Grade the "American Revolution."

[Joey D]

That Sky thing is pretty nice, is it going into production? It could be the Corvette's sister.

Yes it will be the sister car to the Soltice in 2006, I believe.

 

[JohnBM01]

Gloup, let me ask you. You were talking about design issues with GM. So based on popular reactions, which do you think is worse: A.) GM Styling, B.) BMW Styling, or C.) Neither?

 

[1X83Z]

it just needs more power and a 2 door version.

Do I need to roll out my list of two-door SUVs that have failed or are currently failing? I think so.

2-DOOR SUVs THAT HAVE FAILED OR ARE CURRENTLY FAILING
- Chevrolet Blazer
- Chevrolet Tahoe
- Chevrolet Tracker
- Daihatsu Rocky
- Dodge Raider
- Dodge Ramcharger
- Ford Bronco
- Ford Explorer
- Geo Tracker
- GMC Jimmy
- GMC Yukon
- Isuzu Amigo
- Isuzu Rodeo Sport
- Isuzu Trooper
- Jeep Cherokee
- Kia Sportage
- Land Rover Defender 90
- Mazda Navajo
- Mitsubishi Montero
- Nissan Pathfinder
- Suzuki Samurai
- Suzuki Sidekick
- Suzuki Vitara
- Suzuki X-90
- Toyota 4Runner
- Toyota Land Cruiser
- Toyota RAV4

And now, the opposite list.

2-DOOR SUVs THAT HAVE SUCCEEDED
- Jeep Wrangler

If there was one piece of advice I could give to manufacturers, it would be never to make 2-door SUVs. They don't succeed, period. That, and rear-drive minivans. And all-wheel drive sedans called "Suzuki Aerio" - not because I don't like it (I do) but because I've seen precisely one - including at dealers - and if you think I don't check the rear of every Aerio sedan I see, you're sorely mistaken.

 

[gloup]

Gloup, let me ask you. You were talking about design issues with GM. So based on popular reactions, which do you think is worse: A.) GM Styling, B.) BMW Styling, or C.) Neither?

Although a few years ago i hated BMW, i admit that i love the new design filosophy it has. The Series 1 BMW is very beautiful and its the first hatch rear weel drive. I havent seen all GM's products of course cause most of them are not imported in europe. however i can say that they dont match my taste. Even the Ford Focus that it is supposed to be a nice car i dont like it.

 

[Joey D]

2-DOOR SUVs THAT HAVE FAILED OR ARE CURRENTLY FAILING
- Chevrolet Blazer

Hey now a 22 year isn't failing, ok the Blazer boy said his part .

But you are M5 every 2 door SUV has failed since the Wangler is the only one people buy en mass for some reason or another. Wranglers are by far one of the worse automobiles I've ever driven, why it's still around boggles my mind.

And they made a 2 door Ford Explorer? That must have been aweful.

 

[Firebird]

But you are M5 every 2 door SUV has failed since the Wangler is the only one people buy en mass for some reason or another. Wranglers are by far one of the worse automobiles I've ever driven, why it's still around boggles my mind.

Did you ever stop and think about how many SUVs are on sale that can legitimately be taken offroad?

I count one.


The TJ is an absolutely unique product. You'd have to be an idiot to want to get rid of it.



Then again, you are a S-Blazer owner... I suppose you think the ZR2s were "good" offroad...

 

[Lethalchem]

I think it's more due to the fact they Chevy and Pontiac can't sell what they've built. They had to kill the Camaro and Trans AM, and had to do some major quick talking with the GTO flop. I'd think it would be more accurate to call it "desperation" rather than "revolution" .

 

[Joey D]

Did you ever stop and think about how many SUVs are on sale that can legitimately be taken offroad?

I count one.


The TJ is an absolutely unique product. You'd have to be an idiot to want to get rid of it.



Then again, you are a S-Blazer owner... I suppose you think the ZR2s were "good" offroad...

The Land Rover and Hummers are the only things taht I can think of that are good off road. But why in the hell would someone take an SUV and drive it off road. Off roading is pointless if you ask me.

Aslo Jeep Wranglers suck off road unless you do some heavy modding to them.

Lastly I hate the ZR2's...why would you lift a Blazer???

 

[Takumi Fujiwara]

That's insane! Why would you drive a gas guzzling, high ride-height, boxy vehicle with a 1970s-era suspension and chassis if you WEREN'T going to take it off road?

 

[Firebird]

The Land Rover and Hummers are the only things that I can think of that are good off road.

...which is funny because, save for the Hummer H1, none of them are worth **** on any terrain rougher than a gravel road.

But why in the hell would someone take an SUV and drive it off road. Off roading is pointless if you ask me.

Why in the hell would someone NOT take an SUV offroad?

Besides the fact that almost all SUVs currently on the market are so poorly designed they'd high-centre themselves in a parking lot...

Also Jeep Wranglers suck off road unless you do some heavy modding to them.

They're still better offroad than everything else.

Lastly I hate the ZR2's...why would you lift a Blazer???

I don't know. Makes more sense than lowering a Blazer and slapping an Xtreme badge on it though.

 

[1X83Z]

Hey now a 22 year isn't failing, ok the Blazer boy said his part .

The last few models have sold dismally. The two-door version of the Tahoe was crap, the two-door version of the old Blazer was crap, and - sorry to say it - but the two-door version of the current Blazer should've died with the second-generation Oldsmobile Bravada back when cancelling old cars was cool. Now we're stuck with a ten-year-old design - not exactly an "American Revolution".

But you are M5 every 2 door SUV has failed since the Wangler is the only one people buy en mass for some reason or another. Wranglers are by far one of the worse automobiles I've ever driven, why it's still around boggles my mind.

I love the economic concept of the Wrangler - Jeep hasn't made truly significant changes to that vehicle in the last sixteen years yet they continue to sell very well, and there's huge demand on the used market which boosts Jeep's average resale value and therefore their brand identity and status.

Plus - it's cute in the city and it rocks offroad.

And they made a 2 door Ford Explorer? That must have been aweful.

Where have you been!? They made three - 1991-1994, 1995-1999, and 2000-2003. There was also a Mazda version, the Navajo, from 1991 to 1994.

Did you ever stop and think about how many SUVs are on sale that can legitimately be taken offroad?

I count one.

I'd previously nominate Land Rover, but I'm less convinced with no Defender, no Discovery, and no legitimate Range Rover. Same goes for the former off-road champ Toyota Land Cruiser. The rest of Jeep's line doesn't strike me as being particularly capable anymore - Liberty looks like it could fall over in a slight breeze and I've yet to drive the new Grand Cherokee on anything more than a bit of snow. Touareg and Cayenne are great off-road but they're so expensive that I don't think they can "legitimately be taken offroad"; at least not without significant worries from their owner.

That said, I've been off-road in Nissan Xterras and they're legit - no Wranglers, but about as good as you can get without being as rough on-road as a Wrangler is.

...which is funny because, save for the Hummer H1, none of them are worth **** on any terrain rougher than a gravel road.

Agreed - and I question significantly the Hummer H1's ability off-road. I did a bit of checking - the cheapest Hummer on AutoTrader is $25000, and it seemed like a daily driver or damn close - 90-something-thousand miles since 1993. So price is already a factor. Then you have to factor in the damn thing's enormity. It's just huge - no-one in the world could ever accuse it of being nimble, particularly off-road where it's really so wide maneuverability is a major problem.

 

[JohnBM01]

I just got through watching the "World's Greatest Car Shows: Los Angeles." Co-host Eleanor Mondale didn't like the new styling of the newer Monte Carlo. I thought maybe the front grille could have been taller without overkill, but I thought it was more streamlined. Oh, and don't forget... it's got a V8 now. Do you like the newest Monte Carlo?

By the way, Hummer is still the most feared name off-road. That Hummer (especially the H1) is still the biggest beast off-road and on.

 

[VIPFREAK]

Like this?

 

[Firebird]

Co-host Eleanor Mondale didn't like the new styling of the newer Monte Carlo.

Eleanor Mondale is an ignorant ****. Her co-hosts have no semblance of brain activity either. SPEED should sack the whole lot.

The rest of Jeep's line doesn't strike me as being particularly capable anymore - Liberty looks like it could fall over in a slight breeze...

...

That said, I've been off-road in Nissan Xterras and they're legit - no Wranglers, but about as good as you can get without being as rough on-road as a Wrangler is.

Liberty is actually about as good (or bad, depending on your point of view) offroad as an Xterra. The axles in the Libby aren't as strong, but they articulate as well (or poorly, depending on your point of view) or better than an Xterra.

Underbody clearance and breakover angles favour the Xterra, but the Liberty has far better approach and departure angles.

Amusingly enough, while the Liberty looks tall and tippy, the Xterra is in fact taller and has a higher centre of gravity.

Touareg and Cayenne are great off-road

Volkswagen and Porsche would have you believe they are, but they aren't really. They're for yuppies with too much money for their own good, with offroad capabilities comparable to a new Range Rover: mediocre at best.

 

[retsmah]

To be fair to the Hummer, it wasn't really designed for climbing up those rock trail things that offroaders play on. It's a miliary truck, made for carrying machine guns, rocket launchers, radio equipment, that sort of thing. While a little jacked up Suzuki or Wrangler might be able to go places a Hummer cant, they wouldn't be of much use in any of the real world situations the Hummer is used in.

 

[Firebird]

Certainly. The H1 is too large for many if not most "trails", but it would be a disservice to reduce it to nothing more than a transport truck. It's fantastic in many offroad situations. Mud, water and sand, notably.

 

[1X83Z]

Amusingly enough, while the Liberty looks tall and tippy, the Xterra is in fact taller and has a higher centre of gravity.

It's taller, but it's also longer. I have the Liberty as being wider but my main problem with the thing is that it appears to slope up as if its two sides are going to intersect at a point about twenty feet above the vehicle.

Volkswagen and Porsche would have you believe they are, but they aren't really. They're for yuppies with too much money for their own good, with offroad capabilities comparable to a new Range Rover: mediocre at best.

I've driven the Cayenne legitimately off-road and I was impressed - it was very clearly designed so it could be used off-road if necessary.

My Range Rover (02, old style) hasn't been in anything more than snow, but it has been in eighteen inches of it and performed admirably. I do not trust the new Range Rover to do the same, or, as I mentiond, any current Land Rover products, and after a December blizzard even our ML500 was stranded a few days, a testament to the Range Rover's ground clearance and snow-fording abilities.

they wouldn't be of much use in any of the real world situations the Hummer is used in.

You mean taking up two spaces at the mall?



Wrangler would probably do pretty well in the desert, actually. You'd have to modify it a bit before sending it though, but it's better than creating an entirely new vehicle.

 

[JohnBM01]

Yeah, VipFreak. Kind of like that. To refer to some of the pictures of more recent Chevrolets, allow me to bring up this post by Gturismo1:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1403177&postcount=20

If you ask me, I was a little mixed up on styling for the newest Monte Carlo. Maybe since I'm thinking too much about imagining what it would look like with DuPont colors with Jeff Gordon behind the wheel (anyone care to Photoshop?). I think the last Monte Carlo looked pretty aggressive to me. I didn't really see it as ugly or anything. This newer design change can kind of mean it can be a potential sleeper. I don't think it looks too aggressive. It looks pretty soft... until you floor the gas pedal. And what do Americans know best? V8! I'm pretty sure it would have a nice growl when taken to the limit. For many, if it had rear-wheel drive, it would be a NASCAR Stock Car you can have on the road.

To add to M5Power, "MotorWeek" once had Motor News on the Porsche Cayenne going up good ol' Pikes Peak. I think during the run up the hill, it handled very well and could tackle the popular hillclimb in Colorado. I'd have to wonder if Porsche would make a return to Dakar with its Cayenne. Wonder how it would do. And I believe that if they did, they have some past Dakar, or at least some desert rally experience. So if you can tackle Pike's Peak well, you're good.

 

[JohnBM01]

By the way, I'm offically 22 years old now as of 12:01 AM CST. (Off-topic)

 

[McLaren'sAngel]

By the way, I'm offically 22 years old now as of 12:01 AM CST. (Off-topic)

Hiya! Meow! (='.'=)

Happy 22nd Birthday Johhny!

Back on topic!

I personally find that the new C6 Z06 is quite a leap toward the American Revolution as its look and performance just surprises many people! Soon, I will post those 2005 LA Auto show pic as soon as my mom pick up those pictures...

 

[skip0110]

It looks pretty soft... until you floor the gas pedal. And what do Americans know best? V8! I'm pretty sure it would have a nice growl when taken to the limit. For many, if it had rear-wheel drive, it would be a NASCAR Stock Car you can have on the road.

Why won't GM let Chevy have a rear-drive midsize? Why are they investing in a niche platform (Solstice) when what they really need to do is figure out how to build the CTS platform (sigma?) so it doesnt need a Cadillac pricetag?

 

[JohnBM01]

I have no answer for you, Skip, my man. Maybe I'm not the all-American car guy, but how can you achieve "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" with an American sedan that isn't rear-wheel drive? How can you be Dale Earnhardt Jr. or Jeff Gordon with a front-drive, V8-powered sedan? Of course, I'm speaking for the NASCAR fans that have a little Darlington or Daytona in them.

If the latest Monte Carlo was offered in rear-wheel drive, what do you think that would do for sales of the newest Monte Carlo and its popularity among the American public?

 

[MrktMkr1986]

If the new Chevy Cobalt SS had pillarless doors, then it would be 10 out of 10 (10 being the best). Maybe if the new C6 Corvette had pop-up headlights it would have been 8 out of 10. If the new Chevy Cobalt SS was turbocharged, then I would grade it 6 out of 10. If the Pontiac G6 didn't look like it was involved in a car accident before it left the factory, I'd say 3 out of 10. The Camaro and Firebird name is not currently being used, and since they are American icons, I'm now down to 1 out 10. And finally, the Chevy Impala is front-wheel drive.

GM's American Revolution =

 

[JohnBM01]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not real big on pop-up lights. I don't think I ever have, to be honest (rant at will, it won't help any). I think the Corvette C6's headlights could have based its headlights on the C5R. I actually think the Cobalt is a consdierable opponent my favorite of-the-moment sport compact, the Dodge Neon SRT-4. It (the Cobalt) looks much better than the last Cavalier that it replaces.

I know M5Power will counterattack me on this one, so let me prepare my statement. I can respect if the Pontiac's "First Ever G6" has sensational performance stats. I can respect if it can be comfortable for more than 2 people driving along. But if you ask me, Pontiacs of late have been told to be "Fuel For the Soul." I can't see or feel that excitement with the latest Pontiac designs. Most Pontiacs (except the new GTO) don't look the part. Even some of the last decade's Pontiacs look more favorable. I'd probably get a 1999 Grand Am or Grand Prix over the "First-Ever G6." Some lines look just right, but the overall front-end (and even rear end) balance is about as off as Ashlee Simpson's music. Of course, if you saw the Half Time performance at this year's Orange Bowl, you know where I'm getting at.

Anyways, I can just look at the G6, and I wouldn't be excited. The newest Viper excites me. The Saleen S7 excites me. The Ferrari 360 Modena excites me. Hell, even the Mazda RX-8 excites me. If the G6 is supposed to be exciting, all I feel is static cling. But of course, your call is more important than mine.

 

[1X83Z]

Why won't GM let Chevy have a rear-drive midsize? Why are they investing in a niche platform (Solstice) when what they really need to do is figure out how to build the CTS platform (sigma?) so it doesnt need a Cadillac pricetag?

The rear-drive non-premium midsize market is dead, period. It hasn't been done successfully in several decades.

but how can you achieve "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" with an American sedan that isn't rear-wheel drive?

That would be 'win on Sunday, sell on Monday.' Anyone can race.

If the latest Monte Carlo was offered in rear-wheel drive, what do you think that would do for sales of the newest Monte Carlo and its popularity among the American public?

It's hard to be less-popular than the current Monte Carlo, but if it were rear-drive, it would manage to indeed be less-popular somehow. There's little market for non-premium rear-drive coupes, there's even less market if they're low on performance. The Mustang gets away with it because it's a rockin' design and a good name - Monte Carlo has neither attribute and would sell about as well as the Acura SLX.

If the new Chevy Cobalt SS had pillarless doors, then it would be 10 out of 10 (10 being the best). Maybe if the new C6 Corvette had pop-up headlights it would have been 8 out of 10. If the new Chevy Cobalt SS was turbocharged, then I would grade it 6 out of 10. If the Pontiac G6 didn't look like it was involved in a car accident before it left the factory, I'd say 3 out of 10. The Camaro and Firebird name is not currently being used, and since they are American icons, I'm now down to 1 out 10. And finally, the Chevy Impala is front-wheel drive.

Yep - don't look now, it's the auto industry evolving!

Truth be told - front-wheel drive is better for sales, Camaro and Firebird have too much baggage to be put on any vehicle that isn't a great rear-drive performer and there's little market there unless they spend a lot of money and make a really nice one; supercharging, on a practical level, is better than turbocharging, and pop-up headlights are unbelievably unfashionable. The "American Revolution" at Chevrolet is a good period for the brand.

One of the interesting things about the G6 is that it's nine inches shorter than the Pontiac Grand Prix, but its wheelbase is two inches longer, making for one of the oddest designs on the market currently.

I can't see or feel that excitement with the latest Pontiac designs.

The style might be off, but the performance is getting there. Pontiac makes GM's most exciting non-premium cars. Of course, Chevrolet builds the Corvette, but as a whole, no GM brand - no American brand at all, even - beats Pontiac at performance for price.

 

[skip0110]

The rear-drive non-premium midsize market is dead, period. It hasn't been done successfully in several decades.

Just because Chevy can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done. I doubt if Joe Average cares if his Malibu/Impala is FWD or RWD, and his descision to buy such a car would not be affected. However, there is a huge group of enthusiasts who would love such a RWD car. Daimler Chrysler took a gamble with the Charger, and I think it's going to pay off. GM better catch this trend while it's rising rather than begin development once the market niche has been occupied.

The style might be off, but the performance is getting there. Pontiac makes GM's most exciting non-premium cars. Of course, Chevrolet builds the Corvette, but as a whole, no GM brand - no American brand at all, even - beats Pontiac at performance for price.

Finally! A new GM that compares favorably with a 3 year old Honda Accord. And what is with GM giving this car to an Oprah audience? This is the market segment that seeks "driving excitement"?

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Yep - don't look now, it's the auto industry evolving!

Sounds more like "de-evolution" if you ask me...

Truth be told - front-wheel drive is better for sales,

As much as that info is helpful, I wish that wasn't true...
Soon manufacturers will do away with all rear-wheel drive platforms in an effort to attract sales! j/k

and pop-up headlights are unbelievably unfashionable.

Agreed... I was just feeling nostalgic...

The "American Revolution" at Chevrolet is a good period for the brand.

Disagree... It's just a marketing ploy to attract more sales and evoke emotions when people hear "American Revolution". Not unlike the "Hemi" hype that Dodge started with their "new" Hemi Ram Pickup, Magnum etc.

One of the interesting things about the G6 is that it's nine inches shorter than the Pontiac Grand Prix, but its wheelbase is two inches longer, making for one of the oddest designs on the market currently.

Odd? The G6 looks like a Pontiac Aztec that was halfway through a car crusher and then someone at GM decided... hmmm that'll work... and they removed what was left of the Aztec and patched it together to make the G6.
Yet, I find myself strangely drawn to its quirky styling!

The style might be off, but the performance is getting there. Pontiac makes GM's most exciting non-premium cars. Of course, Chevrolet builds the Corvette, but as a whole, no GM brand - no American brand at all, even - beats Pontiac at performance for price.

2005 Ford Mustang... reasonably equipped for $26,740 and you get 300 horsepower and a 5-speed manual transmission. I know the '05 GTO has 400 horsepower, but wait for the SVT Cobra to come out and I still think the Mustang will beat it at performance for price.

 

[1X83Z]

Just because Chevy can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done. I doubt if Joe Average cares if his Malibu/Impala is FWD or RWD, and his descision to buy such a car would not be affected. However, there is a huge group of enthusiasts who would love such a RWD car. Daimler Chrysler took a gamble with the Charger, and I think it's going to pay off. GM better catch this trend while it's rising rather than begin development once the market niche has been occupied.

Up here the most important category on peoples' minds is whether their vehicles will be drivable for most of the winter. Unless you drive a Hummer, you're screwed the whole winter because we frequently get two feet at least twice, meaning it doesn't matter where the drive wheels are - but on normal days if you've got RWD, it's in the garage for four months at least. I can attest to that; I haven't driven my favorite-ever car, which is RWD, for more than a simple drive around the block since October. It's on peoples' minds - my dad, a resident of Colorado who's looking for a premium midsize vehicle, walked away from the Cadillac CTS upon learning it was RWD.

Finally! A new GM that compares favorably with a 3 year old Honda Accord.

It compares with a four-year-old Accord () and frankly I'd take the Accord - you can come up with a certified low-mileage '02 Accord with every option for the same price as a middle-of-the-road G6.

 

[1X83Z]

Disagree... It's just a marketing ploy to attract more sales and evoke emotions when people hear "American Revolution". Not unlike the "Hemi" hype that Dodge started with their "new" Hemi Ram Pickup, Magnum etc.

Agreed - when I say "American Revolution" I'm just doing so because everyone in this thread seems to be; I mean the 2004 to present Chevrolet model years and stand by that statement - I like many current Chevrolet products very much.

2005 Ford Mustang... reasonably equipped for $26,740 and you get 300 horsepower and a 5-speed manual transmission. I know the '05 GTO has 400 horsepower, but wait for the SVT Cobra to come out and I still think the Mustang will beat it at performance for price.

But I said as a whole - I can name for you six or seven pretty boring Ford products, whereas with the exception of the Pontiac Montana SV6 and Sunfire, Pontiac is a very exciting brand - of their remaning vehicles, all either are high-performance or have a performance variant.

 

[skip0110]

Up here the most important category on peoples' minds is whether their vehicles will be drivable for most of the winter. Unless you drive a Hummer, you're screwed the whole winter because we frequently get two feet at least twice, meaning it doesn't matter where the drive wheels are - but on normal days if you've got RWD, it's in the garage for four months at least. I can attest to that; I haven't driven my favorite-ever car, which is RWD, for more than a simple drive around the block since October. It's on peoples' minds - my dad, a resident of Colorado who's looking for a premium midsize vehicle, walked away from the Cadillac CTS upon learning it was RWD.

I live in New England, and while it's not snow capital U.S.A., I have some experience driving around in the snow in FWD (Civic), AWD (Impreza), and RWD (friend's Volvo wagon) cars. I think tires and ground clearance have more of an effect on all-weather worthiness than any other factor. And with traction control and a reasonable head on you shoulders, there is no reason that having a RWD car shoud put you in particular danger.

That said, what is stoping GM from using AWD to alleviate these fears?

Really, I think it's a matter of economy--cars are cheapest to design and assemble as FWD.