Grip Bug Thread v2

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Shottah072
LOL you really think you should be faster then some alien sim racers because you have some real life experience ? It doesnt work like that. I can beat Rubens Barrichello in a virtual single seater on iRacing but put both of us in a real single seater and he will no doubt destroy me. Its two completely different things.
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Off topic:
Did you really? That’s nice! I’d brag about that (inside my own head) for the rest of my life!
 
Nando deBem
Off topic:
Did you really? That’s nice! I’d brag about that (inside my own head) for the rest of my life!
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Well, sort of... Only seen and raced him once at Sonoma in the FR2.0. Was 3 tenths faster in practice, 1 tenth slower in qualy. I started 3rd behind Rubens. He had a good start an overtook 1st on the inside at the first uphill right hander, 1st then spun on the outside came back and took me out. I was gutted cause we ran some laps together in practice and were fairly matched, could have been a good race.

But the point is. Most top racers would get destroyed by top simracers and vice versa. It requires different skill sets to drive a sim fast vs a car fast. Some stuff correlates of course and both should be able to adjust easier if they already are fast in one aspect. But it is far from the same. Saying the fastest sim racers are fishy because you drive a real race car and cant replicate makes no sense.
 
RA1784
Is it just me or is it strange that customers who paid money to have fun on a product are doing the work for the developers? Its been a week since this massive issue is public and still no reaction. All this has a huge potential to take the fun out of the whole game. Hope PD gets this sorted soon...
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For comparison, some bugs in Overwatch were just ignored by Blizzard because all people would just do is whine and say "omg this is so broken !", until one guy made a documented thread with videos and stuff. Blizzard acknowledge the thread and said they were working on it but that still took 2 weeks for them to get a patch live on the PTR servers - which was reasonable imho. We know the info got passed onto PD, we just have to show some patience now. From a commercial standpoint, people expect them to deliver on additional content, and knowing that only 6% of GTS players got more than 20 races in Sports mode (according to kudosprime stats), I wouldn't be surprized if the patch misses next update. But they can't launch the 1st official season with something like this going on, so I'm pretty confident this should be solved before March in the worst scenario.
 
UGA95
With all due respect, you need to get off your high horse. Just because you've been gaming for a long time and have real racing experience doesnt mean you're smarter than everyone else in this thread and we're just a bunch of dumb gamers that don't know what we're talking about, which is the vibe you're puting off. No one in this thread ever said anything about this game being the most realistic representation of real life.

You started off by claiming that everybody in the top 10 on the leaderboards is fishy just because you're incapable of replicating their times, which is just an insult to those people who take the time everyday to practice and get on those leaderboards. You cite your many years of "real racing" as your validation for making such a claim, and gave us your upcoming schedule at Road Atlanta. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything unless you're implying that because you have real experience and you can't make the leaderboards you think the people faster than you without real experience are suspicious. Which is just ridiculous. GT Academy has proven capable of taking some of these top drivers and turning them into drivers capable of racing competitively in real life. There is a lot of extremely talented people on these leaderboards and you seem to not realize that.

Secondly, you stated the reason you can't replicate their laps is because your braking distance is off by 50-100m compared to the top people on the leaderboards, and you can't simulate even one of their corners. I just find that number you gave almost impossible to believe, and I will continue to believe that until you provide a clip to prove me wrong. You are either lying, or there is something drastically wrong with your game, or you need more practice, simple as that. And I hate to tell ya, but there's only a handful of people right now on these leaderboards that have this bug. Almost all of these laps you're calling fishy and incapable of replicating are 100% legit and a result of practice and skill.

Lastly, if this is just a "stupid game" as you put it, then why do you play it?
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The screenshots and video are in OP of huge difference in braking distance .
 
Spurgy 777
Do you think separating out the "what we know" section into bullet pointed known effects under "what is the bug" and leaving the "what we know" section for everything related to things we've tried to fix it and things we know probably aren't causes, would improve the OP? Maybe @Tidgney can help out with a side by side comparison of a bugged lap and legit lap as well to more clearly see the differences as switching between two separate videos makes it harder to see.
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I can do a video comparison for you, are the replays still available/shared? I'll record them tonight.
 
Just a side note: Maybe, just maybe, the so called 'bugged physics' is the correct/intended/better one. So, actually 99.9% of us suffer from the 'worse physics' bug. Only the happy 0.1% enjoy the correct low speed grip physics.

Seriously, the low speed grip is sometimes just ridiculous. The cars cannot go over a curb at 40mph without spinning.
 
phil_75
The screenshots and video are in OP of huge difference in braking distance .
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That is not 50-100m nor does every person in the top 10 have the bug that allows them to brake later than others. He said all the top lap times brake 50-100m past where he can which is just false. 98% of the top laps are done with the same exact physics as he is dealing with.
 
Man o man...

Ok, for the doubters, this isn't about being in the top ten or NOT being in the top ten. It's about unrealistic lap times regardless of the pace. It's about things not adding up and people gaining without right and denying others what they deserve.

Here's one of my examples (I wish I had the replay, but this is from before we started looking into it). I can run 1-2 seconds off a top ten time, so I'm ok. At one of the GR3 race at Nurb GP, I was running a respectable time. A player caught me in a Mustang, then he crashed, then he caught me, then he crashed, then he caught me and passed me. His lines were bad. He (obviously) couldn't keep it on track very well at all. How does a guy who crashes twice (that I saw) jive with a pace so fast that he can catch me twice, but still not set the fastest lap in the race?

Now, I've been on the track with some legit good players and I have never seen them do this. THIS is what I care about in regards to this bug.

There are tons of posts all over the forum from frustrated and confused players and this bug could be the culprit. How frustrating is it when you are just trying to set a clean lap and some dude is slamming into everything, including you, and still does WAY better than you?

If you are under the impression that this bug is about a bunch of ego maniacs trying to justify their lack of pace, you aren't paying attention.
 
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any guesses how many DR:A+ have this bug? if their physics get fixed, I am curious how many will drop off their ranks. I read 6% of 1.9m players are sport mode regulars, which makes it approx. 114K players. If the top ~5% (guessing for this example, feel free to correct it if you know the actual) are a mix of DR:A/S, that's 5700 players. if 1%, that's only 1140 players and this bug (like voodoovaj was saying) could be giving a lot of people false ratings (not just top ten). I myself have experienced very sloppy/mistake filled drivers who still manage to do really well.

Hoping for some answers about this from PD soon, thank you guys for all the research on this.
 
NommyNom
any guesses how many DR:A+ have this bug? if their physics get fixed, I am curious how many will drop off their ranks. I read 6% of 1.9m players are sport mode regulars, which makes it approx. 114K players. If the top ~5% (guessing for this example, feel free to correct it if you know the actual) are a mix of DR:A/S, that's 5700 players. if 1%, that's only 1140 players and this bug (like voodoovaj was saying) could be giving a lot of people false ratings (not just top ten). I myself have experienced very sloppy/mistake filled drivers who still manage to do really well.

Hoping for some answers about this from PD soon, thank you guys for all the research on this.
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You can see the actual numbers here:
http://www.jasonguernsey.net/gts/Driver-Rating
I believe this site only counts players that done at least 1 race.

Currently 3800 players in DR A.
 
NommyNom
any guesses how many DR:A+ have this bug? if their physics get fixed, I am curious how many will drop off their ranks. I read 6% of 1.9m players are sport mode regulars, which makes it approx. 114K players. If the top ~5% (guessing for this example, feel free to correct it if you know the actual) are a mix of DR:A/S, that's 5700 players. if 1%, that's only 1140 players and this bug (like voodoovaj was saying) could be giving a lot of people false ratings (not just top ten). I myself have experienced very sloppy/mistake filled drivers who still manage to do really well.

Hoping for some answers about this from PD soon, thank you guys for all the research on this.
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Based on extremely rough estimates (using number of known players with bug and an estimate of the number of players who in theory could set top 10 times with the bug, i.e. within 2-3 seconds of top 10 times) you would be looking at around 0.1/0.2% of people having the bug. Again, we lack way too much information to know if that is remotely accurate, but it's about as good a guess as we can get.

So the number of bugged and false A+ ranks would be 0.1/0.2% of the number of people capable of getting within 2-3 seconds off the pace required to be A+ rank, but not actually being fast enough to get into A rank.

Now using the stats @Shottah072 has linked and assuming that all B rank drivers are within the range (which I doubt they would be but anyway), then you would have about 80 bugged players in A+ rank that shouldn't be there using 0.2% bugged.

But this is obviously a fair amount of guess work missing a lot of actual numbers or even information on what causes the bug.
 
1. How sure are we that it is really just an on/off bug for >3sec advantage.
2. The basic driving school lessons (just accelerating or just braking) should show the bug most clearly. (If it exists outside races.) I find the acceleration times a little suspicious. Are they using manual clutch?
3. Aside from the bug, are we really sure that PS4 and PS4 Pro do exactly the same simulation. As a game developer, I know a lot of ways this could be messed up.

Another side note: I have been concerned with the issue of really equal physics since Gran Turismo 1. Even did an online survey for some basic driving school lessons. NO problems found. Equal hardware greatly reduces the chances of messing things up (as a developer).

Before that I had a ridiculous experience with the racing game "Screamer" on PC. Some Japanese guy posted lap times 5sec better than mine. I had practiced a lot, so this made me suspicious. I found that the grip was depending critically on the framerate. On a faster PC with low graphics settings (which I used for FPS>50) the cars were sliding a lot, while at FPS=10 (aargh), they had lots of grip. It was just a ridiculous implementation of friction/grip. Years later I played this on Pentium 3 or 4 at FPS>200 and it was just impossible to drive. The friction in this sim would go to 0 for infinite framerate. Just a ridiculous implementation.
 
Spurgy 777
The laps I used for the Nurb comparison are still shared so you can use those two.
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Cheers Spurgy, I grabbed them tonight after the nations cup race :)! I'll try sort it out tomorrow as I don't believe there's any racing tomorrow in PCars2 or GT Sport... This schedule is a killer (And I want to race as I love them at the moment)!
 
TT92
I have read every post on this topic here and thought it was time I said something.

What this sounds like to me is the exact oposite of what we used get on GT6 in online lobbies - "The Slipery Track Bug". When I previously (years ago litterally) discussed it here it was poo pooed by many and I was catergorically told it was my imagination so i stopped.

The "Slippery Track Bug - STB" could affect anywhere from 1 person to everyone present in the lobby. A close collegue and and I our lap times were nearly identical so it was sort of easy to spot when it occured and we always used Comfort or Sport tyres so it was easier to notice anyway.

Having said this the symptoms were lap times would drop 1-2.5 secs a lap (depending on track length) loss of grip entering and exiting corners especially increased braking distances.

The way to solve it then was to reset the track (change to a different location and then back) but not always and sometimes it would plague only one player all night regardless. When this happened the person affected would use 1 grade of tyre softer and then hey presto all fixed (not really but we could race together again).

like I said, this new bug here reminds me of this old one but reversed. PD never admitted to this STB and so never adressed the issue (that I know of). It was even dismissed here by many as well and of course the person affected never really knew that he had it and just thought he was slower than everyone else.

Also I should not need to remind everyone GT6 online was plagued with bugs. The not being able to see other players on track, sound drop outs (that I also get with GT Sport!) etc, etc

It would seem to me in PD's efforts to iron out all these previous bugs they have over compensated somehow with GTS.

I have also noticed much slower players exhibiting extrordinary levels of grip and also noticed they have no idea how to drive either ;-) I would venture to say that this issue is far more widespread than anyone actually realises. You have identified a few people at the top end that exhibit this bug but the slower the driver the harder it will be to prove.

My $0.02 worth
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That is still there with and it can go from a good room to bad just as easily if you need to reset for some reason.
 
Our good friend is still going strong in the top 10... I've noticed that he's often the only one in the leaderboard that doesn't have a watch replay button next to his name. So it could be linked to the bug, or that he just backs out quickly when the replay's uploading so no one sees his beastly drive.

I know it's PD's fault and he has a right to still be playing on that account, but he's going to be in for a nice surprise when this gets fixed. Would be wise to just accept the situation and practice on a secondary account for now. (I guess he would rather kick everyones "girly asses" instead... :scared:)
 
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Tou2istTrophy
Our good friend is still going strong in the top 10... I've noticed that he's often the only one in the leaderboard that doesn't have a watch replay button next to his name. So it could be linked to the bug, or that he just backs out quickly when the replay's uploading so no one sees his beastly drive.

I know it's PD's fault and he has a right to still be playing on that account, but he's going to be in for a nice surprise when this gets fixed. Would be wise to just accept the situation and practice on a secondary account for now. (I guess he would rather kick everyones "girly asses" instead... :scared:)
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Replays haven't been available for a while, I did notice wasn't first in the B race though, does that mean there is another suspect one or someone who has overcome?
 
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XAroGantzX
Replays haven't been available for a while, I did notice wasn't first in the B race though, does that mean there is another suspect one or someone who has overcome?
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If he's not first on the leaderboard (Asia), it's because there are some top guys playing on standard physics who can beat him. His laps are no where near the standard of the guys in the top 10, he just so happens to have a ~3 second advantage. If you gave a legitimate player this bug they would be well below achievable time, whereas this guy is only able to match (or sometimes even not match standard P1). If someone beats him, don't suspect it's another bug unless you analyse the replay, because his times are not even that good as it is.
 
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Hence my question mate, I looked at the replay but my analytical skills are not there. It certainly wasn't an accusation but the first time I've seen someone higher for a while.
 
Oh this thread explains a lot lol.
I was racing a few weeks ago on Interlagos Gr.3 dayly against RA1784. It felt like he had a boost activ in the last corner of Interlagos where my Mustang was on the limit he was easy 0,5 to 1 second faster. I thought maybe it was just him as a good racer in combination with porsche. In fast sections i didnt feel like i lost much time on him.
It was when i pushed myself from Dr. B to A. Only he was costing me 1st place and fastest lap every time lol ;).
The race was with tire wear on and we both always pitted in lap 5 of 10.
But i think even without the bug he would have been 1st or 2nd every race. The other opponents were not that fast on this day.
 
XAroGantzX
Replays haven't been available for a while, I did notice wasn't first in the B race though, does that mean there is another suspect one or someone who has overcome?
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Replay not being available just means the game considered there was not enough space available to record it. I had that problem last week, the game just prompted me a message saying there was less than 5Mb available so it would record a replay. I did a top 10 lap time at that moment and the replay wasn't available to download. My PS4 is brand new 1 To, so I wonder if there's a limit to how many replays you can have in your library (ditching some solved the problem).
 
Without reading this whole thread, a friend of mine last night shared his replay... After watching a good race I clicked on the live timing near the end to show lap times and caught a real strange anomaly.... He was on SS tyres where everybody else was on SH. Could this be proof of this grip bug? I took a screenshot and the replay is plain to see.
Porsche daily at dragon trail.
 
LAVAMAN_82
Without reading this whole thread, a friend of mine last night shared his replay... After watching a good race I clicked on the live timing near the end to show lap times and caught a real strange anomaly.... He was on SS tyres where everybody else was on SH. Could this be proof of this grip bug? I took a screenshot and the replay is plain to see.
Porsche daily at dragon trail.
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I don't think that is a result of this bug, we've pretty much ruled out different tyre compounds being the cause as it doesn't explain the handling characteristics we see and bugged players still have extra grip even on RSS.

It has been known for the wrong tyre compounds to show went spectating people in a custom lobby, so it's possible that the same could happen with a replay and that that is the reason why it was showing up as SS tyres.
 
LAVAMAN_82
Without reading this whole thread, a friend of mine last night shared his replay... After watching a good race I clicked on the live timing near the end to show lap times and caught a real strange anomaly.... He was on SS tyres where everybody else was on SH. Could this be proof of this grip bug? I took a screenshot and the replay is plain to see.
Porsche daily at dragon trail.
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That's been hapenning to me as well but since i bought the game by the end of November. Saw it in sport mode and private lobbies. It seems a minor bug to me, but they should fix it anyway.
 
Yeah that bug was also there in GT6. If you allow multiple tyre compounds for a race, the game will always show cars other than yours with the same compound they started with.
 
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