Grade the "American Revolution."

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M5Power
Agreed - when I say "American Revolution" I'm just doing so because everyone in this thread seems to be; I mean the 2004 to present Chevrolet model years and stand by that statement - I like many current Chevrolet products very much.

But I said as a whole - I can name for you six or seven pretty boring Ford products, whereas with the exception of the Pontiac Montana SV6 and Sunfire, Pontiac is a very exciting brand - of their remaning vehicles, all either are high-performance or have a performance variant.
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I get it now... :dunce: 💡 :D
Minor misunderstanding on my part...
I'm still biased toward Ford though... :scared: I can't believe I just said that... :scared:

Back O/T: I would still grade it the same as I did earlier. From a styling standpoint, the new Chevy Cobalt should really get pillarless doors. Without them it looks tacky.

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That extra sheetmetal above the driver side window (that makes up the door) looks weird. It should have been pillarless... the lines of the car would have been "cleaner" as a result and it would more like a sports car.
 
skip0110
I think tires and ground clearance have more of an effect on all-weather worthiness than any other factor. And with traction control and a reasonable head on you shoulders, there is no reason that having a RWD car shoud put you in particular danger.
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I honestly think it's drive wheels followed by tires - rear drive vehicles become conveyances in the snow that must be treated solely as machines to get from one place to another, not to mention extra care involved in driving. I do agree that traction control has made it less of a bother.

That said, what is stoping GM from using AWD to alleviate these fears?
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No idea - Malibu Maxx AWD would score major points with me.

Really, I think it's a matter of economy--cars are cheapest to design and assemble as FWD.
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I wonder if there's fuel economy reasoning in there too - it'd be hard to test though (can't exactly find a rear-drive Camry for comparison) but I wouldn't be surprised.
 
MrktMkr1986
From a styling standpoint, the new Chevy Cobalt should really get pillarless doors. Without them it looks tacky.
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Well, not all cars can be perfect:

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:D
 
You know, during Speed Channel's "The World's Greatest Auto Shows: Miami," a rhetorical question asked was "what does Oprah Winfrey and the Pontiac G6 have in common?" My joke of an answer was "they're both ugly."

And have you seen that Pontiac Torreno that's coming out? Pontiac's designs are going to Hell and burning like rotiserrie chicken (thank you for the spell check, Merriam Webster!).

I guess my only real fear with a RWD car is that if you don't control it well enough, you can spin it out. I know from Gran Turismo experience and some go-karting I've done. The inexperienced driver would probably not handle the car properly and end up in some wicked spin. That's been my only real problem with RWD. I'm just looking at it from an inexperienced driver's standpoint. Front drive is about traction, to me. And the 4WD and AWD systems make for some great handling, especially in rough situations.

The biggest offering GM has (granted you have the cash) is the Cadillac STS, in which our own M5Power says that it can very well compete with the Audis, Jaguars, and BMWs.

For those who say that "An American Revolution" is nothing more but a marketing ploy, explain why.
 
M5Power
But I said as a whole - I can name for you six or seven pretty boring Ford products, whereas with the exception of the Pontiac Montana SV6 and Sunfire, Pontiac is a very exciting brand - of their remaning vehicles, all either are high-performance or have a performance variant.
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Dodge is coming along fairly well with their SRT line. The SRT4 is best bang for the buck out there that I know of. They have a nice variety of vehicles besides just a sports car. A little something for everyone: Compact crowd (SRT4 Neon), Truck crowd (SRT10), Family crowd (Magnum), and the sports car crowd (Viper). Ford has done the same with the Marauder, SVT/Saleen/Roush Focus, SVT Lightning, SVT Cobra, and all the Mustang versions (Saleen/Roush/Mach/Bullit) etc. I may be behind on my Pontiac vehicles, or perhaps they're slipping my mind, but besides the GTO, what performance vehicles does Pontiac have?
 
Lethalchem
Ford has done the same with the Marauder, SVT/Saleen/Roush Focus, SVT Lightning, SVT Cobra, and all the Mustang versions (Saleen/Roush/Mach/Bullit) etc. I may be behind on my Pontiac vehicles, or perhaps they're slipping my mind, but besides the GTO, what performance vehicles does Pontiac have?
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The Maurader is going to be killed. The SVT Cobra won't be around for a few more years, the SVT Focus is dead, and continuation of the Lightning has not yet been announced.

A FWD mounting of a lower displacement (4.3 I think) LS1-series V8 is planned in the Grand Prix GXP. Pontiac Bonnevilles are already available with V8s. Then there is the upcoming G6 with a retractable hardtop, and the Solstice.
 
skip0110
The Maurader is going to be killed. The SVT Cobra won't be around for a few more years, the SVT Focus is dead, and continuation of the Lightning has not yet been announced.

A FWD mounting of a lower displacement (4.3 I think) LS1-series V8 is planned in the Grand Prix GXP. Pontiac Bonnevilles are already available with V8s. Then there is the upcoming G6 with a retractable hardtop, and the Solstice.
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As I said in my post, "Ford HAS done..." meaning that's what they've done lately. The SVT focus will not be produced, but a performance version will be badged under a different name. The Cobra will be out next year. The Lightning and Cobra was delayed only because Ford's resources were put into production of the Ford GT. As for Pontiac, I don't count on anything until it's actually produced, and at this point they have nothing.
 
Lethalchem
Dodge is coming along fairly well with their SRT line. The SRT4 is best bang for the buck out there that I know of. They have a nice variety of vehicles besides just a sports car. A little something for everyone: Compact crowd (SRT4 Neon), Truck crowd (SRT10), Family crowd (Magnum), and the sports car crowd (Viper). Ford has done the same with the Marauder, SVT/Saleen/Roush Focus, SVT Lightning, SVT Cobra, and all the Mustang versions (Saleen/Roush/Mach/Bullit) etc.
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Good point on Dodge - they're about as performance-oriented as Pontiac at this point. Ford has cancelled every vehicle you've listed, so they're not exactly performance-based over there.

I may be behind on my Pontiac vehicles, or perhaps they're slipping my mind, but besides the GTO, what performance vehicles does Pontiac have?
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Bonneville GXP, which has the same 4.6-liter V8 used in the Cadillac STS; G6 GTP or GXP, both due soon; Grand Prix GTP with a 260-horsepower supercharged V6; GTO; and Vibe GT which is the most performance-oriented car in its segment. Not too bad - Aztek, Sunfire, and Montana SV6 are the let-downs, though the first two are scheduled to be cancelled.
 
revolution implies a change. a different direction. an overthrowing of the old guard.

theres nothing revolutionary about GMs current cars. only the solstice comes close. time will tell if it is. some will decry my saying the solstice and not the corvette. well, i dont think the newcorvette is as revolutionary as the C5. The C5 (Z06) needed just a much better interior to be truly world class, its performance was already near supercar humbling.
this new one moves the game on slightly, goes up a lot in price (Z06) with a still subpar interior. sounds more like evolution than revolution.

the styling of all thier cars is too bland. its designed to be inoffensive, and ends up being unappealing as a result.
the engines arent class leading. arent fuel economy leading, arent emissions leading. so the corvette makes 500hp. it passes EPA standards, and is OEM. yes, but its seven liters. thats a whole lot of engine.
the suspensions arent anything to write home about either. (magneride(?) excluded)
nor are the shells/ chassis'/ frames.

it boils down to this. there is nothing revolutionary or class leading about GMs current lineup. period. aside from the corvette, which i said was already excellent, theres nothing there to drool over;

solstice, yes. if it comes in under 20K as promised by lutz.
CTS-V, kinda. im not partial to its looks. they are different, but not what i would call beautiful.
thats about it.
thats not revolutionary.

score 3/10.

dodge (DC) is more revolutionary so far, simply for having the charger, 300, magnum. big, rear wheel drive and american, and not aimed entirely at the AARP contingent. i think the HEMI nonsense is hype. dodge should make the razor concept and a smaller rear wheel drive sedan. i like the new, smaller, viper coupe.
dodges score is 6/10
 
neanderthal
yes, but its seven liters. thats a whole lot of engine.
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It's just six - still a whole lot of engine though.

it boils down to this. there is nothing revolutionary or class leading about GMs current lineup. period.
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Seen Cadillacs lately? Or many new Chevrolets?
 
The 500hp motor that will be in the Z06 is a 427, or 7 liters. Actually its 427.6, so it should be rounded to 428... but that doesn't sound anywhere near as cool as 427.

JohnBM01
I guess my only real fear with a RWD car is that if you don't control it well enough, you can spin it out. I know from Gran Turismo experience and some go-karting I've done. The inexperienced driver would probably not handle the car properly and end up in some wicked spin. That's been my only real problem with RWD. I'm just looking at it from an inexperienced driver's standpoint.
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Ask somebody who was around back when all cars were rear wheel drive, I think they'll tell you that there weren't cars sliding and spinning out all over the place. A typical street car really won't oversteer much, unless you are giving it a lot of gas through a corner. For an inexperienced driver who isn't driving hard there probably isn't even a noticable difference.
 
M5Power
Good point on Dodge - they're about as performance-oriented as Pontiac at this point. Ford has cancelled every vehicle you've listed, so they're not exactly performance-based over there.
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Huh? The Cobra will be out in 2006. Both the Cobra and Lightning were delayed while SVT focused on the Ford GT. The Lightning is delayed while production is focused on the Cobra. SVT is a small offshoot of Ford, and can only divide manpower so much. The Focus and Marauder have been cancelled, but as I said, there will still be a performance version of the focus, just not called a SVT. All the mustangs are available currently. So of the cars I listed, only the Marauder is actually dead. I'd say Pontiac is heading up the rear of the pack at this point.
 
retsmah
Ask somebody who was around back when all cars were rear wheel drive, I think they'll tell you that there weren't cars sliding and spinning out all over the place.
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That's because they were significantly heavier and had nowhere near the power of today's cars.

Lethalchem
Huh? The Cobra will be out in 2006.
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Yet it's 2005...

So of the cars I listed, only the Marauder is actually dead. I'd say Pontiac is heading up the rear of the pack at this point.
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Walk into a dealer and attempt to buy one of those cars new. You can't. They might be coming out soon, but they aren't out yet - my point. Duh?
 
I personally think it will take Ford a couple years to get back to the solidity of the line-up they had '90-early '00s. However, the line-up should improve greatly from this year and on. The Lightning will be absent for awhile but it will be back from what I understand. The Mustang already has gobs of plans. The SVT Focus is dead and as someone stated there is a new higher performance Focus (Focus ST) but I will readily say it is most certainly not as good as the SVT was. I really can't wait for them to kill the retro Thunderbird though. The 3.9L DOHC Jaguar motor making 280 hp is interesting and it's a pretty fast birdy but the price and cosmetics I can't really appreciate. Fortunately I believe '05 is the last year for it, though I don't think they have a new bird on the drawing board. The new Ford Five Hundred is actually pretty cool, and I believe there's an AWD model, but I'm not sure what it's competing with exactly. It's a shame that the Marauder is dead, those cars are just sweet... almost in the same way a GNX is sweet.

I'll say I do like what GM has been doing a lot BUT until the Camaro and Firebird are back I find it hard to appreciate what they do. The GTO is already pretty nice but the newer GTOs will be MUCH better.

DaimlerChrysler? The SRT line-up is pretty good, but they have no affordable muscle-car whatsoever. They're bringing the Charger back but I pray, for their sakes, the concept doesn't become reality. I'm basically giving up on DaimlerChrysler, They don't have much to bring to the table IMHO aside from the SRT-4. All I can say to them is don't **** up the Charger.
 
M5Power
Walk into a dealer and attempt to buy one of those cars new. You can't. They might be coming out soon, but they aren't out yet - my point. Duh?
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He's simply reminding you that Ford isn't slouching.
 
So would you all say that Ford's loss is GM's gain? Has the momentum shifted? Where does DaimlerChrysler stand in this American triple threat?
 
JohnBM01
So would you all say that Ford's loss is GM's gain? Has the momentum shifted? Where does DaimlerChrysler stand in this American triple threat?
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Well I think right now GM is the most on top of things. Ford should have a nice arrangement in 2006, whereas DaimlerChrysler I haven't heard about their plans much aside from the Charger. They better do something slick soon though, or GM and Ford will likely make business life too hard for them.
 
Something slick? Like, the 300C and Magnum perhaps? And the Crossfire (well, almost :P).

You're obviously more of a Ford fan then I am, but didn't they kill off the new Tbird already?
As for the Maurader, wasn't it an underpowered, poor-handling, lukewarm Crown Vic knockoff excuse for a large sport sedan? (My scource of information on car that was extremely biased, I'll admit ;). )
 
M5Power
Walk into a dealer and attempt to buy one of those cars new. You can't. They might be coming out soon, but they aren't out yet - my point. Duh?
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Don't be a moron. Just because a car is delayed for a year doesn't mean it's "Dead".
 
Emohawk
Something slick? Like, the 300C and Magnum perhaps? And the Crossfire (well, almost :P).

You're obviously more of a Ford fan then I am, but didn't they kill off the new Tbird already?
As for the Maurader, wasn't it an underpowered, poor-handling, lukewarm Crown Vic knockoff excuse for a large sport sedan? (My scource of information on car that was extremely biased, I'll admit ;). )
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The Mercury Maurauder was a 4200 lb. muscle car with 18 inch chrome wheels as a factory option. It ran 14 second passes in the quarter mile. While it doesn't handle good, that's what you get with 4200 pounds. Then you have the Trilogy Maurauder which was supercharged, and I have no idea how much faster that is. You simply can't knock those cars, they are simply great, being very powerful for their size yet still as functional as a Crown Victoria or Grand Marquis.

If you think the 300C is slick then you need help. And don't even MENTION the Crossfire, only a Mopar indulging moron would buy that car, which doesn't even meet it's competition at any level yet it's in the same price ranges. The Magnum on the other hand I do like.

Like I said, '05 is the last year for the T-Bird as far as I know. It's not like they're killing it off though, it's more like it's eligible for retirement considering it's been around since '55.

I'll admit I'm a tad biased towards Ford and GM, but I really don't see much in DaimlerChrysler. That's just me though.
 
I'm sure you can get a Navigator with 18" chrome rims as a factory option as well, that doesn't make it any good. 14sec quarter miles are pretty good for something weighing that much though, maybe it isn't all that awefull. I'd still rather have a Panthera Crownus.
I'm not a huge fan of the 300C, but it is turning a lot of heads. The Crossfire is pretty hidious, but that's a matter of taste. It's certainly cheaper then a new SLK, and it's a step up from the old one. The Magnum sure is cool though.
I guess I really don't know my Thunderbirds, I thought it was discontinued beteween your wedge type thing and the present 'longest 2 seater ever'. Maybe 'euthanized' would be a good word for what they're doing do it, given it's sluggish sales performance.
I'm a tad biased towards DC, but I see things I like across the board. Big Pontiacs are cool, if only they were RWD. Ford has that whole retro thing going, and the Focus is pretty nifty.
 
Lethalchem
Don't be a moron. Just because a car is delayed for a year doesn't mean it's "Dead".
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If the Cobra is coming out for the 2006 year, it'll have been "delayed" for two years. Ditto the Lightning, but add another year to that. I've got to be totally honest with you - if a car is not in production, I'm not about to judge a manufacturer based on it. Once they start producing the car and it's available to the public, then it counts for something - that's why I don't pay attention to concept cars or upcoming models.

Unless of course you want to consider Toyota the sportiest company ever because the Supra might one day return!

You're obviously more of a Ford fan then I am, but didn't they kill off the new Tbird already?
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No, although I was at the Detroit auto show that 2006 would be the end of the line - thank God.

14sec quarter miles are pretty good for something weighing that much though, maybe it isn't all that awefull. I'd still rather have a Panthera Crownus.
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Yeah - too bad that statistic's total crap. I'd call its quarter mile 15.2 on a good day, 0-60 in around seven seconds. Who the hell told you fourteens, Drifting Thunda?
 
Chevrolet has gone through a revolution of change. The new C6, Colorado, SSR, Aveo. Lots of new models or drastic changes in a current model.
 
Drifting Thunda
The Mercury Maurauder was a 4200 lb. muscle car with 18 inch chrome wheels as a factory option. It ran 14 second passes in the quarter mile. While it doesn't handle good, that's what you get with 4200 pounds.
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They shouldn't have bothered with the chrome, given it black steelies and hubcaps, a 6 spd stick, and a rubber floor. :D
 
M5Power
No, although I was at the Detroit auto show that 2006 would be the end of the line - thank God.
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:( :nervous: :banghead: :grumpy: :mad:

I want my T-Bird back! That's an American Revolution!
 
M5Power
Unless of course you want to consider Toyota the sportiest company ever because the Supra might one day return!

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Yeah - too bad that statistic's total crap. I'd call its quarter mile 15.2 on a good day, 0-60 in around seven seconds. Who the hell told you fourteens, Drifting Thunda?
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I know you don't care and aren't paying attention, this is for everyone else:
Its a mid-engine V8 or V10 supercar-price-range Lexus. There is nothing Supra about it, it is not a Supra! It even has a name now, it's three letters with a dash somewhere. Supra has five letters. They're not the same! At all!

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Yeah, in the post right above mine.
Someone else says: "...0-60mph in 6.5 seconds as claimed. That’s not difficult to prove, as we already know a Lincoln Continental with the same power-to-weight ratio does that in 7.8 seconds."
 
M5Power
If the Cobra is coming out for the 2006 year, it'll have been "delayed" for two years. Ditto the Lightning, but add another year to that. I've got to be totally honest with you - if a car is not in production, I'm not about to judge a manufacturer based on it. Once they start producing the car and it's available to the public, then it counts for something - that's why I don't pay attention to concept cars or upcoming models.

Unless of course you want to consider Toyota the sportiest company ever because the Supra might one day return!
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You make a good point, but what about manufacturers who intentially have a release schedule set up that skips a few years? What I mean is, there was a 1999 Cobra, but 2000 was skipped unless you want to count the limited produciton 2000R (which wasn't even really available to the public). There was a Cobra in 2001, but 2002 was skipped. There was 2003 and 2004 (leftovers? No changes were made), and 2005 was skipped. Seems to be an intentional pattern, and only the Ford GT threw it off a year. I don't see that as the same thing as the Supra's situation.
 
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