Gran Turismo 7 Confirmed to also launch on PlayStation 4, is a cross-gen title

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Are you disappointed GT7 is also on PS4 with gameplay & graphic assets held back by PS4 limitations?


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3,879
Canada
Brandon, MB
Silver-Arrows21
It's not so much the tagline, as that Polyphony/Kaz are still under the impression that their game is a highly realistic simulator.

Remember the infamous quote around the sound of GT5: "My perspective is that the sounds are just too real."


That was a problem, because as long as the belief was that the sounds were excellent there was no reason to think that Polyphony would put any effort or resources into changing them in a meaningful way. And in GT6 almost nothing changed with regards to the sounds, bar that they tried to make an engine simulation system for a few cars that was even worse. That mindset clearly changed because they hired an actual professional to manage the sounds for GTS and they're much improved, to the point that the "vacuum cleaner" joke is largely a thing of the past. That's great for everyone, even the people who thought that there was nothing wrong with the sounds before but can enjoy how much better the game sounds now.

There are real issues with the physics of Gran Turismo. Even accepting that Polyphony will sacrifice ultimate realism for playability because that's what their core demographic want, that doesn't necessitate the weird damping physics, the neutered behaviour of FWD cars, the general unresponsiveness to track geometry, and probably any number of other things that people more knowledgable that I could go into. Arguably the game becomes better with these things, because while a proper implementation doesn't really raise the skill floor they absolutely raise the skill ceiling.

Something like Assetto Corsa isn't really any harder to drive for a novice than Gran Turismo (bar the fact that Gran Turismo has far better pad optimisation, but that's not a physics thing), but there is a lot more room to develop your skills as a driver. That's why you get the "hardcore" crowd pushing back against the idea that the physics need to be the way they are for the casual crowd - it's just not true. This is one situation where you can have your cake and eat it too.

The tagline itself isn't a problem, but it is a symbolic representation of the problematic mindset. While the physics in GT has improved somewhat over the years, the idea that it's a realistic simulation is damaging in the same way that the idea that the sounds were too real was damaging. It removes any impetus to keep pushing for something better.

Kaz has espoused in interviews in the past that he thinks that good physics should be easy to drive, and he's not wrong. The whole "harder to drive is better" thing is a holdover from the early days of hardcore sims where that kinda-sorta was true, because it was arcade games versus sims. But modern sims like AC or rF2 or even iRacing are not hard to drive. They're hard to drive fast, but that's true in real life too. That's why racing drivers are professionals who train and dedicate thousands of hours to becoming proficient at their craft. Anyone can go to an open day on a track with their own car and expect to very quickly be able to go around it at speed without plowing into a wall, you'll just be multiple seconds a lap slower than a professional would be.

I'd like to see GT become as realistic as it can be without alienating players, because that's a big part of what it presents itself as. I think that's a lot more realistic than it is right now, and is a far bigger step than we've seen between any two GT games with the possible exception of GT2 to GT3.
Thank you for putting it in better words then I could. It's less the actual tag line itself but more of what it represents - and what it represents is a series that more often then not rests on its laurels because of the opportunities afforded to them and rarely changes, even as the industry has passed them by in most of the areas that GT was considered strong in in the past.

Is it really that Kaz believes this, or simply just is in his own bubble when it came to designing the game and because his friend Hirai was over there at Sony, his team could take all the sweet time he wanted and not care about the competition and therefore is in a state of complacency for a long while? I tend to honestly believe that is more what is at hand and kinda what I always believed around the time of GT6. He's essentially been handed a get out of jail free card because even if the games haven't had nearly the sales of earlier games, they've never sold "Poorly" either to really warrant any big and massive changes (Which kinda makes GT Sport all the more an interesting product as it didn't have to exist at all given what I presented regarding sales).
This is also 100% the case. And, if I may go into conspiracy theory territory, is probably why Evolution was shuddered, even after the multitude of problems the studio had faced since coming out with Motorstorm and had plowed through with confidence (which 90% of the time wasn't even really Evolution's fault) simply because Kaz does not want competition from within, which Evolution absolutely was. And he has the pull in order to get what he wants.

Is it the millions of people who buy a GT title and then abandon it after a very short time, or the significantly smaller number who play it over the long term? After all, only 5.5% of players have played in the last week and 84% have never played Sport mode.
This is ultimately the thing that gets me. It's pretty clear that most major developers, and publishers really, care much more about retention of players and how many are actually playing then sales, because they provide a much more accurate display of the numbers then sales do, which simply shows how a game is selling. Nothing more, and nothing less. Considering the fact that while GT Sport sold well enough, that publicly revealed numbers (however accurate they might be) show that only a small group of people actually play the game day over day and week over week, and like you said, a very large portion really only bought the game, realized that there was no single player to speak of other then piss easy challenges and one off races (since I also guarantee that the vast majority of that 84% came before Polyphony started piecemealing a single player campaign over free updates) and then deleted the game? Not hard to see why, especially when anecdotal evidence also shows that GT Sport cratered hard in terms of price point not long after release.

So like, what is the victory here for Sony or PD? Sure, your games are selling 'well' in the relative term, but that isn't the main goal anymore, and most developers and publishers have realized that. You really can't sell games simply on the virtue of being graphical showcases, especially when most people who are deep into video games can go on Youtube after GT7 is released and watch a Digital Foundry video that more or less outlines, in layman's terms, that GT7 is at best a marginal improvement over GT Sport, even on PS5. Which once again goes back to the entire crux of this argument - that creating a game for both PS5 and PS4 is a very clear mistake, and that any benefits that come with that are undone the second you put logical thinking about Polyphony's recent history in regards to game creating, and realize that by the time GT7 releases, the shortages and scalping of next gen consoles will have made the decision to build alongside the PS4 moot, and simply adds dead weight to a game that absolutely should have been a next gen only experience.
 
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3,879
Canada
Brandon, MB
Silver-Arrows21
Some of GT5 and GT6 was, but unfortunately not the majority.
Double post, but I dare anyone to call GT5 a 'graphical showcase' when there was, in effect, only 100+ vehicles, with the rest of them being various shades of PS2 models uprezzed into HD, alongside an unsolid framerate. At least GT6 was a bit more bearable in that regard, but it still is a stretch, in my opinion.
 

RACECAR

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To be fair though even if this wasn't Cross-gen, there's the unavoidable element of intent. GT Sport, a game solely for PS4, doesn't have Day-to-night Transitions or progressive weather likely because it was an intentional decision relative to the overall goal of the game. Would PD have intended to attempt it again if GT7 was a PS5 only title? While I understand people's arguments about the hardware holding back potential, its worth remembering the intent can also be the limiting factor. (Looking at you, Monster Games)
 
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13,690
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lImaRobotl
To be fair though even if this wasn't Cross-gen, there's the unavoidable element of intent. GT Sport, a game solely for PS4, doesn't have Day-to-night Transitional or progressive weather likely because it was an intentional decision relative to the overall goal of the game. Would PD have intended to attempt it again if GT7 was a PS5 only title?
Well considering it was removed because the hardware wasn't powerful enough to have it and keep a locked 60FPS, I would imagine they would have attempted it with the next gen hardware.
 
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3,879
Canada
Brandon, MB
Silver-Arrows21
Would PD have intended to attempt it again if GT7 was a PS5 only title? While I understand people's arguments about the hardware holding back potential, its worth remembering the intent can also be the limiting factor.
Absolutely, and they probably could have gotten away with it considering that the internals of the Xbox Series consoles and the PS5 aren't warmed over CPU's that were garbage when they were first announced.
 
489
Argentina
Buenos Aires
lgfd070
Nowyx
I wasn't expecting Gran Turismo at all. It took me by surprise, and GOOD LORD THEY RECREATED THE INTRO OF THE FIRST FOUR GAMES, THERE'S THE CASTROL SUPRA, PENNZOIL SKYLINE, HIGH SPEED RING, AAAAAAAA i'm gonna be out good bye everyone

ALSO IT LOOKS LIKE WE'VE GOT TIME OF DAY

Sorry for caps, I'm really excited that we finally got more GT news, and it looks like they changed a lot of things.
1631220962301.png
 
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514
Canada
montreal,quebec,canada
What I would like to know is how pd will pull it off one ps4, After watching today’s game trailer I don’t see how a base ps4 can run this game at 60fps
 

RACECAR

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Somehow didn't notice this (Granted, the cars took most of my atention) but this is...interesting:

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Not exactly news to those that have noticed it but considering this is a Cross-gen title, this might be by far the biggest question in terms of features. This can mean one of two things:

- PD somehow making Time and Weather Transitions work on both with the PS5 handling it just fine while the PS4 being the less then optimized version runs at 30 FPS just so it doesn't implode.

- This is a feature that is exclusive to the PS5 version while the PS4 version is saddled with simply a selection of different weather per time.


Not sure how things will go, but this feels like big deal considering all this talk about the hardware involved.
 
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1,460
PletdeKoe
I think the difference between ps4 and ps5 will be like project cars 2. Man that looked and ran ugly on the ps4, while on pc it looked stunning.
 

MisterWaffles

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I think the difference between ps4 and ps5 will be like project cars 2. Man that looked and ran ugly on the ps4, while on pc it looked stunning.
It looks ugly on PS5 as well for me. Might just be me but when I play PC2 on the PS5 the lighting is bugged pretty bad.
 
258
The point that @FordGTGuy made still stands. A newer, faster processor has a lot to do with physics calculations and how many and how fast they can be processed.

And this could very much limit the PS5 version, as it's highly expected GT7 will be cross play between the two console generations. This would mean the most likely outcome is that PS5 version is nothing more than the PS4 version with better graphics.

It could still be a good game, but it's still a shame they're limiting themselves with such old hardware.
True, but I don't think it will be a factor in what some people seem to want from a revised physics model - which is either modifying things more towards sim, eg the collision physics, where it wouldn't require more calculations, or adding more sim elements, which other games have shown the PS4 is capable of modelling.
The point is still very much relevant. And do you have a source for that?

I doubt the tyre model hasn't been improved substantially since the first Forza title and I also doubt Forza 7's tyre model would run on the original X-Box. But if you have info to the contrary I will happily tip my virtual hat to you.
Yeah from the GTP article - "Up to now, every Forza Motorsport game had treated the tire/track interface as a single point of contact for each tire, with the physics calculations updated 60 times a second."
 

Dave A

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True, but I don't think it will be a factor in what some people seem to want from a revised physics model - which is either modifying things more towards sim, eg the collision physics, where it wouldn't require more calculations, or adding more sim elements, which other games have shown the PS4 is capable of modelling.

Yeah from the GTP article - "Up to now, every Forza Motorsport game had treated the tire/track interface as a single point of contact for each tire, with the physics calculations updated 60 times a second."
Of course collision physics rely on calcualtions, that's how the game knows a collision is occurring. Every way the car reacts is based on calcualtions, the more calcualtions you have and the more frequently they are refreshed the more you can simulate accurately.

I won't argue that we were guarenteed a better game had GT7 always been and remained PS5 exclusive, but the fact is we know it could be better if it's PS5 exclusive and there are several reasons for that. Of course, we don't (and never will) know what if any of those things would have been better in practice, but the question mark hangs over it because they decided to go cross-gen.

That said, there were some positive surprises in the GT7 trailer I didn't expect due to it's being cross-gen.

But it's not about the PS4 clearly being capable of simulating this in that game, so it could do it in this game because everything is a balancing act and if you improve one thing, you may need to simplify something else. GT Sport favoured a stable 60fps frame rate and 4k resolution, you could have added dynamic time of day but you'd lose that stale 60fps and/or native 4k resolution. You have to make tradeoffs with a lot of things when you're running a console hard like GT Sport does the PS4.

That quote doesn't conclude the tyre physics weren't improved. You can connect a single point of contact with a vast array of calculations predicting and reacting to any number of conditions. I have programmed a car physics sandbox (not a sim, a top down sprite based project) just to see if I could do it, and it's bloody complicated.

I managed to create somethnig I'm proud of becuase it was all self-taught, but it wouldn't stand up to anything commerical. Just to calculate a sprite cars grip (using a single point of contact for each tyre) there were a lot of different calcualtions, then once you had the grip you had to calcualte how much the car would slide, the innertia, the weight transfer, tyre wear, it got huge pretty quickly. And that's my very, very, basic top down sprite based experiment, not a AAA 3d racing game. But I guarentee what I did (even sprite based and simple) wouldn't have worked on the PC I had in the mid-90's.

It's pretty much a guarentee Forza 7 will have many time more calculations per cycle connected to each of those single contact patches than the first Forza.
 
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93
Brazil
Manaus
Lyam_GamerBR
I wonder if PD has disposed the idea of having 120 FPS on the game? It also worries me that the gameplay from the 2021 trailer only shows 8-10 cars racing, while the 2020 trailer shows 16 cars racing. Oh well, I think only time will tell...
 
1,405
New Zealand
New Zealand
MHFanatik
The problem with these crossgen games coming out so late - 2022, is that given modern 4-5 year development cycles, it won't be until 2026 - 2027 when we will see games from Polyphony, Santa Monica and Guerilla Games that take full advantage of PS5 hardware, and by that point PS6 will be announced and released, so we're back to square one with games running on dated hardware.
 

TonyJZX

(Banned)
3,945
Australia
Australia
This will happen until Sony feel like they dont need to extract dollars from PS4 owners. et.al Microsoft and Xbox One.
 
258
Of course collision physics rely on calcualtions, that's how the game knows a collision is occurring. Every way the car reacts is based on calcualtions, the more calcualtions you have and the more frequently they are refreshed the more you can simulate accurately.

I won't argue that we were guarenteed a better game had GT7 always been and remained PS5 exclusive, but the fact is we know it could be better if it's PS5 exclusive and there are several reasons for that. Of course, we don't (and never will) know what if any of those things would have been better in practice, but the question mark hangs over it because they decided to go cross-gen.
Yes, but the accuracy relates to the particular model being used, frequency of calculations especially only reduce the errors of the result to the model, not to simulation accuracy. I suspect that the people who want the collision physics modified wouldn't be that happy with the current model/parameters being used being upgraded with further calculations and/or increased rate.
That said, there were some positive surprises in the GT7 trailer I didn't expect due to it's being cross-gen.

But it's not about the PS4 clearly being capable of simulating this in that game, so it could do it in this game because everything is a balancing act and if you improve one thing, you may need to simplify something else. GT Sport favoured a stable 60fps frame rate and 4k resolution, you could have added dynamic time of day but you'd lose that stale 60fps and/or native 4k resolution. You have to make tradeoffs with a lot of things when you're running a console hard like GT Sport does the PS4.

That quote doesn't conclude the tyre physics weren't improved. You can connect a single point of contact with a vast array of calculations predicting and reacting to any number of conditions. I have programmed a car physics sandbox (not a sim, a top down sprite based project) just to see if I could do it, and it's bloody complicated.

I managed to create somethnig I'm proud of becuase it was all self-taught, but it wouldn't stand up to anything commerical. Just to calculate a sprite cars grip (using a single point of contact for each tyre) there were a lot of different calcualtions, then once you had the grip you had to calcualte how much the car would slide, the innertia, the weight transfer, tyre wear, it got huge pretty quickly. And that's my very, very, basic top down sprite based experiment, not a AAA 3d racing game. But I guarentee what I did (even sprite based and simple) wouldn't have worked on the PC I had in the mid-90's.
A game like Grand Prix Legends which came out in 1998 (I think) shows that a pretty good simulation can be made on a processor several orders of magnitude less powerful than the one in the PS4. It does make it seem likely that there's not a significant amount of improvement that can be had from further increases in processing power from now. But, like you, I'm not going to argue that there definitely wouldn't have been lol.
It's pretty much a guarentee Forza 7 will have many time more calculations per cycle connected to each of those single contact patches than the first Forza.
You're right, I meant just the tire contact model.
 
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