Gran Turismo 5 vs. Forza 3 - AI comparison Debunked

[RWB1213]

I would agree on PARTS on the AI engine (probably because it controls more cars too), but some I find actually better, like the changes of pace and the fact that with a comparable car the AI is actually competitive.



GT5's AI makes mistakes (quite a lot of them actually, they collide with each other, get into crashes, go into the sand quite a bit), they do become less and more aggressive dynamically depending on racing conditions and so forth. I did a lot of observation in the last few days (even because I have to deliver a review soon), and I did see quite a lot of things that many people missed.

Great work clarifying and debunking the obstacle avoidance myth. Now, how about a comparison with all vehicles moving. Perhaps you should run side by side comparisons of how the AI handles moving vehicles. Perhaps a side by side of Laguna with you driving at static speeds, 50, 80, and race speed. I think we'll see that GT5 does not hold up as well, either because it is not making enough "decisions" or does not have enough alternate routes.

For the record, I think the AI in Forza is allowed to cheat. Let me explain. Under hard braking, the AI cars appear to have ridiculous stopping ability beyond the scope of the physics engine. While this is not realistic, it helps reduce the number of decision points the game has to process, and saves us from the constant rear-ending.

 

[Abriael]

The fact that much smaller games like SSV8 Next Challenge & Ferrari Challenge could have much better AI than GT5 is what is so disappointing. In my opinion, PD really needs a kick in the pants about this, NOT videos excusing or justifying their approach.

You're forgetting a little detail. Much smaller games also mean much more hardware resources free to be used with the AI. That's not so inconsequential.

 

[Moontallico]

Great comparison
Still, if people want realistic AI, they better just go race in real life.
And any way, both GT5 and Forza 3 are games, meant to amuse. People should just pick their favourite game and stop making such a fuzz about one being better than the other...

 

[Abriael]

Great work clarifying and debunking the obstacle avoidance myth. Now, how about a comparison with all vehicles moving. Perhaps you should run side by side comparisons of how the AI handles moving vehicles. Perhaps a side by side of Laguna with you driving at static speeds, 50, 80, and race speed. I think we'll see that GT5 does not hold up as well, either because it is not making enough "decisions" or does not have enough alternate routes.

Fact is that I'm not interested in making an actual comparison. With one game having 8 cars on track and the other having 12, with one having broader tracks and other little details, it's basically impossible to make a comparison in 100% equal conditions.

My aim was simply to bust a completely rigged video, and the myth that the GT5 AI follows the line no matter what and will ignore obstacle.

The rest will always be a matter of opinion and preference.

 

[warpspeed2slow]

You guys probably saw the Gran Turismo 5 vs. Forza 3 - AI comparison video that went around the internet for a while.

As someone that played both games (and Forza 3 for a loooong time), while the GT5 AI is far from perfect, that video always seemed very fishy to me, so I worked on it, and found some interesting facts. basically the video had been staged carefully in order to make GT5 lose the comparison automatically. This video is the result of that research.

Mind you, this video's aim is NOT to say that the GT5 AI is perfect, or better (or worse) than that of Forza 3. With the limited memory resources of a console of this generation and 12 cars on track, I doubt we'll ever have a perfect AI.

It simply shows that contrary to what "the internet" says, in most cases the GT5 AI will detect obstacles and will try to avoid them. Most of the times it'll manage, sometimes it'll fail (otherwise it wouldn't even be able to overtake). If you cherry-pick locations and situations, you'll be able to make the AI of every car simulator fail miserably, and that's exactly what the author of the original video did.

It's sad that people feel the need to rig a video to make a game look worse than it is.

So you made a somewhat dishonest video to counter a contrary somewhat dishonest video.

The A.I. in Forza 3 is much better, that doesn't mean that's it's better in every way, or that it's perfect. Since both games have 3 difficulty settings you really can setup them up in a way to make the video look however you want. Though the one in favor of GT5 is more dishonest because those settings are not adjustable past the arcade mode.

I think a lot of the positive responses are from people who haven't played both games and they aren't really in a position to judge.

 

[warpspeed2slow]

This is pretty awesome. I'm about to embed the vid at another board I go to.

You seem like a winner.

 

[CeeJay]

The AI is both great and bad at times but seriously, when doing these things the "if you're bumped it's more than likely your fault" line is a horrible defense of the AI system. I'm not arguing for bad AI or anything like that but if you're going to blame human error on the 'false' impression that the AI is bad in GT5 then people will have to also drop the "if you want smarter opponents race real people!" line because according to your defense, the human is to blame for bringing down the brilliant AI in GT5!

 

[warpspeed2slow]

I would agree on PARTS on the AI engine (probably because it controls more cars too), but some I find actually better, like the changes of pace and the fact that with a comparable car the AI is actually competitive.



GT5's AI makes mistakes (quite a lot of them actually, they collide with each other, get into crashes, go into the sand quite a bit), they do become less and more aggressive dynamically depending on racing conditions and so forth. I did a lot of observation in the last few days (even because I have to deliver a review soon), and I did see quite a lot of things that many people missed.

And... you countered his post how? He never said the GT5's ai don't make mistakes just that they seem like robots compared to Forza 3's, which is true.

The whole 1/2 year I played it and visited forums I never saw any posts questioning their a.i. like GT5's. I guess you can say it's debatable but the reviews have spoken as well on this topic in favor of Forza 3.

 

[Abriael]

The AI is both great and bad at times but seriously, when doing these things the "if you're bumped it's more than likely your fault" line is a horrible defense of the AI system. I'm not arguing for bad AI or anything like that but if you're going to blame human error on the 'false' impression that the AI is bad in GT5 then people will have to also drop the "if you want smarter opponents race real people!" line because according to your defense, the human is to blame for bringing down the brilliant AI in GT5!

It's actually pretty simple. Most of the time when the AI bumps you, it's because you braked immensely early (thing that would cause a crash even in real life more often than not), since the AI brakes early by itself quite often, or because you invaded it's line in an overly aggressive way (same as before in real life). The AI doesn't intentionally bump you, and actually does TRY to avoid you, but if you slam the brakes and swerve in their line, they WILL bump you, and it would take top notch reflexes even for a professional driver to avoid that in real life.

It's not a defense or anything. It's simply how AI works.

And... you countered his post how? He never said the GT5's ai don't make mistakes just that they seem like robots compared to Forza 3's, which is true.

Robots don't make mistakes, they don't dynamically change their pace, or become less or more aggressive.

The whole 1/2 year I played it and visited forums I never saw any posts questioning their a.i. like GT5's. I guess you can say it's debatable but the reviews have spoken as well on this topic in favor of Forza 3.

Yes, and everyone that has played GT5 for a little while knows that most reviews on it are nitpicky smoking crap that take rumors as facts and whose writers played the game for 3 hours tops.

 

[Chunk]

I've played all the GT and Forza games except GT for the PSP and the Prologue games, and I have to say, GT's car AI is infuriatingly bad. If I were to pick one difference between Forza and GT that would send me running to Forza, it would be GT's AI.

Forza's AI isn't amazing; it does its share of dumb things. But after watching my GT5 AI driver in traffic I have to say the absolute worst part of GT--BY FAR--is the AI. It's to the point where I'd call Forza a racing sim, and GT5 a driving sim. I just don't have much fun in GT unless I'm in clear air, with nary an AI car to be seen.

The sad part is, it has been such since GT1! I would not be surprised to learn that the AI code has not been touched since GT1.

Now, GT5 with Forza's AI, car modding, and tire model (or at least the expulsion of GT5's comfort tires) would be a game to behold! I like GT5, but it's a top-notch game knocked down to simply a fun one by horrible flaws like its brain-dead AI.

 

[Daverytimes]

Abriael, i was the one that posted the article on N4g.com (the first one) sorry for not giving a shout out to you. Also the video is amazing, superb editing and great quality. Job well done sir 👍👍

 

[Abriael]

The sad part is, it has been such since GT1! I would not be surprised to learn that the AI code has not been touched since GT1.

I would be very surprised, since the AI in GT5 does a ton of things that the AI in GT1 did not.

It's when I read this kind of hyperbolic crap that I know that some people simply persuade themselves of one way or the another just because they love to hate on something.

 

[diegorborges]

I would be very surprised, since the AI in GT5 does a ton of things that the AI in GT1 did not.

It's when I read this kind of hyperbolic crap that I know that some people simply persuade themselves of one way or the another just because they love to hate on something.

The often called "trolls" or "haters"

Yeah, internet is just getting a terrible place for intelligent discussions latelly.

 

[ruf-ctr2]

The AI in GT5 is the worst in every racing game I ever played. Even in "NFS Shift" they are not as "agressive" and do not bump into your car as much - event there it is part of the gameplay as you get points for "good" and "bad" driving. So pushing your opponent of the track is part of the game there....

But what is most annoying on the GT5 AI is that coalitions do not have much affect on the AI - they crash into you so your car completely "flys" of the track - but they don't move a bit, they just keep on driving. So I tried if it is possible to spin the AI an I could not do it. Even if I drive into them with full speed they slide a few meters and then they keep on losing nearly no speed

 

[Devedander]

The biggest flaw I have found in GT5's AI is not this purported inability to detect unlikely obstacles like a car stopped in the road, but it's awareness of you when you are near it especially in turns.

The result is that the AI keeps "testing" if the road near it is clear often to your detriment.

I find often taking a turn and even sometimes on straights, that the AI drives foolishly, repeatedly ramming into me when we are side by side to see if I am there. I could almost write this off as simulating a real person who can't see a blind spot if they didn't do it multiple times on the same stretch of road.

 

[Turbonutter]

The sad part is, it has been such since GT1! I would not be surprised to learn that the AI code has not been touched since GT1.

Oh come on now. I'm certainly no big fan of the AI for this game, but really... that's just a load of nonsense. If you have access to GT1 or 2, go play it, I'm sure it would be an eye-opening experience, and not in a good way.

 

[ruf-ctr2]

The often called "trolls" or "haters"

Yeah, internet is just getting a terrible place for intelligent discussions latelly.

And people that keep defending things that are the biggest crap - like the AI in GT5 are called "Fanboys".
I played GT1, 2 3 and 4 and in non of this games the AI annoyed me as much as the one in GT5 does.

 

[Abriael]

And people that keep defending things that are the biggest crap - like the AI in GT5 are called "Fanboys".
I played GT1, 2 3 and 4 and in non of this games the AI annoyed me as much as the one in GT5 does.

Maybe because with them you actually had realistic expectations, as opposed to the expectations you had in GT5?

 

[Turbonutter]

About the only thing I've taken away from this thread is that it's extremely difficult to have a rational discussion on this subject...

 

[MidianGTX]

And people that keep defending things that are the biggest crap - like the AI in GT5 are called "Fanboys".
I played GT1, 2 3 and 4 and in non of this games the AI annoyed me as much as the one in GT5 does.

How about you go and cry into a pillow, because this topic isn't about saying GT5's AI is perfect, it's about debunking some pathetic Forza fan's video with a less biased one. Perhaps still a little biased, who knows, but it's clearly using fairer conditions than that turd of a video that came before.

 

[ruf-ctr2]

Maybe because with them you actually had realistic expectations, as opposed to the expectations you had in GT5?

No because honestly I had no expectations in the AI of GT5 because even before GT2 was released PD told us it will have such a great AI as we had never seen it before. But in the end it was as bad as in GT1 - in so it was in GT3 and GT4. And I could live with it because AI was "just" stupid - but in GT5 it is really annoying - they do much bore bumping as before.
And as I wrote before in the previous GTs when they crashed into you both would slide of the track. In GT5 the AI crashes so much that I spin multiple times - and the AI car ? - It slides a few meters an keeps on driving. - That was different in previous GTs.
So in my opinion AI got worst...

 

[Biggles]

You're forgetting a little detail. Much smaller games also mean much more hardware resources free to be used with the AI. That's not so inconsequential.

That's possible - I really can't judge. However, if it's true, then I would say (yet again) more resources should be allocated to the AI & less to "premium" modeling a (for instance) kubelwagen. My vote would always go to a smaller more "perfect" game, rather than a sprawling, half-baked game that doesn't manage to provide some of the essential features of a decent racing game.

I think the verdict is unanimous (excluding the hopelessly biased): GT's AI always has been & remains sub-standard. Thankfully, we have online to (partially) compensate for this problem.

 

[ruf-ctr2]

How about you go and cry into a pillow, because this topic isn't about saying GT5's AI is perfect, it's about debunking some pathetic Forza fan's video with a less biased one. Perhaps still a little biased, who knows, but it's clearly using fairer conditions than that turd of a video that came before.

What about you using your brain before writing. I never wrote that AI in GT5 should be perfect - but there is much room between perfect and the crap it is!

 

[Driftster]

forza 3 did NOT take 1 year to develop

Forza 3 was released in oct of 09..

Forza 2 was released in june of 07...

it took 2 a bit over 2 years....Vs the 6 of GT...

Considering the animation of 1 and 3 are more similar than that of 2 and 3 (in the forza series) the transition between 2 and 3 is easily to be seen as greater..

However with the transition of GT4-GT5P to GT5 being so...slight in terms of OVERALL package it's amazing that it took 6 years...

and i just personally think it's sad that we can ACTUALLY compare a game that took 2 years, which was the 3rd in a series that was released 1 GT installment ago...against a 6 year game..on the "ps3's superior hardware platform" from a company with a 8-10 Million dollar budget.. etc etc etc..

It's just proof of quality of work over quantity of work..

Which is almost ironic to say that in regards to a microsoft product

 

[MidianGTX]

What about you using your brain before writing. I never wrote that AI in GT5 should be perfect - but there is much room between perfect and the crap it is!

How about using yours before replying? I didn't once accuse you of saying that, I accused you of changing the subject. This is about saying GT5's AI is better than reported, which it is. Then you come in moaning that it's still not good enough. There are rant topic for emo poetry, find one of those.

 

[Tenacious D]

I would be very surprised, since the AI in GT5 does a ton of things that the AI in GT1 did not.

I have to chime in on this. Frankly, the bots in GT5 and Prologue both are very much like people I've raced online. I've actually been rammed more by bots in racing games, fortunately. Waiting a month or so seems to thin the field of brats quite a bit.

While the bots in GT5 and Prologue both are a marked improvement, they do need some work yet.

As Devedander says, they have a tendency to want to get back into their line and will bump you more than once, even if you're clearly in their "field of view."

Some races, their behavior follows a script, or they fall into a pattern as if they were scripted.

The biggest issue is they still slam on their brakes rather than braking smoothly. This is the one thing in their logic that definitely needs to be fixed.

I have noticed that they are more aggressive if I'm driving more cheaply, like if I'm grinding past them because I just want to hurry up and get a race overwith. Sometimes they will bang into me in retaliation, so it seems that like some games, they do have some human-like personality.

 

[Abriael]

It's just proof of quality of work over quantity of work..

Not all the "work" is visible under the sun. In a game like GT5 most of the "work" is actually under the hood.

Personally, having a little bit of experience in the field, I can say I have absolutely no problem recognizing why PD took so long to create GT5.

Even just the physics/handling engine shows more work than I ever seen in a simulator (especially on consoles) that doesn't heavily sacrifice on everything else.
Simulating so well the handling and physical reactions of completely different vehicles (karts and cars for instance) isn't a trivial matter.
Even just the research work must have taken longer than anyone of us can imagine.

 

[diegorborges]

And people that keep defending things that are the biggest crap - like the AI in GT5 are called "Fanboys".
I played GT1, 2 3 and 4 and in non of this games the AI annoyed me as much as the one in GT5 does.

Are you mad?

AI on GT5 its by far the best of the series. I've played all of these too.

 

[RWB1213]

Fact is that I'm not interested in making an actual comparison. With one game having 8 cars on track and the other having 12, with one having broader tracks and other little details, it's basically impossible to make a comparison in 100% equal conditions.

My aim was simply to bust a completely rigged video, and the myth that the GT5 AI follows the line no matter what and will ignore obstacle.

The rest will always be a matter of opinion and preference.

OK, so you busted a rigged video. Congrats. Doesn't change the fact that GT5's AI still feels robotically sub-standard and behind the times. Using the numbers of cars on the track, or "other little details" as a reason not to continue comparing the two is just an apologist rationalization. Sorry man, I thought you were trying to be honest and objective about the AI comparison. It's clear now you're only interested in defending GT5.

 

[RedSuinit]

The biggest flaw I have found in GT5's AI is not this purported inability to detect unlikely obstacles like a car stopped in the road, but it's awareness of you when you are near it especially in turns.

The result is that the AI keeps "testing" if the road near it is clear often to your detriment.

I find often taking a turn and even sometimes on straights, that the AI drives foolishly, repeatedly ramming into me when we are side by side to see if I am there. I could almost write this off as simulating a real person who can't see a blind spot if they didn't do it multiple times on the same stretch of road.

Then you'll love how I show a perfect example of the OPPOSITE of this being true in my newest thread. Chances are high that you are side by side with the AI, but not racing two wide, adjusting your line properly. Most people do this though, they don't race two wide with the AI, but just assume that the AI should make room for you to take your normal line.