the main straight and gained DR and SR in the process instead he chose to remain a dirty driver.

It is not easy to increase your rate of deceleration when you are already at or near the limits of the car.

This is the second time you mentioned slipstream as if it played a role. The slipstream was not a factor here, this is not to say it didn't have an affect on the Supra. The Supra braked just fine to make the corner. If the slipstream was not accounted for and he braked too late, he would have lost control and understeered past the apex right into the Megane causing a true divebomb. The Supra would be at 100% fault under such a scenario.

While it is true we have to anticipate braking earlier due to the reasons you mention, do you make a habit of doing so when a car is 40 meters ahead of you? If you do, I would argue you are not improving your racecraft.

Both cars exhibited poor racecraft which is to be expected with two C rated drivers, the Megane being the worse offender. The Megane created a situation that would be considered dangerous in real life driving.

I am an A+ driver and this is something that I never encounter because the lead car wouldn't do what the Megane did unless it was intentional. In fact, if I go off track and re-enter at a similar spot traveling at significantly less than ideal speeds, I would make it a point to stay off the racing line. Just because I happen to be on the racing line first, doesn't mean I have a right to be there as some seem to claim. If I do, I become an obstacle that cars behind me will necessarily have to try to avoid. This is not always easy to do when your car is at the limit mid-corner.

 

[Ashthebash]

To all of the people who believe the Megane is free of fault and holds the Supra entirely responsible, I ask you this: what does the Supra need to do differently to avoid running into the Megane, while also maintaining the optimal line?

The Supra driver clearly needed to pull over, get out and try to work out what the Megane was trying to do!



I'd be intrigued to know how different rated drivers view this incident to be fair. From my limited knowledge of some of the posters, it seems higher rated drivers are generally putting the blame onto the Megane. I know if I'm in that Supra and have braked at the normal point like that I certainly wouldn't expect there to be any chance of contact going into the corner because the gap is just too big - until the Megane comes to almost a standstill

 

[wtrain77]

I know if I'm in that Supra and have braked at the normal point like that I certainly wouldn't expect there to be any chance of contact going into the corner because the gap is just too big

Exactly. You can argue the Supra could have done things differently by taking a different line when it finally became clear the Megane is crossing the apex at a snail's pace. But the point is, I don't blame the Supra for braking when he did because of the significant gap and as a result, carrying the speed he did through the apex.

 

[NSP525]

DR is definitely a factor. I'm an A driver but at the lower end of the bracket forsure. That being said I find if I can qualify well in the top 6 or better you don't really have to worry about these situations as much but I still got a lot of lobbies where you have to be ready for some people to be slow on apexes especially if your down the grid or trying from the back. TBH I've been the supra more times than the megane myself in these instances so I do understand how this happens but I'm usually much closer than this guy was.

 

[TT92]

It's not a divebomb - it cannot be because the car has not deliberately made contact in order to slow himself down or make the turn.

OK I clearly see the difference of opinion we have now. It comes down to intent on the Supra driver's part and our definitions of "dive bomb". You are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt where I (and it would appear more than 50% of people that voted) do not.

1) intent to hit the car in front really can't be established unless the driver comes forward and honestly answers the question.

2) My definition of "dive bomb". When a vehicle attempts a pass from a distance too far away that has little chance of success and more than likely will end in contact with the vehicle in front. A reckless pass with little or no regard to the vehicle in front. A dangerous pass with little chance of success. (*IF* damaged was on his race would also have ended. BTW this is how you fix the penalty system as well. Turn damage on)

Point one, we will never know. Point two, guilty as charged, a reckless overtake with little regard for consequences and the game's rules clearly befitted him in the long run :-(

 

[wtrain77]

It should be clear there was no intention to pass at the apex when the Supra started braking. The Megane created the opportunity to pass by taking the corner way too slowly and leaving the door wide open. The Supra had only a second, perhaps fractions of a second to decide what to do: stay wide or go for the gap. You can argue he should have stayed wide, but being a C driver, it is not surprising to see that he chose to go for the gap. Once he chose to go for the gap, there was little he can do to avoid contact due to the car's momentum. As a result, I don't believe it was deliberate contact on the Supra's part.

 

[Ashthebash]

OK I clearly see the difference of opinion we have now. It comes down to intent on the Supra driver's part and our definitions of "dive bomb". You are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt where I (and it would appear more than 50% of people that voted) do not.

1) intent to hit the car in front really can't be established unless the driver comes forward and honestly answers the question.

2) My definition of "dive bomb". When a vehicle attempts a pass from a distance too far away that has little chance of success and more than likely will end in contact with the vehicle in front. A reckless pass with little or no regard to the vehicle in front. A dangerous pass with little chance of success. (*IF* damaged was on his race would also have ended. BTW this is how you fix the penalty system as well. Turn damage on)

Point one, we will never know. Point two, guilty as charged, a reckless overtake with little regard for consequences and the game's rules clearly befitted him in the long run :-(

By your own definition of a dive bomb, this isn't a dive bomb! The Supra isn't even attempting a pass until the Megane basically pulls over, then the Megane turns in with no awareness of the Supra on the inside.

To be attempting a pass from that far back the Supra would have to brake far too late to have a reasonable chance of making the corner, but it brakes pretty much on the mark and is making the corner easily

The contact in this incident is because the Megane was a) going too slowly which provided the speed difference that allowed the possibility of an overtake to manifest and b) not using mirrors and wasn't aware of the Supra coming up the inside. The contact is not down to the Supra doing anything wrong and it is nowhere near a dive bomb