Gran Turismo 6 AI discussion

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by JBanton, Aug 6, 2012.

  1. JBanton

    JBanton

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    As we all know there are a number of shortcomings with the GT5 AI, be it opponents or B-Spec drivers. For me it made playing A-spec somewhat disappointing and B-Spec very frustrating :banghead::sick:

    My list of improvements would be;

    1. Making driving styles more dynamic (aggresive, cool or balanced)
    2. Making the AI have better driving sense. (Monte Carlo anyone?)
    3. Making B-Spec drivers learn from A-spec player's technique and driving style.

    I shall update below here with ideas that seem popular.

    • Taking inspiration from Codemasters' F1 for racing AI

    What's your two pence on how AI should be improved?
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2012
  2. hennessey86

    hennessey86

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    The PS3's ram architecture makes it difficult to program realistic A.I, so hopefully GT6 will be on the PS4 .
     
  3. Scuderia Paul

    Scuderia Paul

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    COMPLETE RE-BUILD REQUIRED
    GT6 needs a completely new AI model. The GT5 approach is horribly archaic and kills any perception of being involved in an actual race. GT can learn a lot from Codemasters F1 games or EAs NFS Shift games when it comes to AI competitiveness.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2012
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  4. acidreach

    acidreach

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    Couldnt agree more. Codies have nailed the feeling of close competitive racing against believable AI opponents. F1 games and NFS like you said but also check out GRID by codemasters. Tyre blowouts causing cars to barrel roll right in front of you, believable collisions with consequence. Great game. Polyphony should study Codies products, they can learn alot from that developer.

    Not sure how the PS3s split RAM setup has any bearing on restricting AI.... other games do it just fine. Problem is probably only assigning 2 engineers to program all GT5s AI and allocating them marginal CPU time due to limited render buget since GT5 attempts to render at 60 fps as much as possible.
     
  5. Zuku

    Zuku

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    I could care less how realistic the A.I is especially if they drive the way they do in GT5. All I ask for is competitive driving. Not let's play catch the mouse and when I do you become a p**** and let me pass.

    Although that only happened in seasonal's mostly, but still the way the A.I was programmed in GT5 switch them out with moving roadblocks you won't notice a difference.
     
  6. Scuderia Paul

    Scuderia Paul

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    There are only two AI engineers for GT5? I never knew that and it does explain a great deal. I love GT more than any other racing series I have played and it pains me that it is let down by what is the most fundamental element in a racing game - The perception of being involved in a race.

    Pack racing is one of the most exhilarating experiences you can have and fighting for positions in F1 2011 and NFS Shift 2 is something I desperately want to experience in GT.

    A flag / light system to deal with crashes and lapping would also be a fine addition if fully integrated with dynamic AI as it would help with stopping hitting the AI as they slow down excessively.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2012
  7. JBanton

    JBanton

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    That probably has to be the fundamental improvement that needs to be made; making the AI more competitive.

    I agree totally.
     
  8. Foxiol

    Foxiol

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    I resume this topic in one sentence:

    RACE 07 AI. *period*

    Copy and paste PD...copy and paste. Same flag regulations and stuff as in that game and you have a winner.
     
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  9. Zuku

    Zuku

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    Before we get any more penalty systems or even a flag system(Nascar) the first thing PD must do is make the A.I dynamic and competitive.

    Really I don't think there is a reason out of 8-16 racers it's always a tired old line they drive in especially in 2012 on PS3 of all things.

    It really hurts worse when you always know there is one car that will lag behind everyone else because it's a slow car compared to everyone else. It's also disappoint that between 8-12 is where you got a pack formed in which they race competitively, and then between 2-6 is the second pack difference is their cars are faster is all.
     
  10. Qeki

    Qeki

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    I just want flags like when somebody crashes then yellow flag, blue flag if you get lapped...
     
  11. TuneR-

    TuneR-

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    I agree fully, got the race injection 2 months ago and the ai is very good!
    If they can make something similar, it would be outstanding :tup:
     
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  12. XSquareStickIt

    XSquareStickIt

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    I'm not entirely sure what can be done to fix the horrendous AI of Gran Turismo. All I ask for is that they stop ramming me at seemingly every given opportunity, or try to sandwich me between their car and a wall when I dive into the inside to overtake. I don't care if they have to remove half the wheels of the AI cars to prevent them from crashing into me, just god damn do it. A game with fraudulent AI is not ready for damage whatsoever in my opinion.

    It is also my belief that the abysmal AI is the whole reason why all the races in GT Mode are all "lol start at the back of the pack and the race begins when you cross the lines, because REALISM!!!", instead of the standing start with all the cars bunched up together like the races in GT1 and 2. I've never played 3 or 4, so I don't know if this "lol start from the back and take everybody and hope no one screws you over" race concept started with GT5. But I'm sure such races don't occur in real life, but someone may correct me on that if I'm wrong.

    But what I do know is, because of races like ^that, we're hardly ever matched evenly with our opponents specs wise. You would normally have to out-spec and certainly out-drive the AI to win, which provides for some very awkward photo mode moments like "why is there a Prelude in the same race as a RX-7?". Of course, this whole situation is reversed in arcade mode where things are somewhat more fair, so the AI will have to compensate with having better cars than yours, which provides for even more awkward moments like "why is there a 1991 RX-7 overtaking a 2009 Lotus Evora?".

    Apologies if my rambling was off topic, but I thought I'd chip in my two cents regardless.
     
  13. Gabtremblay

    Gabtremblay

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    Finally someone bringing up NFS shift, seriously i know this game is way too arcarde for the GT series but PD could learn a lot on AI and other aspects while still keeping its simulator a simulator
     
  14. Gabtremblay

    Gabtremblay

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    Very ture GT5 lacks that exciting factor ther games like GRID and DIRT have, which could be greatly improved by better AI for one
     
  15. Without explanation, it's more difficult to simulate human reactions in a game that aims to simulate real-world physics than it is to make an "arcade" racer's AI competitive.
     
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  16. Gabtremblay

    Gabtremblay

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    Then im asking would you rather have a more competitive AI like other games might have or the one GT5 has, i understand what you're saying, in just bringing this up cause the current AI is pretty plain
     
  17. Rich S

    Rich S

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    Yeah.....like when they hit the brakes at special stage X. LOL :sly: Something went wrong somewhere...

    I can remember really old racing games that had good AI, obviously getting it done while giving the AI the same performance car as you is harder.

    It could be that codemasters/NFS people are giving the AI unlimited performance or diff car physics perimeters to get them competitive against you the human. I'm not a computer person though...I'm lay person but thats the general perception I got with F1 2010.
     
  18. The Bman

    The Bman Premium

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    GT6 AI can be a cakewalk to make, it's just that PD needs to spend much more time working on it. And please, NO MORE RABBIT CARS OR TANKS ON RAILS! I'm sick of the only competition being a single car and the fact that the other AI cars are impossible to spin.
    What does that have to do with anything? Everyone assumes that the PS4 will be some system that has the capability of a military supercomputer. I've said it before, I'll say it again - we don't know how powerful the PS4 is. Hell, we don't even know in the slightest of it, other than the fact that it is in development.
     
  19. From the looks of it, he knows more about programming and game development than the both of us, and that's all that needs to be known about this subject.
     
  20. TorqueHappenS08

    TorqueHappenS08

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    Make them actually race, PD had taken notes from forza... so why didnt they take notes from the AI? the AI on GT are basically obstacles, only way for one to pass you is if you go extremely slow, They brake extremely early and crawl around turns,Yet become extremely competitive on the straights,all in all, feels like a track day for novice drivers rather then an actual race.
     
  21. JBanton

    JBanton

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    B-Spec drivers need to get some sense as well, sometimes they're very frustrating to watch, you can give them the most overpowered car and they'll still tuck in behind a queue after you've told them to overtake 6 times :dunce:
     
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  22. photonrider

    photonrider

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    We definitely need more 'alive' AI, not only intuitive but also anthrophomorphic to an extent that differentiates them from rolling tanks manned by zombies from the planet of the Apes.
    The AI of course differs from game to game - but while we can objectively pinpoint characteristics that should be there (e.g. 'act like a 'normal' racing human) our subjective experience of the AI of course is personal. For instance, subjectively, I like the 'racers' in S2. And it goes with the handling that is specific to that game.

    When one car is unnaturally fast in the field, and the rest clump in a Conga line that relentlessly marches forward behind you, through you, ahead of you, then it's programming at its most homologous.

    TL : DR: The AI should interact. For real.

    Names aren't enough.
     
  23. research

    research Premium

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    It amazes me to ponder how they would give us some great options in arcade mode and nothing in the A-spec career and Seasonals. The A.I. Characteristic slider from 1-10 was a great addition, and then you can choose beginner, intermediate, and professional difficulty before an arcade race. Why in the hell couldn't they put those simple options in A-spec, and base your rewards upon your chosen setting?

    The contrast is eye-popping. Go set up a tough race in arcade mode and you can find yourself in an immersive, competitive battle (even though they run terrible race-lines and don't seem to know when to apply the brake and throttle for a fast run). The A.I. are fully capable of diving on you, holding a line side-by-side through a turn, and generally attempting to compete, sort of. Now go to the seasonals or any a-spec race in GT Life and watch them park the car if you get anywhere close to them. Every time. That is atrocious. :guilty:


    I like what previous posters have said about studying other games. I've never played Race 07, but between dirt2, GRID, and F1- it seems that the codemaster boys have their **** together when it comes to A.I. I've heard that the TOCA series also sports some strong A.I. racers.


    The first order of business is to hire more than two guys to work on this CRITICAL aspect of this prestigious, multi-million dollar racing game. Check the credits of gt5. It is literally two guys. Atsushi Hayashi and Yutaka Ito. Seriously? 50+ people modelling the appearance of the cars and two working on the artificial intelligence of our race competition? :ouch:

    Second, make them run real and varied race lines. We can't just have the train of 15 bots running over the exact same curb at the exact same point, every lap (or hitting the wall at monaco every lap, for that matter). It surely doesn't help that they don't feel like passing each other in obvious passing zones- approach a hairpin after a long straight and they will all just stay in line, backing up traffic for 200 yards, often allowing us to blow right past 6 of them in one fell swoop.

    Next we need them to apply the brakes and throttle like a RACE DRIVER. Right now they do it like a frightened old woman. Gas, brake, coast, brake, gas, brake on turn exit (!?). Wtf Kaz. You are a race driver. Is this what you want to practice with? Who green-lighted the frightened old woman A.I. in this game?

    Lastly I would like to see our A.I. brethren make some mistakes. They do it in high-powered cars like the Ferrari F1 or the Red Bull X1, crashing and spinning in arcade races. But this often happens in a repetitive manner, and at the same point on a given track. We need some randomness here. A little parity in the field. The robotic hardness needs to be softened up a little bit, and it has nothing to do with the ps3's capabilities.

    .
     
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  24. Gatorbait771

    Gatorbait771

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    The other day my B-Spec driver was trying to complete the Historic car race at Cote d'azur in my *perfectly* tuned 2J...I managed to beat it just fine so this was obviously the AI driver's fault...He just WOULD NOT pass the 2J in front of him...then he [my driver] would crash at the chicane by the harbor..then he'd catch up again right away but he WOULD NOT pass when I told him to...I could have passed him a million times over. Nothing works:yuck:
     
  25. shurnster

    shurnster

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    I would like to see more A.I cars making mistakes like more swerving and being aggressive on other a.i cars on the track.
     
  26. axl54

    axl54

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    Definitely, Gt6 needs more dynamic and engaging AI. I really can't face another career mode filled with excitement-draining, single race line holding , zombie racers.
    If the AI dosen't finally get the attention it deserves it'll be a dealbreaker for me.
     
  27. Arcade Love ~*~ The Hit List & Game Changer.
    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=251378

    Check that thread out. It could be the alternative for you now.
     
  28. Foxiol

    Foxiol

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    Just because my previous comment was not enough...

    RACE 07 AI and regulations/flags. *period*

    Best system on every racing simulator/game in the entire market. *period again*

    I am not that much in to online racing so i have tons of games/simulators on my PC and PS3 (well not so much sims here but...) and i always wanted to race against great AI´s or have the option to tune it to be as hard as my level or experience at driving.

    You can find hard AI´s as in Shift/2 which the only good thing that has is the AI but at the same time is quite aggressive and it feels surreal (some kind of bad and way too dirt).

    But once you play Race 07, which now is a very cheap game and not so PC demanding, you can go back in that aspect. AI is so good, is so "intelligent" "smart" or whatever that makes you feel that you are racing against real drivers instead of just cars moving in front of you.
    They change lines to cover positions, depending in what percentage you put them they can be way better, equal to you or as easy as you want, they try to pass you in the "right" curves not on every one but if you make a mistake they try too of course, then they act and react to flag regulations instantly and same to you...for example when they get a blue flag you can see when the car changes the line to let you pass and then it keeps following you quickly and stuff...

    The other day i was racing with DTM 2010 cars (it's a mod) and was in practice session before qualifying sessions (yeah we don´t have this in GT...shame) and i was following a slower AI at Macau race track, and suddenly i got a blue flag because one car came on its fast lap and i had to move to the "dirt" section and let it pass...it was so cool and even the slower AI in front of me did the same...oh man i got to tell you it was just perfect, that "little" detail made me smile because it felt so real at the same moment.

    You can set the AI from 20 to 120% and more or less depending in how fast or good you are you can put it at 85% to 90% and they will be as fast as you and a little bit better so you can have a better experience and put more effort and concentration to win the race.

    I always check the lap times with sector times to see how well is the AI so i can set it in a way that it will be hard and at the same time not impossible to gain some positions and stuff. Even they are better than me at some sectors and even better in the more difficult areas...totally different compared to GT5 where if you have more curves the AI is even worst.

    Race 07 AI for GT and regulations is all that we need.
     
  29. axl54

    axl54

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    Tried arcade mode with max aggression lots of times. The leading ai's set faster times, but they all follow the same line, brake at the exact same points..... zzzzzzzzz
    Still zombies, just faster.
     
  30. dethringr

    dethringr

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    Codemaster seems to do a pretty good job with the AI on Grid. Why cant PD?