Gran Turismo 7 Team Picks Up Forza's Audio Lead to Improve Sound

Tenacious D
This one certainly did. I doubt you caught it in the early days of Forza 4, but I refused to upgrade the exhaust systems on my cars because they were already annoyingly loud and distorted. :P

Frankly, Mike's hiring may have minimal impact, even if the cars sound wonderful in GT7. Like, how could you tell what work was specifically his? No one would know unless he gave a very specific technical interview which isn't likely. But at the very least, fresh blood doesn't hurt.
Click to expand...
Well, he is the audio team leader, any output going forward is his direct responsibility. But I agree, one person cannot change everything, you need a strong team. One of the reasons Forza sounds good is because they've recorded cars under load rather than in neutral like PD. That alone is a massive factor. Will PD decide to record 1000+ cars from scratch? At this point nobody outside the studio knows. In any case I'm optimistic about GT7, but even if it's crap I won't worry too much, there are enough quality sims on the market to scratch that itch for me.
 
This great news and I sincerely hope he can or will in some way make a big difference. Better late than never. My expectation for this game is no longer at the rock bottom.
 
andrea
kyledancestobloodbourgkpwd.gif
Click to expand...
Omg this guy feels sad someone helps him a bad trip is goin on! LOL :lol:

Back on topic this could be great news. Let's see in 2029 when GT7 will be ready..
 
SimTourist
Well, he is the audio team leader, any output going forward is his direct responsibility. But I agree, one person cannot change everything, you need a strong team. One of the reasons Forza sounds good is because they've recorded cars under load rather than in neutral like PD. That alone is a massive factor. Will PD decide to record 1000+ cars from scratch? At this point nobody outside the studio knows. In any case I'm optimistic about GT7, but even if it's crap I won't worry too much, there are enough quality sims on the market to scratch that itch for me.
Click to expand...
For me the limiting factor is Kaz. This is Kaz's baby and the game goes the way Kaz wants it to go. If Kaz says, "Ok don't get too crazy with the sounds, our fans don't like them too loud or realistic, just make them a little better" then he'll take his paycheque for a couple of years and move on. Budget is also a limiting factor and it'll be larger or smaller, again depending on Kaz's feelings on the matter.
 
Johnnypenso
For me the limiting factor is Kaz. This is Kaz's baby and the game goes the way Kaz wants it to go. If Kaz says, "Ok don't get too crazy with the sounds, our fans don't like them too loud or realistic, just make them a little better" then he'll take his paycheque for a couple of years and move on. Budget is also a limiting factor and it'll be larger or smaller, again depending on Kaz's feelings on the matter.
Click to expand...

You obviously don't rate Kaz very highly but this just sounds a bit much.
 
SCER
You obviously don't rate Kaz very highly but this just sounds a bit much.
Click to expand...
Has nothing to do with rating him highly. Kaz/PD did a bang up job with the visuals on the PS3, none better, case closed. But a game is not all visuals and Kaz has different priorities obviously, a blind man could see that. Obviously racing is not a high priority for Gran Turismo either for example, given the state of the AI, lack of difficulty sliders in career mode, lack of driver rating system online, lack of full flags etc. Is that a "bit much" too?

A deaf man would also realize that up until now, accurate samples and accurately recreating the full spectrum of sounds eminating from a racing car have not been a priority or is that also a bit too much? All of this under Kaz's watch and Kaz's direction, hiring one man isn't necessarily going to change that. We'll see what happens but the point still stands, if Kaz is at the helm, all aspects of the game go as far as Kaz wishes it to go and no further.
 
Johnnypenso
A deaf man would also realize that up until now, accurate samples and accurately recreating the full spectrum of sounds eminating from a racing car have not been a priority or is that also a bit too much? All of this under Kaz's watch and Kaz's direction, hiring one man isn't necessarily going to change that. We'll see what happens but the point still stands, if Kaz is at the helm, all aspects of the game go as far as Kaz wishes it to go and no further.
Click to expand...


But "accurate samples and accurately recreating the full spectrum of sounds eminating from a racing car have not been a priority." =/= "Kaz will deliberately limit attempts to make sounds too much more realistic."

Why do you think that he'd try to limit the audio realism of his own game?
 
SCER
But "accurate samples and accurately recreating the full spectrum of sounds eminating from a racing car have not been a priority." =/= "Kaz will deliberately limit attempts to make sounds too much more realistic."

Why do you think that he'd try to limit the audio realism of his own game?
Click to expand...
You are drawing a conclusion where none was offered. I said the game goes where Kaz wills it to go, I didn't say he will deliberately limit...blah blah blah. Stop reading into my words what is not there.

the game goes the way Kaz wants it to go. If Kaz says,
Click to expand...

"If', not "will be". If is a conditional clause, not a conclusion. Kaz is the limiting factor, one man won't make any more difference than he is both capable of and limited to via Kaz's leadership.
 
Are we excited because we think that GT will begin to sound like Forza, which I hope it won't, or because we think this guy is better than anyone who ever worked in PD's sound department? If anything, I think it's good that non-Japanese employees get more of a voice at PD. Not that there's anything wrong with Japanese employees, but different cultural backgrounds cannot hurt game development that has significant universal appeal.
 
Nielsen
Are we excited because we think that GT will begin to sound like Forza, which I hope it won't, or because we think this guy is better than anyone who ever worked in PD's sound department? If anything, I think it's good that non-Japanese employees get more of a voice at PD. Not that there's anything wrong with Japanese employees, but different cultural backgrounds cannot hurt game development that has significant universal appeal.
Click to expand...

previous forzas were still somewhat limited by hardware so GT7 should sound as good as atleast if not better, I'm hoping they aim for DC level of sound.
 
Nielsen
Are we excited because we think that GT will begin to sound like Forza, which I hope it won't, or because we think this guy is better than anyone who ever worked in PD's sound department? If anything, I think it's good that non-Japanese employees get more of a voice at PD. Not that there's anything wrong with Japanese employees, but different cultural backgrounds cannot hurt game development that has significant universal appeal.
Click to expand...
My vote with go with Forza hands down.
 
Zer0
http://pitstop.gran-turismo.com/en/article/37
Click to expand...
IMG_0519-e1402927777297.jpg


The car for data capture would be placed in neutral, and revved from idle to every 1000 RPM mark and held, with a number of microphones placed inside, outside, in the engine room, and wherever else needed. In the end, multi sampled data was made in this way....Of course I myself am not satisfied with the sound in Gran Turismo, and to the players out there I can only say, uum, I’m really sorry.
Click to expand...
 
I'm currently watching the video in the news now. Very interesting, I'm liking it. And over at 10:06 of the video, the slide in the presentation shows "What does a car sound like if it uses an energy beam instead of gas?" . Hmmm, possible reference to Chaparral 2X VGT? 💡

This is perhaps one of the best business decisions PD has made so far. I'm curious though, as to why Mike Caviezel left the Forza dev team in the first place.
 
Nielsen
I think both games sound off in their own ways. GT is too sterile and Forza is too muffled.
Click to expand...
Well, I'll have to say that in Forza 4's case, the cars didn't have much of a muffler.

By the way, Johnny, thank you for completely ignoring the article that Zer0 posted a link to. So for the class:
Regarding Engine Sounds of Gran Turismo: (Part.2)
Posted by Kazunori Yamauchi | June 18, 2014

The intake and exhaust sound of a car always sounds best at the engine’s full open, fully loaded condition (under full acceleration) in its power band. (Recently there have been cars that are tuned to sound the best under load conditions encountered in daily use, before the full open/fully loaded state. A good example of this are cars like the Lexus LFA and the Ferrari 458). All “drivers” know, that engines sound the best when the car is at full throttle under load of acceleration, in its power band, when the airflow through the engine is the greatest; when the engine is “flat out”.

And we’ve had the desire to record engines under those conditions, but in actuality this is quite difficult. Sampling of engine sounds have to be recorded in samples that has a certain amount of length (a full second at minimum), with frequency (pitch) variation at a steady state, or else its not possible to create a sound asset that loops correctly. If the pitch varies, its difficult to restore the sound to a condition in which the pitch is constant.

And having the car at full acceleration in a straight line (so in effect, the pitch increasing gradually with the rise in engine RPM) with microphones in the car recording this, then using sound tools to apply counters to negate pitch changes and then returning the pitch to a constant state did not produce a quality looped sound piece.

So we also tried running the car on a lightly ascending slope, thereby placing the car under load and using a higher gear at full throttle, not decelerating or accelerating; but again this is not easy. Using a roller chassis dynamo you can record engine sound with the engine under load, but the rotation noise of the roller itself, and the noise of its contact with the tires was greater than the exhaust sound, and didn’t prove to be a good alternative.

However there was a turning point in 2003, when we met with Mr. Tanabe of Amuse, one of the leading car tuners of Japan in his day (Mr. Tanabe passed away in 2008). We found that the “Dynapack” chassis dynamo used by Tanabe san (known to be a perfectionist) for precision engine settings was perfect for capturing engine sound.

to be continued.
Click to expand...
But wait, there's more.

Regarding Engine Sounds of Gran Turismo: (Part.3)
Posted by Kazunori Yamauchi | July 23, 2014

The Dynapack is a type of “Dynamo” that is used to measure engine output, but unlike a roller type where the car is placed on top of the machine, the dynamo for applying load to the car is connected directly to the wheel hub of the drive wheels. Because it is connected directly to the hub, you don’t have to worry about tire slippage as you do using a roller type. You can then change the loads on the car as you like. This means that you can almost completely recreate driving conditions with the car at a stand still.

We can do things that are like magic; like keeping the engine rpm exactly at 3000 rpm even at full throttle. Its easy on a Dynapack. This makes it like a machine that was tailor made for recording engine sound. Since then, we have asked Tanabe san of Amuse for his help in recording engine sound, and the cars with high quality sounds in Gran Turismo are generally those that have been recorded on the Dynapack.

So then it comes to, well, you should record all the cars on a Dynapack. But the problem is, a chassis dynamo is not a simple piece of equipment that a group of game creators could just pick up and use, and its not easy to carry this equipment to every place in the world where we data capture cars. It also doesn’t help that there aren’t enough people in the sound team.
And the biggest problem is that the sound recordings have not caught up to the increase in the number of cars. But its something we have to do. Nowadays the equipment is starting to be built smaller as well.

And another piece of background regarding the general feedback that sound started to sound cheap since GT5, is not that the quality of the sound source had changed, but is in the fact that the method of creating a realistic and precise soundscape was improved first. In order to make the system compatible with true surround sound, it was set up so that the positions of a massive number of sound sources within a space, and the directions of sound emissions were calculated precisely. And with automatic gain control, the audio level of the entire scene was output without overflowing and without distortion. This made it so that engine sounds that used to be overdriven and extremely distorted until GT4 was now ringing through clean without distortion, and with an old sound sampling the weakness of the sound source became very noticeable.

Automatic gain control that is unavoidable in producing precise sound is actually pretty difficult to match to human perception. A side effect of auto gain control is not being able to hear your engine sound when catching up to the car in front, or when the tires are screeching loudly.

And its also pains me that there are no sound engineers around anymore that can “make sound”.
20 years ago, there was a culture of sound synthesizers, where it was like “if you can’t record it, make it”. But since the advent of samplers, there are less and less people nowadays that are able to trace back sounds to their original principles of creation, and synthesize sounds that sound authentic.

Right now we are in the midst of making improvements regarding these issues, and I think we’ll be able to come up with results soon, but still there just isn’t enough staff.

So any sound engineers, recording engineers out there that are like “Hey let ME improve the sounds of Gran Turismo!”, we’re hiring. It should be pretty fun working to unravel the mysteries of sound from a technical point of view, and travel all over the world recording sounds in the process.

From the Editorial Department: We are currently recruiting Sound Engineers and Recording Engineers. Please emailrecruit_sound@polyphony.co.jp. The choice of content, style and format of any resume’s are left to the applicant.
Please note that applications can only be accepted in Japanese or English, and those who have passed the preliminary evaluation by email will be contacted by our staff.
Click to expand...
Hmm... I wonder if anything ever came of that recruitment drive... :D
 
Tenacious D
Well, I'll have to say that in Forza 4's case, the cars didn't have much of a muffler.

By the way, Johnny, thank you for completely ignoring the article that Zer0 posted a link to. So for the class:

But wait, there's more.


Hmm... I wonder if anything ever came of that recruitment drive... :D
Click to expand...
Call the newspapers. Call CNN. Call Obama. PD hired someone!!!
smiley-laughing001.gif


When will this madness stop!!
 

Latest Posts

Back