Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[FA_Hayes]

Going from the tuning races to the bop races the last couple of weeks seems clear they’ve pushed out unfriendly default setups to encourage tuning. The R8 gr3 is horrible stock but was very controllable with tuning. Back to BOP and there’s literally only a couple of cars you can drive with confidence

I believe all of the test races are a way to hammer out BOP. If you look at the setups off all GR3 cars they are almost identical except minor changes in dif settings. RCZ has been meta in the last two dailies and I'm sure it will get nerfed. My trusty Supra is no longer competitive and handles like a dump truck.

McLaren is pretty stable too. It seems with what I've driven so far MR cars seem to be on top for now. Even the Huracan isn't too bad compared to sport.

Which reminds me.. I kind of want to load up sport and compare BOP setups to GT7.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I haven't touched LSD yet (no clue what it is, except for the drug...) but either older cars behave better or I'm simply getting used to the physics. I assume it's the latter.

The biggest change I have made from GTS to GT7 is throttle control. In GTS I used the throttle mostly in an on/off fashion, sometimes 50% in corners to maintain a constant speed. Yet always full throttle out of corners with TCS 2. That does not work in GT7. I still use TCS 2, but seldom go full throttle anymore. Only on straights in a straight line does it feel safe to floor it. Which is probably the way it should be.

I guess I'm also getting more used to the differences in sound and other tells. It's getting easier to find the limits and to recover from the rear breaking out. It still feels rather odd how easy it is, or rather how much easier it is to lose it in 4th compared to accelerating in 2nd gear, but with repetition muscle memory adapts and now I know to go easy on the throttle in 4th and 5th through high speed corners.

The big difference with GT Sport, I feel the specifics of each individual car a lot more. Cars have a lot more character. I drove the GTO last night, tonight the Miura P400 Berone. Both lovely to drive around N24, both with their own quirks and places to pay special attention.

I'm enjoying taking a new car out each night, 3h run on N24 with dynamic weather is perfect to get to know the car. The only downside left in GT7 is having to grind in between, since the payout for those 3h runs only cover the cost of tires and a few upgrades at most. And thus no time for online racing!

 

[05XR8]

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[xMAXIx79]

Yesterday I spent a total of another 4 hours just tuning a car to the KPGC10, or finding a setup that only partially works.
To explain the basic setup, there were already around 4-6 hours of "work" almost unsuccessfully to get this car to stop breaking completely uncontrolled on the rear axle. Don't get me wrong, if I'm not driving the test track, I notice very quickly where he's doing it and could react to it in advance and eg. decrease the speed. But after all the changes and all the "racing" tuning parts AND after all the logical adjustments, this car shouldn't behave the way it does.

I have really meticulously tested everything and checked it individually as well as with common combinations. The result is ALWAYS the same which is totally illogical in this way. Even if I compare the possible G forces at the speeds to the level of a Gr4. bring the car and drive with maximum downforce, the car breaks out with the smallest steering input. The border area is so small and so weak that you know that it is about to happen, but when this information arrives at the steering wheel and can be perceived, the rear is already moving sideways, intercepting is then no longer possible, since there is no There is no more grip, so it is no longer a drift, but an absolute loss of adhesion.

None of the fundamentally working settings on the chassis can prevent this behavior.

Attention.. I like or love GT7, but some things need/should be changed at least a little bit to enable a nice driving experience with all cars.

It makes sense to me that a KPGC10 or the 3.0 CSL with all standard components might not be the yellow of the egg when it comes to handling, but the car must work much better with the latest tuning components.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

The R8 GR3 is in the same boat, loosing traction at 150+, being incredibly unstable in corner entry, and even worse back on throttle. Not realistic in any way. All because of the model.

That's a good example. I can't drive it with low FFB torque. But with very high torque, when braking into a corner, the wheel snaps back to middle forcing you to brake in a straight line and makes it very hard to turn until you've begun letting go of the brake. When you start releasing the brakes, the centering force in the wheel is lowered and it lets you turn the wheel gradually as you continue releasing the brakes. When you get back on the throttle, out of corners, the wheel starts forcing your wheel to the center again. Good FFB feels like cheating in comparison with poor FFB.
With low FFB torque, this isn't really felt, or at least not as clearly, which then lets you turn the wheel too quickly or too much while still braking - and suddenly you've spun out with no idea why. The same happens out of corners, it doesn't force you to center the wheel while applying throttle.

I haven't found an "undrivable/broken" car in GT7 so far but I'll try that GT40.

Edit: By the way, I took my motorcycle to work today, -4 degrees celcius, snow and frost everywhere. I rode on country roads, motorway and through the city. I drove it like I drive RWD road cars in GT7 - no issues, and I had a blast! Thanks GT7 physics!

 

[Met Entso]

I think it went like this:

"we need to improve the physics"
"no problem, we will just make the cars more unstable"
"what?"
"people will think the physics is so real"
"genius"

 

[Johnnn]

Yesterday I played with many cars and realized physics is a show stopper to me. I just don't understand how to drive cars there. It's not about tuning, different cars, anything. Every single cars is bad in some sense. The physics looks OK for 90 % of the time and it's pretty good. The rest destroys the fun for me. I hate low speed hairpins when you without any reason lose rear traction. The same for higher speeds during some kind of weight transfer.

I don't know, I play racing games for more than 3 years on a gamepad and in last years mostly sims and I am not able to drive any car here properly. Don't know what is the problem.

 

[MrMattAdz]

I am one who forgives most of the unusual handling displayed by some of the cars in game, and tends to stick to those that "drive well" or I have tuned into sedation BUT...

Today trying the Ford GT, stock besides SS tires, and the thing is simply not driveable. It doesn't matter where you are at on throttle... at Blue Moon Bay in the Pan-American race it WILL NOT hold a corner at speed no matter what. It's done. Lift throttle, done. Keep in it. Done. Try to modulate through, and you're sitting there sawing at the wheel []i]trying[.i] to maintain a balance between over and understeer that just isn't there, all the while losing momentum. The GT is lauded for being an excellent car to drive, and though I have driven two examples in the real world, I never had the opportunity to push one near the limits of handling. With that said, it is a completely broken car in game, and very indicative of the issues with some others. This includes the GT based Mach 40, which I can only assume is the same model. Breaking traction with zero steering input past 130mph is just insane nonsense.

Same race, same track in a stock (other than SS tire) Camaro ZL1, and the thing is a million times more planted and confident, even though it'll murder you if you let it. Pretty damning that a wild ass Camaro with 700hp, and some other crazy cars, are a peach to drive next to the GT. This is not reflective of reality at all.

I am only putting this out there for others to chime in as well. While I'm still happy with the game as a whole, I CANNOT WAIT until something is done that brings the whole of it back down to the real world.

YES! I was literally coming here to report the same thing with the Ford GT '19'. I've been driving more and more American cars lately as I've been grinding a lot of the American only events.

It just feels like the difference in grip and stability at high speed between the front and rear wheels is too large. Camero ZL1 is problem free, go to Daytona and it's flat out, no need to be that cautious with how much steering angle you apply. The Corvette C6 ZR1 is a dream, but with the C7 ZR1 you start to see this very strange behaviour where the front has so much grip and is so responsive that you need to drop the front downforce right down, raise rear downforce right up, and even then you still need to be careful with steering angle.

The Ford GT '19' is bizarre, I've got it fully tuned, setup nicely so that it's really stable and nicely balanced (if anything there's a bit of understeer), and you can drive it round basically any circuit and start setting good times with it. Take it to Blue Moon Bay though and any attempt to accelerate through the widest corner, which is full throttle in basically every car in the game, and the rear slips out. This is with 300 rear downforce and racing soft tyres. It just feels wrong. I've said it before, other people have said it before, but there are certain scenarios where cars that are settled 95% of the time just react in the strangest way. To me it feels like there are certain scenarios where the front maybe has more grip than it should, and the rear of the car is almost suffering from lift despite the high downforce.

I think adjusting steering sensitivity probably does help but is that just a case of covering up the issue? Making the steering less responsive so the discrepancy in grip between the front and rear isn't given the opportunity to cause problems? Surely that has the potential to make you slower elsewhere though.

 

[xMAXIx79]

If you really have too much steering angle, I could still accept if the rear breaks out.

But if I take the last very long/fast left in Deep Forest and turn the steering wheel there by 1 to 3 points on the upper scale, but keep the accelerator pedal 100%, many road vehicles suddenly break out.

Even my R34 does that when I don't have the drive power at 50/50 but at 40/60 or 30/70. So the more power I put on the rear axle, the faster it breaks out. For comparison, my R34 at 50/50 and set to PP700 is a good 10 seconds faster on the Nordschleife than I can run it with the Tom's Castrol at PP700, although the Supra feels faster the whole time. As soon as I try to drive 45/55 or higher on the R34, I don't manage a single fault-free lap in which I even partially get to the Supra.

I definitely don't want to have such Acarde drifts of 1-2-3 km with FR vehicles as with FH5, but a little more grip on the rear axle would be nice.

 

[Johnnn]

What I saw yesterday, it could be something with weight transfer, when the car is not fully "on all 4", it starts to slide. If the car is calm and OK, everything works fine.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

That's a good example. I can't drive it with low FFB torque. But with very high torque, when braking into a corner, the wheel snaps back to middle forcing you to brake in a straight line and makes it very hard to turn until you've begun letting go of the brake. When you start releasing the brakes, the centering force in the wheel is lowered and it lets you turn the wheel gradually as you continue releasing the brakes. When you get back on the throttle, out of corners, the wheel starts forcing your wheel to the center again. Good FFB feels like cheating in comparison with poor FFB.
With low FFB torque, this isn't really felt, or at least not as clearly, which then lets you turn the wheel too quickly or too much while still braking - and suddenly you've spun out with no idea why. The same happens out of corners, it doesn't force you to center the wheel while applying throttle.

I haven't found an "undrivable/broken" car in GT7 so far but I'll try that GT40.

Edit: By the way, I took my motorcycle to work today, -4 degrees celcius, snow and frost everywhere. I rode on country roads, motorway and through the city. I drove it like I drive RWD road cars in GT7 - no issues, and I had a blast! Thanks GT7 physics!

Is that in an game torque setting of 5? I need to persevere with higher torque. I’m just used to the lower settings

 

[wheelhp]

it went like this:

"we need to improve the graphics"
"no problem, we will just make the cars more unstable"
"what?"
"people will think the physics is so real"
"genius"

fixed

 

[JDMKING13]

What I saw yesterday, it could be something with weight transfer, when the car is not fully "on all 4", it starts to slide. If the car is calm and OK, everything works fine.

ThIs is huge… you on a controller right? It’s really hard to feel the cars balance on a controller… this is why the wheel is just a better experience for me… I actually like the controller a lot… but the lack of feedback vs what I get from the wheel is the biggest difference… I have said it before if the chassis is off balance and you floor the gas it not going to end up good.

Anytime the rear steps out on me it’s because I’m using GTS throttle inputs or the car balance is off because of my driving… I have pretty much down graded all stock tires on my car so far, and I am having no problems. On the controller it’s a different story.. the one big positive for me with the controller is the triggers feel better than my pedals.. the feedback you get on the controllers triggers I wish could get that on my pedals!

 

[Johnnn]

ThIs is huge… you on a controller right? It’s really hard to feel the cars balance on a controller… this is why the wheel is just a better experience for me… I actually like the controller a lot… but the lack of feedback vs what I get from the wheel is the biggest difference… I have said it before if the chassis is off balance and you floor the gas it not going to end up good.

Anytime the rear steps out on me it’s because I’m using GTS throttle inputs or the car balance is off because of my driving… I have pretty much down graded all stock tires on my car so far, and I am having no problems. On the controller it’s a different story.. the one big positive for me with the controller is the triggers feel better than my pedals.. the feedback you get on the controllers triggers I wish could get that on my pedals!

I would agree with it but I never played GTS too much. I play all current sims and never had similar problems. It still could be me but I don't understand car physics then.

Overall it looks like car balance problem. In hairpin car is on one side mostly and game doesn't like it. High speed chicanes are the same. I can slow down a lot or I can try it "normally" but balance destroys my rear wheel grip. Which is not normal in other games. And ovals... you are mostly on one side too.

So I am not sure but I can't find how to control the game properly.

 

[br1x]

I think most people by now have realized there are big issues with the physics model, he is giving a good example in the end with the Porsche GT3 RS.

 

[Johnnn]

I think most people by now have realized there are big issues with the physics model, he is giving a good example in the end with the Porsche GT3 RS.

Sad is I tried this tuning before but still it's not enough. I used the Focus for American championships and still sometimes it went very wrong. It's hard to trust your car then. And how he said this is AWD which should be rather easy to drive. FR/RR is not better.

 

[NevilleNobody]

So I ran my first laps at the full ring circuit with a GT3 car, the 911. Holy smokes, what a mess . In GTS I used the M6 as there was a gold test for that so that is my cross reference, and man, it's insane the difference. InGT7 the cars clearly turn in better but man, it feels so stiff and skittish, not on the power just riding bumps or kerbs the car has like zero compliance and yes i raised the ride height and softened the suspension but the underlying physics have these cars super stiff and super nervous. It's a totally different game.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

With that said, take the Ford GT40 on SH tires and do a FAST lap on Blue Moon Bay, hell any track, without having an issue, and post it back up in here.

Are there any somewhat "cheap" "broken" cars that I can try?

 

[MrMattAdz]

Are there any somewhat "cheap" "broken" cars that I can try?

Depends what you think counts as cheap haha

 

[br1x]

Are there any somewhat "cheap" "broken" cars that I can try?

Corvette C7 ZR1 or Nissan 370Z are two good examples. 370Z only from memory of that early license test though, was a complete mess.

 

[MrMattAdz]

Corvette C7 ZR1 or Nissan 370Z are two good examples. 370Z only from memory of that early license test though, was a complete mess.

C7 ZR1 is terrible on oval circuits with the default setup but my only experience is after fully tuning it to 1000+BHP with all upgrades installed, so might not reflect the experience at completely stock.

 

[br1x]

C7 ZR1 is terrible on oval circuits with the default setup but my only experience is after fully tuning it to 1000+BHP with all upgrades installed, so might not reflect the experience at completely stock.

It is really bad stock too, the long drawn right corner at Willow Springs in 3rd gear and you just try to keep your speed with 30-40% throttle and it just randomly snap oversteers. This game just has a very obvious problem with rear end grip in addition to a few other issues.

 

[driftnick13]

That's a good example. I can't drive it with low FFB torque. But with very high torque, when braking into a corner, the wheel snaps back to middle forcing you to brake in a straight line and makes it very hard to turn until you've begun letting go of the brake.

The wheel shouldn't snap to the middle if you brake hard.

Edit: By the way, I took my motorcycle to work today, -4 degrees celcius, snow and frost everywhere. I rode on country roads, motorway and through the city. I drove it like I drive RWD road cars in GT7 - no issues, and I had a blast! Thanks GT7 physics!

It's true driving in GT7 is like driving a motorcycle on snow and ice.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

Alright, I just got 370Z and C7 ZR1. Stock tyres and stock tuning. Drove both for one lap (1) around Deep Forest Raceway. I haven't tried these cars before. 1:48 with 370Z and 1:40 with C7. Only ABS, as always. No crashes, but some sliding and spinning to test the limits. Nothing about the handling surprised me or felt strange. Every single detail of what was happening or was about to happen was felt clearly through the FFB.

I really liked how neutral the cars were so thanks for the advice! Especially the C7 was super fun!

However, I fully understand why some people find them "broken". I don't, and I really think they behave like this IRL.
Again, I blame poor wheels or poor FFB settings. But if you got a DD 8 Nm, try my FFB settings and still find them broken, I think that you just need to practice driving more.

Who wants a friendly race with these cars? I'm serious.

 

[MrMattAdz]

Alright, I just got 370Z and C7 ZR1. Stock tyres and stock tuning. Drove both for one lap (1) around Deep Forest Raceway. I haven't tried these cars before. 1:48 with 370Z and 1:40 with C7. Only ABS, as always. No crashes, but some sliding and spinning to test the limits. Nothing about the handling surprised me or felt strange. Every single detail of what was happening or was about to happen was felt clearly through the FFB.

I really liked how neutral the cars were so thanks for the advice! Especially the C7 was super fun!

However, I fully understand why some people find them "broken". I don't, and I really think they behave like this IRL.
Again, I blame poor wheels or poor FFB settings. But if you got a DD 8 Nm, try my FFB settings and still find them broken, I think that you just need to practice driving more.

Who wants a friendly race with these cars? I'm serious.

But that's the thing! ZR1s are great to drive round most tracks, I've been on a ZR1 bender recently while grinding Trial Mountain cup and they're all really fun to drive, obviously a bit of oversteer but that's to be expected with the huge amount of power you can get them up to. Same thing with the Ford GT '17, really lovely to drive at stock and when fully upgraded.

But try taking that C7 ZR1 to an oval and you will find that the rear of the car is more eager to slide at 200+ mph than it is at 70mph. The front of the car has good grip but the rear feels like it's floating or on ice. The Ford GT is even worse, I appreciate that it has a lot of power fully upgraded but it also has rear downforce set to 300. At lower speeds under acceleration it handles well and there are no surprises, but for some reason it is literally impossible to corner an oval which should easily be full throttle without the rear starting to slide.

These are cars on racing softs with a lot of downforce applied. It feels like the front of the car is having downforce applied correctly, but the rear doesn't have downforce applied properly.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

The wheel shouldn't snap to the middle if you brake hard.

You mean IRL? Agree. It wouldn't snap in ACC either. But in GT as well as in many other games where "seat of pants" is simulated - G-forces felt in your body - it should pull towards the middle since the rear end of the car is pulling outwards. No?

 

[br1x]

Alright, I just got 370Z and C7 ZR1. Stock tyres and stock tuning. Drove both for one lap (1) around Deep Forest Raceway. I haven't tried these cars before. 1:48 with 370Z and 1:40 with C7. Only ABS, as always. No crashes, but some sliding and spinning to test the limits. Nothing about the handling surprised me or felt strange. Every single detail of what was happening or was about to happen was felt clearly through the FFB.

I really liked how neutral the cars were so thanks for the advice! Especially the C7 was super fun!

However, I fully understand why some people find them "broken". I don't, and I really think they behave like this IRL.
Again, I blame poor wheels or poor FFB settings. But if you got a DD 8 Nm, try my FFB settings and still find them broken, I think that you just need to practice driving more.

Who wants a friendly race with these cars? I'm serious.

I have driven both of those cars in real life and they both absolutely don't behave that way at all.

You seem to be completely missing the point here, it is not about how fast they can be driven or that you can adapt to it. The problem is, they absolutely don't behave like they would in real life.
I am A+/S rated, I can be decently fast in this game, the aliens can be very fast in this game but it doesn't change that the car behavior is not very realistic in certain areas.

 

[br1x]

But that's the thing! ZR1s are great to drive round most tracks, I've been on a ZR1 bender recently while grinding Trial Mountain cup and they're all really fun to drive, obviously a bit of oversteer but that's to be expected with the huge amount of power you can get them up to. Same thing with the Ford GT '17, really lovely to drive at stock and when fully upgraded.

But try taking that C7 ZR1 to an oval and you will find that the rear of the car is more eager to slide at 200+ mph than it is at 70mph. The front of the car has good grip but the rear feels like it's floating or on ice. The Ford GT is even worse, I appreciate that it has a lot of power fully upgraded but it also has rear downforce set to 300. At lower speeds under acceleration it handles well and there are no surprises, but for some reason it is literally impossible to corner an oval which should easily be full throttle without the rear starting to slide.

These are cars on racing softs with a lot of downforce applied. It feels like the front of the car is having downforce applied correctly, but the rear doesn't have downforce applied properly.

I don't even think it is just downforce, it is a general problem of rear end traction that is just mitigated to a degree by tyres and to a lesser degree downforce. Or maybe even a problem in weight calculation, as like you said the cars feel very "light" on the rear which is also what you see in the offroad races and how cars behave in banked corners or bumpy areas in general.

 

[Scaff]

You mean IRL? Agree. It wouldn't snap in ACC either. But in GT as well as in many other games where "seat of pants" is simulated - G-forces felt in your body - it should pull towards the middle since the rear end of the car is pulling outwards. No?

No.

Well implemented Sop is subtle, not a single title I know of with SoP in the FFB does anything like this.

It's not SoP it's PDs poor FFB.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

But try taking that C7 ZR1 to an oval and you will find that the rear of the car is more eager to slide at 200+ mph than it is at 70mph.

The wheel goes gradually from light to brick wall when the suspension is compressed and the rear tyres are about to lose grip. IRL I'd feel that in my body, but with good FFB I feel it in my wheel instead.
When that happens, I need to slow down gently, let the wheel become a bit lighter, and at the same time turn it a bit more towards that brick wall.
If I'm stupid enough to push through that wall, I spin.
And for the 20th time, if the FFB is poor then you don't feel the wheel going from light to brick wall gradually. Of course it's near impossible then.