Gran Turismo 6 AI discussion

[Imari]

I am dead serious.
If you race in pub rooms full of 12 year olds (not sure what “pub room” means) you get what you deserve. I race in my room full of mature racers. And respect plays a very large part of how we race.

Pub room = public room. Not entirely sure how you could race online for three years and miss that. 12 year olds is the usual derogatory term for the idiots that you usually meet in such rooms.

I never said there wasn't good rooms out there. You claimed that AI will never be able to replicate a decent human driver. I'm saying that it duplicates the average mouthbreather that you'll find online right now, has improved for the last ten years and will likely keep improving.

So do you have some actual logic to your reasoning as to why it's impossible for a computer to drive a car to the same level of competence as a good human?

Google's already got cars driving on the road with computers at the helm.



I seem to remember a Top Gear segment with a laptop driving a BMW around the test track at race speed.



If they can already do this stuff in the real world, I figure it's simply a matter of waiting until we have consoles where there's processing power to spare from the fancy graphics and physics models to run such advanced AI.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

My public room is usually at least half filled with friends. On any given night I do end up kicking several people. If one of my (carefully chosen) friends think I need to kick someone, I will. My room stays as clean as I can keep it.

I am not the only host that runs a clean room. You bitchers should look harder before you criticize GT5 online.

I know several hosts that do a great job running online rooms.

I do mine with SRF and racing soft tires allowed. Others run theirs with more restrictions.

Find what you want and there is an online room you will like.

3 years after the game was launched and the online is still booming. WOW what an accomplishment!

This is of course in NO THANKS to the terrible, and irreparable AI.

 

[ShiftingGears]

You bitchers should look harder before you criticize GT5 online.

For many people, time is limited, and when they play a racing game like GT they expect they will be able to immediately be immersed in quality racing. "Looking harder" means spending more time navigating menus to try to find clean rooms, which can be a significant dent in one's leisure time. No-one is denying clean rooms are out there, but are they always going to be instantly accessible whenever a player goes online? No - especially when the player has to compromise with others with what tracks to race at, what cars to race in, how long the races are, and what driving aids to allow.

But don't let nuances like that stop you from having a moan about forum members.

3 years after the game was launched and the online is still booming. WOW what an accomplishment!

This is of course in NO THANKS to the terrible, and irreparable AI.

It is predominantly due to the fact that GT5 has no real competition as far as driving simulators go on the PS3. Online is going to be a significant component of pretty much all games nowadays, but again, this is no excuse to neglect the offline component.

 

[Imari]

You bitchers should look harder before you criticize GT5 online.

Firstly, do you mind keeping it civil?

My public room is usually at least half filled with friends. On any given night I do end up kicking several people. If one of my (carefully chosen) friends think I need to kick someone, I will. My room stays as clean as I can keep it.

I am not the only host that runs a clean room. You bitchers should look harder before you criticize GT5 online.

I know several hosts that do a great job running online rooms.

I do mine with SRF and racing soft tires allowed. Others run theirs with more restrictions.

Find what you want and there is an online room you will like.

3 years after the game was launched and the online is still booming. WOW what an accomplishment!

This is of course in NO THANKS to the terrible, and irreparable AI.

Why this continuing response like this is an attack on online rooms? The discussion is about AI.

Do you or do you not have any rational for believing it to be impossible for a computer to race like at clean, competent human? Either now or at any point in the future?

Also. Online is not a substitute for AI/single player. ShiftingGears and others in this thread have explained why.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I am dead serious.
If you race in pub rooms full of 12 year olds (not sure what “pub room” means) you get what you deserve. I race in my room full of mature racers. And respect plays a very large part of how we race.

If you would only take the effort to find good online hosts (and I'm sure there are many) you will see what I am talking about.

There are lots of good rooms out there.

I booted at least half a dozen people last night just for voting random on track votes. We kept ending up with tracks no one voted for so I posted a fair warning in capitals. Next vote I booted 3 people, one after I booted 2, thereafter it settled down and we had a great room for a couple of hours...now that's a host!!

Even though I avoid offline like the plague, it's probably more important to have good AI to the future of GT, than a good online experience is. The vast majority of people still drive only offline if the number of lobbies is any indication although there is no way for us to measure private lobby attendance. I'd really like to be a fly on the wall and watch some people race offline. In online races it's not unusual for half or more of the grid to finish 20-40 seconds behind the leader in a 4 or 5 lap race. I imagine offline there are drivers who might be even slower than that and maybe the AI is a decent challenge for the silent majority of drivers who have little skill in racing...maybe

 

[avens]

I will be seriously surprised if in twenty years we don't have AI that can be mistaken for clean, competent racers.

By that time all racing games will use data from single and multiplayer to create AI based on how real players 'drive'. Furthermore this started in Mario Kart Wii (online races aren't live - the opponents are recordings) and will evolve in FM5 (data for AI taken from friend lists, as far as we know).

That is the ultimate step: AI that isn't AI but actual humans. I'd say right now in some games single player can be mistaken with online racing, such as the quoted first example (though it strictly isn't single player, being different menus) and in tetrisfriends.com (completely different genre though).

With all that said, if the competition does it well then the industry standard in AI will increase massively, in an area in which GT5 already was years behind. At this rate it won't be long until the series will be considered to be two generations old quality, though we don't know how the AI will be in GT6 itself (though should be finished already, having to meet schedules to have the games available everywhere in about 30 days).

 

[defoncateur3k]

In GT5, I get a kick out of playing Arcade mode even though the AI is very slow and passive. You go slow and stay with the pack, and it's fun. I was expecting AI and A-Spec to be the priorities for GT6, but I was wrong: Kaz wants to reach outside of the video games sphere, so he focuses on time attack physics and his irl relationship with car manufacturers (GT Vision). I don't mind.
But, I was at the Paris Games Week yesterday and I could play Forza 5 for one lap. The AI cars hit me 4 times - twice in a straight line for absolutely no reason. I don't know whether that's the cloud or just next gen AI, but I hadn't been mad at a video game for a while before yesterday.

It seems to me that there's two visions of AI: the American one, overly aggressive because influenced with popular arcade games like Need for Speed; and the Gran Turismo one, so preoccupied with its interpretation of realism that it confuses clean with boring.
It's weird that Toca Race Driver could make interesting AI on the PS2, but newer games can't. It can't be hardware limitation, the X1 should have power margin.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

@ShiftingGears, It is all about the friends you keep. If you have lots of GT5 friends that like to race the way you do then it is easy fire up the game, go into the community tab, and find some of them racing.

About the AI.
In this, the Google age it is possible to program a computer to beat a human at Jeopardy. But to actually teach a computer skill?

Racing is not just about which line is fastest or throttle control coming out of the corner.

When you are following someone, looking for an opportunity to make a pass you take a lot of information into account. Is their car loose or tight? What line do they run? You might even get into their head, making them think you are looking to pass them one way so that they drive to defend against that, but then pass them a different way. There is also patience. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. How do you teach a computer that?

The complexities of the many decisions one makes while driving just can’t be duplicated by a machine. I am not saying that the AI can’t be improved, but will it ever be as good as a human driver? NEVER!!!

 

[Imari]

The complexities of the many decisions one makes while driving just can’t be duplicated by a machine. I am not saying that the AI can’t be improved, but will it ever be as good as a human driver? NEVER!!!

Allow me to suggest that you have a lot to learn about what can and can't be described by algorithms. And apparently, a lot to learn about how the decision making processes of humans work as well. Humans are not some mystical things that spit out illogical but correct answers at random.

Good racing drivers are ones that make logically sound decisions based on the entirety of knowledge of the situation around them. A computer can make a logically sound decision based on the entirety of the information presented to it. Just because you find it difficult to believe that a computer can handle all that information, doesn't mean that it can't be done.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

I will believe it when I see it.

 

[brandofo]

I honestly don't care about the AI because I only drive against other people online. It would be nice to have but at the end of the day I want PD to spend more time polishing the online experience as much as possible.

 

[VBR]

No mention whatsoever about improved AI in the latest info, Hmmm...

 

[mister dog]

No mention whatsoever about improved AI in the latest info, Hmmm...

I fear we will be chasing the rabbit all over again... Rabbit being the only one that doesn't drive as slow as my grandmother.
If next to the hoover sounds the AI still hasn't been improved by the mutes at PD, i think i will start crying.

Really anticipating the first reviews by IGN etcetera, for GT5 i didn't wanna believe them when they only scored it 80 something %, but i won't be making that same mistake twice.

 

[research]

.... Rabbit being the only one that doesn't drive as slow as my grandmother.

That rabbit may be faster than g-ma, but I bet even she has better braking points! Give her an equal car, a grid start, tell her to mind the brake-checking, and that rabbit would be turned to dust in short order..

 

[mister dog]

That rabbit may be faster than g-ma, but I bet even she has better braking points! Give her an equal car, a grid start, tell her to mind the brake-checking, and that rabbit would be turned to dust in short order..

You sure got a point there, my granny keeps in motion through the aphex of a corner when heading for the supermarket. GT's AI just parks there.

Damn i hope they adressed that for GT6 at least

 

[dr_slump]

Not a single comment about the improved AI?

Is everybody in shock?

 

[ironman44321]

A new story was just posted by Jordan in which he talks about the new AI and it's good news! Not perfect, but much better!

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

A new story was just posted by Jordan in which he talks about the new AI and it's good news! Not perfect, but much better!

Not sure how you gathered much better from the story, since he said they seem to fight, but not all of them. Some will still give up the spot and basically slow down for you. He also mentions that they will run into you and hold their line, rather than function like an interactive AI with variables that help change. Yet they are somewhat improved.

I guess the best way to put it is, it's a step forward.

 

[sk8er913]

Not sure how you gathered much better from the story, since he said they seem to fight, but not all of them. Some will still give up the spot and basically slow down for you. He also mentions that they will run into you and hold their line, rather than function like an interactive AI with variables that help change. Yet they are somewhat improved.

I guess the best way to put it is, it's a step forward.

He said you feel like you are racing... which I think is an incredible improvement over what Ive seen in GT5,

 

[ironman44321]

Not sure how you gathered much better from the story, since he said they seem to fight, but not all of them. Some will still give up the spot and basically slow down for you. He also mentions that they will run into you and hold their line, rather than function like an interactive AI with variables that help change. Yet they are somewhat improved.

I guess the best way to put it is, it's a step forward.

Much better doesn't mean great. But having the cars race each other and having some of the cars put up a fight is much better than what he had in GT5.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Much better doesn't mean great. But having the cars race each other and having some of the cars put up a fight is much better than what he had in GT5.

I agree hence what I said it is a step forward. However, when you've been playing GT for as long as some of us you begin to wonder when leaps and bounds will be made.

 

[ironman44321]

I agree hence what I said it is a step forward. However, when you've been playing GT for as long as some of us you begin to wonder when leaps and bounds will be made.

True, but I think it's safe to say this is easily the biggest improvement we've seen in the AI department. Also, I don't know about you but although I was hoping for better AI. I wasn't expecting it.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

True, but I think it's safe to say this is easily the biggest improvement we've seen in the AI department. Also, I don't know about you but although I was hoping for better AI. I wasn't expecting it.

Actually I was expecting it because PD said they would do something, and after all the patches from GT5 I believed they would, but I also didn't hype it or am going to start now. I believe they did a somewhat or minimal upgrade and will build on that. In other words I believed it would be around this level, now if it did a complete change I'd been surprised for sure and taken back some of the things I've said, but I'm still waiting.

 

[sk8er913]

True, but I think it's safe to say this is easily the biggest improvement we've seen in the AI department. Also, I don't know about you but although I was hoping for better AI. I wasn't expecting it.

The pics Jordan posted of them side by side was a good sight, I remember on GT5 seeing cars a class faster than the car in front of it, and it took 50 seconds to try to pass, then it would hit it, and try again in about 4-5 corners. lol

 

[ironman44321]

The pics Jordan posted of them side by side was a good sight, I remember on GT5 seeing cars a class faster than the car in front of it, and it took 50 seconds to try to pass, then it would hit it, and try again in about 4-5 corners. lol

Yeah that's one thing I really hope they fixed. I hate seeing a 512BB fighting a 430 Scuderia for a spot, it makes no sense haha.

 

[ironman44321]

Actually I was expecting it because PD said they would do something, and after all the patches from GT5 I believed they would, but I also didn't hype it or am going to start now. I believe they did a somewhat or minimal upgrade and will build on that. In other words I believed it would be around this level, now if it did a complete change I'd been surprised for sure and taken back some of the things I've said, but I'm still waiting.

Really? Oh, haha. Maybe that's why I see it as a bigger deal! I'd love to see them improve it further through updates though, would do wonders for keeping the game fresh.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Really? Oh, haha. Maybe that's why I see it as a bigger deal! I'd love to see them improve it further through updates though, would do wonders for keeping the game fresh.

I'm sure they will.

 

[ironman44321]

I'm sure they will.

MMMMMMMMMM...

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

MMMMMMMMMM...

As many patches as they put in GT5, I'm sure one of them for GT6 will be AI related. Either to improve or fix a screw up

 

[SteveEnforcer]

id like to see a difficulty option where you got the power to change the difficulty from ezy to hard and also add a cr bonus as well thatll make the A.I faster and more competitive espically in those endurance races after 20 laps of those races that your pretty much racing by yourself and it gets boring