Gran Turismo's Future: "4K Resolution is Enough", But 240fps is the Target

94
United States
United States
I’m cool with 120, since most modern TVs top out at 120hz refresh. 4K is enough as well, and I love the HDR, much more useful than the 4K. Smoothness of Rez is good direction though.
 

TonyJZX

(Banned)
3,945
Australia
Australia
I believe most "120hz" TVs... (called "Flow Motion" or whatever buzzword) do not actually support a true 120hz.

They interpolate 60hz into 120hz.

You can test this by hooking up a PC and trying to force it to 120hz. It wont work.

This is one of my points... I dont believe we can actually buy TVs that support true 120hz.

Monitors yes. TVs no.
 
5,724
Canada
Ontario
SvennoJ
SvenZ
This question goes out to anyone interested in multi-class racing: why?

In reality, it's to solve an problem that simply doesn't exist in GTS, or anything virtual.

For Le Mans, multiclass was considered a Really Dumb Idea for a long time (and arguably still is) because the speed difference between cars was and is so high. This wasn't just a safety concern (closing speeds between vehicles) but also for the quality or racing (GT cars being mobile chicanes to the top tiers, means competitive cars get separated too easy).
Also in GT Sport, you don't have to worry so much about the Gentleman Drivers needed to prop up teams either, though that point could be argued at CA-BA rating online....

Why do they do it? Because the top tier class was too small.
Is that a problem in GT Sport? No.


For the Nurburgring 24h it's kind of similar - except you're not limited by the number of entry slots (pit spaces, track limits). I think they had to cap some classes, from memory. You can't run multiple 24h races over a month to fit in everyone in every class who wants to enter.

Why do they do it? Because they can only run the one 24H of Nurburging race a year.
Is that a problem in GT Sport? No.


Multi-class is a solution to a problem that simple doesn't exist in this context.

You DON'T add it to improve the racing - a full grid of competitive cars is going to product better racing than only a handful of competitive cars.
You DO add it only to fill up small grids in real life, typically because the category organizers suck at their jobs.

Because it's fun and there's an interest in it, for example:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/multi-class-endurance-catalunya-03-11-2019.390153/

I've done multi-class races on Sarthe and Nurburgring as well, however the 16 player lobby limit makes it kinda dull. It makes endurance races more dynamic with more encounters and opportunities to catch and get away.

There's no need for tire wear or fuel use in digital racing, so why add it?
 
4,465
Bulgaria
Bulgaria
I believe most "120hz" TVs... (called "Flow Motion" or whatever buzzword) do not actually support a true 120hz.

They interpolate 60hz into 120hz.

You can test this by hooking up a PC and trying to force it to 120hz. It wont work.

This is one of my points... I dont believe we can actually buy TVs that support true 120hz.

Monitors yes. TVs no.
Some high-end expensive TV models have a true 120Hz panel. I have Samsung 55"Q7NF that works on my PC with 1920x1080/120Hz, 4K is 60Hz. For 4K/120Hz you need TV with HDMI 2.1
 
496
TBR 427
Because it's fun and there's an interest in it, for example:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/multi-class-endurance-catalunya-03-11-2019.390153/

I've done multi-class races on Sarthe and Nurburgring as well, however the 16 player lobby limit makes it kinda dull. It makes endurance races more dynamic with more encounters and opportunities to catch and get away.

I'm not saying it doesn't add an element of challenge to the race; navigating the lower-class cars is 100% something that takes effort, and some faith and luck.

To add to that point, the player limit has effectively double the effect vs lap distance (basically, the cars-per-meter) if there's multiple classes. You're talking about the 'encounter rate' for cars.
If you've got 8 Gr1 and 8 Gr3 cars you shouldn't be anywhere near the longer tracks.

With some rounding, Le Mans has 10 LMP1, 20 LMP2 and 30 GT3 cars on a 13.5km track.

That example, Barcelona, is 4.5km. Scaled down, that's ~6 LMP2 cars and 10 GT3 cars, roughly the top/bottom class split in your example (by luck or skill, not sure). Ignoring LMP1 because they split up and do their own thing most of the time.

If you were to do La Sarthe with 16 players, that's literally a third of the cars you'd see on-track at any time. Encounters only happening 30% as often, 300% more space between vehicles. At Nurburgring, that's even worse; encounters 20% as often and 450% space between vehicles!


TL;DR


Long story short: rule 1 for creating competition is to increase the number of competitive entrants. It makes the field tighter, and less susceptible to irregular results.

We've all seen this with the Formula 1 and Formula 1.5 series over the last few years.

If you've got a limited field number (ie number of pit boxes, minimum safe area on track per car (a real thing), or any other reason, the better solution is to add more cars to one class, not add more classes.

And those limits are what it's always going to come down to. Both in real life (above reasons) and virtually (rendering and/or network bottlenecks).

There's no need for tire wear or fuel use in digital racing, so why add it?

This is actually easy to answer - by giving racers a limited availability of energy (in the form of fuel) or tire life, or anything really, that opens up significant strategy options while keeping the maximum number of cars relatively close, or imminently close. This also promotes overtaking between competing vehicles, rewards precision and discipline, and raises the skill ceiling.

This is something that would readily be added artificially (and somewhat still is, ie the Boost button on SuperFormula), except there's usually a natural solution that exists already.

Admittedly there are times when real series take it too far and blow things out artificially, just like there are times when people just aren't able to adjust to change, regardless of the merits or any objective measures. Pirelli's F1 department probably knows this too well.
 
57
Antarctica
Antarctica
Seems like an excuse to make the game a lot less impressive than it can be on PS5. Almost nobody needs 240fps lol and how many got 4k TVs? even If everyone had them, resolution alone doesn't make a game look fantastic, you can upscale GT1 to 64k 480fps, it's still gonna look like complete ass compared to any modern racing game.
 
195
Germany
Germany
The only upside I see in announcing 240Hz rather than 120Hz is this:
If you don't make it, you will be able to blame it on the TV market in 2021 not offering 240Hz

IMHO, 120Hz should be the new standard. With close to no LAG (i.e. an appropriate game mode for TVs)
Everything beyond 120Hz seems to be for insects, not the human eye.
4k should also be standard, with 8k obviously desirable for really big screens and VR.
 
399
United States
United States
andrewhake
With all of these PS4 exclusive titles now coming to PC I am really curious if we will ever get a PC version of GT Sport or another GT title? I would have always assumed no but after seeing that Death Stranding is coming to PC maybe that has opened up for all of these studios. GT Sport could be really amazing on higher end hardware. It is already one of the best looking sim titles on the market, would be amazing to see what they can do with more hardware.
 
10,970
United Kingdom
West Yorkshire
Tired_Tyres
It's required if you want to completely eliminate aliasing, in that I've never seen it achieved without that. Rendering at the display resolution with 8x MSAA leaves significant aliasing. Even the PS4 Pro's 4k rendering of GTS downsampled to 1080p has significant aliasing because it's not a full 4k rendering, and doesn't have enough AA applied at 4k. You need significantly more power than a PS4 Pro has just to produce a perfect 60fps 1080p image, never mind a perfect 240fps 4k image.


The relevance of games running on PC is it gives us an idea of what is possible. It seems unlikely that PS5 is going to massively exceed the performance of a 2080Ti. From the specs published so far, it seems it will perform more like the 5700 XT I've got in my gaming PC, i.e. 9-10 TFLOPS. That can manage around 90fps 4k with 4x MSAA for FH4. It's a nice improvement over current gen consoles, but 240fps 4k with really nice AA is PS6 or even PS7 territory IMO.
My 2070 super at 4K gets a minimum 120 fps and maximum of 240 in FH4. I've set it to 60 due to the TV my PC is plugged into. FM7 is significantly harder to drive at 4K but a 60 lock is possible.

The new Xbox should exceed my system not sure about the PS5 though. Not unless the two system rumour is correct anyway. I can't see 9 TF doing it.
 
456
With all of these PS4 exclusive titles now coming to PC I am really curious if we will ever get a PC version of GT Sport or another GT title? I would have always assumed no but after seeing that Death Stranding is coming to PC maybe that has opened up for all of these studios. GT Sport could be really amazing on higher end hardware. It is already one of the best looking sim titles on the market, would be amazing to see what they can do with more hardware.
DS is not a sony game and the kojima team is not a sony first party.
DS only had a timed exclusive on ps4, the pc version had already been announced when they announced the game.
the only sony title that will be cross-platform is MBA, just to not lose the license.
 
195
Germany
Germany
With 120fps the benefit is never dropping out of variable refresh rate range. This keeps the input lag very low.
The input lag is pretty important, I agree.
But on the software side, it only depends on:
  • The rate at which the pad or wheel inputs are polled/processed.
    (The physics engine could run at 12000Hz and still only use new input every 60Hz)
  • The time the graphics output lags behind the physics. Usually one frame with double buffering
The important hardware part is to have a fast display.
I'm not sure how they works, but probably there is at least one more buffering step, which is unnecessary in principle.
 
142
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
ThruxtonGT
Pretty sure the next GT will be targeting 120FPS 4K. I think his comments about 240FPS are meant as an incremental step beyond next gen targeting 120FPS.
 
487
Italy
Italy
I hope on the next gen they refine these upscaling techniques up to the level of dlss 2.0 of Nvidia. If they manage to do that,they can run the game at half of the 4k resolution while having the same sharpnes of native 4k,in this manner they can save a lot of power for other things such as raytracing,more objects on the screen etc.