Gran Turismo 7 Custom Race thread

[Voodoovaj]

The AI still cheats and manipulates to accomplish these feats, this is because if they perform at the same rules as the player they wouldn't stand a chance.

This is not an absolute truth.

"...if they perform at the same rules as the player they wouldn't stand a chance." Which player? The player that, at their best, can barely break out of DR C in Sport Mode? The player that that scores bronze in the lap time challenges? Or are we talking about high DR A+ to DR S drivers?

This is my point. "The player" is not a static point of reference. We keep talking about "AI cheating" as if it is an absolute, and all players are claiming that the AI is cheating them but, in reality, most players are super slow.

In this week's Race A, Dr B drivers are 3 seconds per lap slower that I am. 3 seconds is an enormous amount of time. I believe the AI is more than capable of beating those players with no cheats what-so-ever. So, the question is, what is the actual maximum pace of the AI?

This all leads to what I think we ALL want to see, and that is an end to the cars exceeding their performance capacity. I believe, this can be achieved by simply giving the AI some cars that, even when they are slow, can still be a challenge to beat. Replicate faster drivers. Add 5, 10, even 15pp to replicate better drivers.

The opposition doesn't need to boost, if you can't get miles ahead.

One thing to add more out curiosity is the GT Custom Race AI rubberbanding doesn't happen in Dirt or Snow races. When I do races there, they never beat my lap times and just get left in the dust with their sub optimal laps as if no manipulation is occuring at all which is interesting.

Yes, because it likely cannot due to the surface. More power on dirt and snow won't necessarily make you faster. The added momentum will also make cornering more difficult, even with more grip. So, there are limits to this cheating.

 

[pritchyTim]

This is not an absolute truth.

"...if they perform at the same rules as the player they wouldn't stand a chance." Which player? The player that, at their best, can barely break out of DR C in Sport Mode? The player that that scores bronze in the lap time challenges? Or are we talking about high DR A+ to DR S drivers?

This is my point. "The player" is not a static point of reference. We keep talking about "AI cheating" as if it is an absolute, and all players are claiming that the AI is cheating them but, in reality, most players are super slow.

In this week's Race A, Dr B drivers are 3 seconds per lap slower that I am. 3 seconds is an enormous amount of time. I believe the AI is more than capable of beating those players with no cheats what-so-ever. So, the question is, what is the actual maximum pace of the AI?

This all leads to what I think we ALL want to see, and that is an end to the cars exceeding their performance capacity. I believe, this can be achieved by simply giving the AI some cars that, even when they are slow, can still be a challenge to beat. Replicate faster drivers. Add 5, 10, even 15pp to replicate better drivers.

The opposition doesn't need to boost, if you can't get miles ahead.

Yes, because it likely cannot due to the surface. More power on dirt and snow won't necessarily make you faster. The added momentum will also make cornering more difficult, even with more grip. So, there are limits to this cheating.

Oh, come on. What a bad-faith take, to kick things off (consistent with your typical assertion of fallacies as fact). Makes it hard to consider the rest of these multi-point posts. You KNOW what is being alluded to, and it’s not the super slow player, and of course a slow enough player would lose to even “Easy Reggy” - shoot, MY first Custom Races seemed impossible! And now look at us, coming up with ways to make the AI harder to beat.

“What is the actual maximum pace of the AI?” is not deep or complicated. We who can make it to the front of our grids have seen it. I’d define it as “the fastest lap time possible under non-catch-up-boost (rabbited) conditions using the AI’s line limits.”

It’s this last part you seem to be ignoring through the discussion, where the fast human driver uses the car and track width within “physics” (video-game-simulated) rules, and the AI keeping up with them uses its own narrower understanding of track width, with no/fewer physics restrictions.

The “cheating” in my book is synonymous with what I keep referring to as ‘catch-up’ or ‘bummer’ rubberband.

 

[suomi1]

Once again, a very long discussion debating things we have known for four years. Tiring..

 

[05XR8]

Once again, a very long discussion debating things we have known for four years. Tiring..

That’s why I just post my fun.

 

[suomi1]

I’ll wait until December to see if I can have some fun again.

 

[alanoh]

Try chasing a “custom rabbit” if you haven’t, yet. Ironically, makes for the best racing! But you have to get over that 2nd place = a win. Won’t matter when you’re stuck in tenth! “Weak boost + this pacecar rabbit” lands in a really nice spot with ‘keep em competitive’ rubberbanding but nothing as egregious as the ‘bummer rubberband’ forcing impossible purple laps, etc.

honestly multiclass might even work better, because you can run in a lower class, and it still kind of feels like a win when you beat the cars in your class (only downside is the lower payout)

 

[jesse100190]

won by a comfy 7 seconds at fuji tonight using a 580pp car for 110k credits for 10 laps.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Oh, come on. What a bad-faith take...

...The “cheating” in my book is synonymous with what I keep referring to as ‘catch-up’ or ‘bummer’ rubberband.

All I'm saying is that building the grid to emulate a sport mode race is the better route, and more in keeping with the intention of the design. Make the 1st 1/4 of the grid cars where the AI will be on par with your ability, whatever that ability may be, because the AI will adjust to the player.

If you manage to get to 1st place, congratulations, time to turn up the competition.

This is what the underlying system is designed for. The chili-peppers in single player don't increase the AI ability, they increase the PP of the opposition. That's what the difficulty in custom race does as well. So it seems to me, people are working against the system with undesirable results.

 

[LeMansLambo14]

All I'm saying is that building the grid to emulate a sport mode race is the better route, and more in keeping with the intention of the design. Make the 1st 1/4 of the grid cars where the AI will be on par with your ability, whatever that ability may be, because the AI will adjust to the player.

If you manage to get to 1st place, congratulations, time to turn up the competition.

This is what the underlying system is designed for. The chili-peppers in single player don't increase the AI ability, they increase the PP of the opposition. That's what the difficulty in custom race does as well. So it seems to me, people are working against the system with undesirable results.

True, but it's still annoying to have to race cars that are technically faster than yours in performance in order to have a competitive race with the AI.

Imagine a one-make series; all the AI would have to have (slightly) tuned cars otherwise you would smash them and it would be the same as the chase-the-rabbit gameplay. While you can disguise this with a classed race (e.g. Gr.3) you're still having to make the AI's cars faster, when the AI needs to be faster. From a competitive point of view, can you see what I'm getting at here?

 

[pritchyTim]

All I'm saying is that building the grid to emulate a sport mode race is the better route, and more in keeping with the intention of the design. Make the 1st 1/4 of the grid cars where the AI will be on par with your ability, whatever that ability may be, because the AI will adjust to the player.

If you manage to get to 1st place, congratulations, time to turn up the competition.

This is what the underlying system is designed for. The chili-peppers in single player don't increase the AI ability, they increase the PP of the opposition. That's what the difficulty in custom race does as well. So it seems to me, people are working against the system with undesirable results.

I’m not so sure that is “all you were saying,” nor am I that the difficulty option changes the PP of the opposition. How can you be so certain, in singleplayer? In Custom Race, it seems to have an impact on braking points, but not power/topspeed…

 

[05XR8]

Yeah I've shown top speed is a weird thing with Reggie in my JTCC races. It'll pull away without the 100% throttle.

 

[jesse100190]

a bunch of AI finished the 30 min lemans race in the pits tonight it was just me and 2nd place did 7 laps just beat the rain on the final lap.

 

[Com Fox]

Pacific GT Championship Round 4 at Autopolis

The lead Nissan got chased by a pack of Hondas but a slight error on his part lead to an overtake near the end for the win

Championship Standings:
Drivers Championship:
Com. Fox - 54
K. Ritter - 45
K. Yamas - 39
P. Wilde - 39
Y. Tsutsumi - 30
T. Iguchi - 25
J. Allen - 22
Y. Sekiguchi - 20
C. Mostert - 16
A. Heimgartner - 15
H. Yamauchi - 9
L. Chan-Joon - 6
C. van der Drift - 5
L. Kitchen - 4
M. Kai 3
Z. Best - 2
T. Yamano - 2

Teams Championship:
Fox Racing HRC - 93
Lexus TS Team - 59
Dingo Autosports* - 45
R&D Sport - 34
Team Tokai* - 30
Fox Racing - 27
Walkinshaw* - 16
Super Black Racing* - 15
Hyundai Panasonic Racing - 6
Pro Circuit* - 4
Wise Square - 3
Cusco Racing* - 2
BRT* - 2
* means single driver team

Manufacturers Championship:
Honda - 55
Nissan - 45
Lexus - 42
McLaren - 36
Subaru - 36
Hyundai - 29
Mazda - 25

Round 5 will be in Suzuka

 

[Voodoovaj]

True, but it's still annoying to have to race cars that are technically faster than yours in performance in order to have a competitive race with the AI.

Here's an example with the hypercars. Ten 2 car teams: A "factory" team and a satellite team. The satellite cars are stock (like my AF Corse in the photo). The "factory" cars get the medium turbo upgrade, and the the power gets turn down to the same level as the stock cars, so 670 stock and 669 for the factory cars. The PP bump is slight, but it gives those other cars midrange advantages.

At Tokyo, I was 13th and I ended up dead last, but all because of my own mistakes. I was only 0.5 sec off the fastest lap, but the fastest lap came through drafting and I lost the pack.

Then off to Interlagos. I started 18th and finished 3rd on track, but I picked up a 5 second penalty when one of the Toyotas cut across my nose around mid race. Note that the "rabbit" car also finished in 9th position. I finished ahead of the boosted Toyotas and the boosted BMWs.

My fastest lap was 0.01 seconds slower than the overall fastest. Remember, I had no slack to shed my penalty. It was 30 solid minutes of pushing to the max. I was faster than one of the boosted 499p, so in theory, I should have been able to win if things went my way. I didn't get past Di Resta and Cassidy until the dying minutes of the race with all of us on nearly finished tires.

This is all I am trying to point out. It doesn't take much to work with the system rather than against it. Give the rabbit and the lead group the tools to be on par, or slightly better than you, you get the best experience. You get the benefit of using an overpowered rabbit, because it's rare that you end up very far in the lead. You get good racing up and down the grid because the mid-pack tries to stay in touch with the lead pack, and you get the chance to win and get the max credits, instead of pretending that 2nd is 1st. There's also the tension of knowing that you could be mid-pack, or even dead last if you screw up.

The game is already providing cars at varied levels of performance, so this approach is less work than trying to overly balance the racing and provides (generally) better results.

 

[05XR8]

Hoping we get an Accord and Primera. I need to have my JTCC grid complete before the end of this decade.

 

[LeMansLambo14]

Here's an example with the hypercars. Ten 2 car teams: A "factory" team and a satellite team. The satellite cars are stock (like my AF Corse in the photo). The "factory" cars get the medium turbo upgrade, and the the power gets turn down to the same level as the stock cars, so 670 stock and 669 for the factory cars. The PP bump is slight, but it gives those other cars midrange advantages.

At Tokyo, I was 13th and I ended up dead last, but all because of my own mistakes. I was only 0.5 sec off the fastest lap, but the fastest lap came through drafting and I lost the pack.
View attachment 1578484

Then off to Interlagos. I started 18th and finished 3rd on track, but I picked up a 5 second penalty when one of the Toyotas cut across my nose around mid race. Note that the "rabbit" car also finished in 9th position. I finished ahead of the boosted Toyotas and the boosted BMWs.

My fastest lap was 0.01 seconds slower than the overall fastest. Remember, I had no slack to shed my penalty. It was 30 solid minutes of pushing to the max. I was faster than one of the boosted 499p, so in theory, I should have been able to win if things went my way. I didn't get past Di Resta and Cassidy until the dying minutes of the race with all of us on nearly finished tires.

View attachment 1578485

This is all I am trying to point out. It doesn't take much to work with the system rather than against it. Give the rabbit and the lead group the tools to be on par, or slightly better than you, you get the best experience. You get the benefit of using an overpowered rabbit, because it's rare that you end up very far in the lead. You get good racing up and down the grid because the mid-pack tries to stay in touch with the lead pack, and you get the chance to win and get the max credits, instead of pretending that 2nd is 1st. There's also the tension of knowing that you could be mid-pack, or even dead last if you screw up.

The game is already providing cars at varied levels of performance, so this approach is less work than trying to overly balance the racing and provides (generally) better results.

This is fair enough, but you've missed my point for the third time, so please hear me out:

True, but it's still annoying to have to race cars that are technically faster than yours in performance in order to have a competitive race with the AI.

You've had to give the AI a power boost to make it competitive. This is what I'm complaining about. I'd rather have AI that I can race with the exact same car and performance, that's all. If all the Hypercars where stock, than you would not have much of a race, and this is a problem for me as I would rather not have to give the AI a (technically) better car just so we're even.

GT7's custom races are awesome, don't get me wrong, but even Sophy needs an upgrade before it can truly match the faster players. I'm not saying it's not fun to have a race with optimized cars like you are, it's just not ideal for a "fair game." I think we'll leave it at that mate ✌️