GT Academy
- Thread starter Jack
- 824 comments
- 79,053 views
- 27,257
- United Kingdom
*Yawn* Done to death.
Glad to see the DFP can still be used competitively against the G25 - there is no way on earth I can afford the G25 but I've been looking at the DFP as a likely choice.
My problem now is having the space for a wheel and pedals.I have nowhere at all to mount it with my current setup so the wheel will have to be going on my knees...
- 324
- GTP_PrudentBear
Can I just confirm that I am using a G25 but have not yet tried a lap using the clutch - as I mentioned in a previous post I have nowhere to mount the gear lever so I'm using paddles for now. This competition has a few weeks left to run so if things are getting desperate later on I'll have to learn to use the clutch. Just haven't got the time at the moment though.
- 761
- neoseiken
- chromatic9
GT Academy Top 22 UK & Ireland
Track: The Eiger Nordwand Forward
Car: Nissan Fairlady Z Version S '07 (Non-Tuned)
Driving Physics: Professional
Tyres: Normal N1
1. Andy_616 - 1'20.942
2. PrudentBear - 1'21.230
3. GTP_Sphinx - 1'21.278
4. rapid46 - 1'21.422
5. GTP_Mr_P - 1'21.484
6. No46_TheDoctor - 1'21.536
7. mogus-3000 - 1'21.554
8. KarlRacer - 1'21.563
9. Oldbeanee - 1'21.570
10. WingedBeast1968 - 1'21.630
11. Chronos-GTS - 1'21.634
12. SelfMutilation - 1'21.652
13. nemoh - 1'21.667
14. Steve-o-tron - 1'21.671
15. GTP_Stervisiov - 1'21.706
16. GTGENIUS1982 - 1'21.714
17. theewar - 1'21.735
18. GTP_JohnnyD - 1'21.746
19. GTP_Ren-Tec - 1'21.788
20. digitalmovement - 1'21.807
Track: The Eiger Nordwand Forward
Car: Nissan Fairlady Z Version S '07 (Non-Tuned)
Driving Physics: Professional
Tyres: Normal N1
1. Andy_616 - 1'20.942
2. PrudentBear - 1'21.230
3. GTP_Sphinx - 1'21.278
4. rapid46 - 1'21.422
5. GTP_Mr_P - 1'21.484
6. No46_TheDoctor - 1'21.536
7. mogus-3000 - 1'21.554
8. KarlRacer - 1'21.563
9. Oldbeanee - 1'21.570
10. WingedBeast1968 - 1'21.630
11. Chronos-GTS - 1'21.634
12. SelfMutilation - 1'21.652
13. nemoh - 1'21.667
14. Steve-o-tron - 1'21.671
15. GTP_Stervisiov - 1'21.706
16. GTGENIUS1982 - 1'21.714
17. theewar - 1'21.735
18. GTP_JohnnyD - 1'21.746
19. GTP_Ren-Tec - 1'21.788
20. digitalmovement - 1'21.807
I just watched Andy's new time and he indeed is using the clutch and first to do so. Congrats to him for adapting so well and quickly, he could probably get down to a fastyfast time and also stand a chance against the best in the next stage.
PD seem to use the G25 at demos, but could they make people use the new DFGT with just two pedals for the next stage.
- 344
- GTP_BikeShorts
Got my G25 today.
What I've found is that I can't really use paddles/sequential with it when I have my shoes on - which I prefer since the brake has a lot more resistance than my previous pedals. My left foot can't fit on the brake pedal when my right is near the accelerator without the clutch getting in the way. I suppose it makes me use the H-box though, lol. Only really had about an hours practice, but I got down to what I was lapping yesterday with my old GT3 wheel and paddles. This was without heel-toe. I'm not sure if it's the 900* rotation or the H-box but something has definitely improved so my times are more consistent, it's only a matter of time before I get below what I put yesterday (which was a fluke lap).
What I've found is that I can't really use paddles/sequential with it when I have my shoes on - which I prefer since the brake has a lot more resistance than my previous pedals. My left foot can't fit on the brake pedal when my right is near the accelerator without the clutch getting in the way. I suppose it makes me use the H-box though, lol. Only really had about an hours practice, but I got down to what I was lapping yesterday with my old GT3 wheel and paddles. This was without heel-toe. I'm not sure if it's the 900* rotation or the H-box but something has definitely improved so my times are more consistent, it's only a matter of time before I get below what I put yesterday (which was a fluke lap).
- 23
- ProblemSolver
Hi profi!
I've got my EU-version last friday and I'm now 150 laps into Eiger and have
done a 1'22:718 with the pad.
I guess, you will be proven wrong here (in the end). Two laps after my
fastest one I had a -0.5s on the clock after passing the bridge, staying
close behind l1a2r3's ghost. Unfortunately, I didn't managed the first
turn after the tunnel.
Up until now, I had no single perfect lap were I could clue it all together.
Btw; I don't mean teH perfect lap.
I'm now going for a low 22, high 21. 👍
(definition: ghost := l1a2r3-1'20.469-ghost)
Are you sure you managed to overtake the ghost? Have you seen
the ghost in one of the mirrors?
Yep.
I can also manage to stay up with the ghost, but only up until corner exit.
He can better accelerate down the straight without loosing traction.
Nice!
Me, too. This left-right turn is really about proper weight shifting and tight
acceleration.
Quite interesting, I can drive through this turn slightly faster then l1a2r3! ...
... And I can keep the distance, at least.
For me, this is the trickiest part so far (but not the hardest part). The exit
of the left-turn is somewhat difficult for me in managing the weight of the
car by proper steering. From the replay of l1a2r3's ghost one can clearly
see that he profits from the higher steering-resolution of the wheel. I can't
do this kind of steering with the pad.
The double-right is not a real problem for me. You only have to shift/throw
the weight of the car properly to the outside on entering the second
right-turn.
I get into 4th gear within the jump.
Despite there are some advantages in using the clutch, for me, it breaks
down to the following; acceleration and steering.
Further, a wheel has a much higher resolution (sampling rate) for the
paddles as well as for the steering wheel itself! A high resolution for the
paddles gives a better control over acceleration out of a turn. A high
resolution steering wheel allows for a smooth turn-in and a better control
of weight shifting. On the contrary, the pad's shoulder-buttons /
analog-sticks have a rather low resolution.
(The next issue should be its own thread.)
PS3 <-> pad/wheel input-lag issues
I assume that a wheel has an even smaller input-lag compared to a pad.
Input-lag: "the time required until a change is recognized", a.k.a.
on-the-button-feel. LCDs and TFTs do also suffer from input-lag, in the
range of 20 - 60ms (~ 1 - 4 frames at 60Hz). Most large LCDs have a
very high input-lag (~ 100ms = ~ 6 frames at 60 Hz). Adding it all
together gives a rather large input-lag in total. A lag of 60ms is already
quite too high. 20ms is acceptable. 1 frame = 16.6ms at 60Hz.
I do play on a 22" TFT featuring a TN panel. TN panels have the smallest
input-lag along all known panels (like PVA, IPS, etc.). There exits some
methods to measure the input-lag. However, I can now judge the input-lag
just by inspection. Simply move your mouse and estimate the elapsed
time until the pointer starts to move. Using my PS3Linux, I get a nearly
instantaneous feedback (around 20ms). Down at the PS3-GameOS the
value increases to an estimated value of 60ms by using the pad within
the browser! Subtracting the 20ms from my TN panel leaves around
40ms for the pad <-> PS3!!! wtf?
I guess, a wheel has an input-lag of around < 20ms. It would be worth
to measure this!!!
Why is the input-lag so important, anyways?
Well, if you want to react to something happening on the screen, then,
depending on the input device (pad) and the output device (panel),
the reaction you take kicks in (in my case) about 60ms later! Now
compute the distance one travels at a speed of 200km/h within 60ms.
Do it!
Controlling a car at/from high speeds is therefor very difficult, if you have
a large input-lag. Believe it or not, playing on a large LCD (with a pad) is a
clear disadvantage!
There is a workaround for hardcore gamers! Do it old-school! A CRT-TV
does not suffer from input-lag! Hence, 0ms delay from the output device.
A lot of hardcore gamers are playing on CRTs. However, a 1080p CRT
is rather difficult to find.
I bet that racing on a CRT, using a wheel, is physically the fastest/best
solution to nail down the fastest time in GT5P due to 0ms input-lag from
the CRT and only about < 20ms (I guess) input-lag from the wheel.
Using a large LCD and the sixaxis pad is the worst case scenario for playing
GT5P. I'm somewhere in the middle of all this mess. I can really feel the
60ms input-lag from my pad + panel (upon steering and acceleration)!!!
It's very difficult to counter act this. However, I will plug-in my old Sony
CRT on my PS3 within the next week to test it all out, to check out the
pad's input-lag, at least.
So, now you know what to do!
I have a lot more hints on how to improve the lap-times within GT5P
(including; using the pad right). But ... you know ... I don't can give
away all my secrets! I need to get into the Top-20, at least!
Hahaha ... yeah! Lets do it!
For the sake of completeness; The input-lag of the DS3 controller
might have been improved, but I don't know.
The pad will always be an issue! Look at the things I've written above;
input-lag, resolution, etc.. It's much better to put the effort into a device
which is worth the effort! teH wheel! A high resolution and nearly
zero-input-lag pad would be nice, but it would be too expensive.
C'mon ... get over it.
I've got my EU-version last friday and I'm now 150 laps into Eiger and have
done a 1'22:718 with the pad.
I guess, you will be proven wrong here (in the end). Two laps after my
fastest one I had a -0.5s on the clock after passing the bridge, staying
close behind l1a2r3's ghost. Unfortunately, I didn't managed the first
turn after the tunnel.
Up until now, I had no single perfect lap were I could clue it all together.
Btw; I don't mean teH perfect lap.
I'm now going for a low 22, high 21. 👍
(definition: ghost := l1a2r3-1'20.469-ghost)
Are you sure you managed to overtake the ghost? Have you seen
the ghost in one of the mirrors?
Yep.
I can also manage to stay up with the ghost, but only up until corner exit.
He can better accelerate down the straight without loosing traction.
Nice!
Me, too. This left-right turn is really about proper weight shifting and tight
acceleration.
Quite interesting, I can drive through this turn slightly faster then l1a2r3! ...
... And I can keep the distance, at least.
For me, this is the trickiest part so far (but not the hardest part). The exit
of the left-turn is somewhat difficult for me in managing the weight of the
car by proper steering. From the replay of l1a2r3's ghost one can clearly
see that he profits from the higher steering-resolution of the wheel. I can't
do this kind of steering with the pad.
The double-right is not a real problem for me. You only have to shift/throw
the weight of the car properly to the outside on entering the second
right-turn.
I get into 4th gear within the jump.
Despite there are some advantages in using the clutch, for me, it breaks
down to the following; acceleration and steering.
Further, a wheel has a much higher resolution (sampling rate) for the
paddles as well as for the steering wheel itself! A high resolution for the
paddles gives a better control over acceleration out of a turn. A high
resolution steering wheel allows for a smooth turn-in and a better control
of weight shifting. On the contrary, the pad's shoulder-buttons /
analog-sticks have a rather low resolution.
(The next issue should be its own thread.)
PS3 <-> pad/wheel input-lag issues
I assume that a wheel has an even smaller input-lag compared to a pad.
Input-lag: "the time required until a change is recognized", a.k.a.
on-the-button-feel. LCDs and TFTs do also suffer from input-lag, in the
range of 20 - 60ms (~ 1 - 4 frames at 60Hz). Most large LCDs have a
very high input-lag (~ 100ms = ~ 6 frames at 60 Hz). Adding it all
together gives a rather large input-lag in total. A lag of 60ms is already
quite too high. 20ms is acceptable. 1 frame = 16.6ms at 60Hz.
I do play on a 22" TFT featuring a TN panel. TN panels have the smallest
input-lag along all known panels (like PVA, IPS, etc.). There exits some
methods to measure the input-lag. However, I can now judge the input-lag
just by inspection. Simply move your mouse and estimate the elapsed
time until the pointer starts to move. Using my PS3Linux, I get a nearly
instantaneous feedback (around 20ms). Down at the PS3-GameOS the
value increases to an estimated value of 60ms by using the pad within
the browser! Subtracting the 20ms from my TN panel leaves around
40ms for the pad <-> PS3!!! wtf?
I guess, a wheel has an input-lag of around < 20ms. It would be worth
to measure this!!!
Why is the input-lag so important, anyways?
Well, if you want to react to something happening on the screen, then,
depending on the input device (pad) and the output device (panel),
the reaction you take kicks in (in my case) about 60ms later! Now
compute the distance one travels at a speed of 200km/h within 60ms.
Do it!
Controlling a car at/from high speeds is therefor very difficult, if you have
a large input-lag. Believe it or not, playing on a large LCD (with a pad) is a
clear disadvantage!
There is a workaround for hardcore gamers! Do it old-school! A CRT-TV
does not suffer from input-lag! Hence, 0ms delay from the output device.
A lot of hardcore gamers are playing on CRTs. However, a 1080p CRT
is rather difficult to find.
I bet that racing on a CRT, using a wheel, is physically the fastest/best
solution to nail down the fastest time in GT5P due to 0ms input-lag from
the CRT and only about < 20ms (I guess) input-lag from the wheel.
Using a large LCD and the sixaxis pad is the worst case scenario for playing
GT5P. I'm somewhere in the middle of all this mess. I can really feel the
60ms input-lag from my pad + panel (upon steering and acceleration)!!!
It's very difficult to counter act this. However, I will plug-in my old Sony
CRT on my PS3 within the next week to test it all out, to check out the
pad's input-lag, at least.
So, now you know what to do!
I have a lot more hints on how to improve the lap-times within GT5P
(including; using the pad right). But ... you know ... I don't can give
away all my secrets! I need to get into the Top-20, at least!
Hahaha ... yeah! Lets do it!
For the sake of completeness; The input-lag of the DS3 controller
might have been improved, but I don't know.
The pad will always be an issue! Look at the things I've written above;
input-lag, resolution, etc.. It's much better to put the effort into a device
which is worth the effort! teH wheel! A high resolution and nearly
zero-input-lag pad would be nice, but it would be too expensive.
C'mon ... get over it.
- 20,145
- Australia
- VIPERGTS01
I guess Clutch helps out Heal and toe technique
Yeah, though the main advantage (in outright lap time) in using the clutch on the G25 is the shifting speed, when the clutch is not enabled in the 350Z in GT5P does a kind of 'autoclutch' mode where shifting speeds are slower and delayed (as some have complained about). When I drive manual cars (in GT5P e.g 350Z) I always use the cluch and on ultra quick laps I quickshift or even flat shift sometimes which is much faster than when the game does the clutching. I think after a great lap of quick shifting using the clutch may make a small difference in the end compared to a DFP or other wheel.
Timppaq
Premium
- 5,137
- Helsinki
- GTP_Timppaq
Finally good lap with DFP: 1´21.203 --> 1st (FI) ..I can still see a sub 1´21 with the DFP, but that´ll be it. At least with my skills... 
FI:
2nd: 1´21.355
10th: 1´22.370
20th: 1´22.639
Don´t you just wish you were also living in Finland.. lol.
-Timppaq
p.s. Thanks Sphinx for the video, made me realize a few things..
..I can still see a sub 1´21 with the DFP, but that´ll be it. At least with my skills... FI:
2nd: 1´21.355
10th: 1´22.370
20th: 1´22.639
Don´t you just wish you were also living in Finland.. lol.
-Timppaq
p.s. Thanks Sphinx for the video, made me realize a few things..
- 23
- ProblemSolver
Finally good lap with DFP: 1´21.203 --> 1st (FI)
FI:
2nd: 1´21.355
10th: 1´22.370
20th: 1´22.639
Don´t you just wish you were also living in Finland.. lol. ...
Hahaha ... lol. No!
(I can imagine to life in Finland, Norway or Sweden. Yes!)
- 589
- GTP_Profi
- Whats this?
@problemsolver:
Thank you for the feedback on my analysis...
You are absolutely right in (nearly) all your statements. What you describe is mostly the same as I have expierenced for myself.
I know about the input lag...
I know about CRTs having less input lag...
I know that input resolution is better with a wheel / pedals..
I know about the advantages of a wheel when it comes to sensitive steering..
But:
I am sure a good "pad" player would have a chance to compete against a "wheel" player if there wasnt the following disadvantages which are simply software related:
In doing a further research on these "disadvantages" and reading through all those replys to my complaint I now know that it is not only the clutch which gives an advantage to their users but its also the H-Shifters.
Let me explain:
Advantage No. 1 for wheel users without using the clutch but using the H-shifter / sequential shifter (compared to a pad):
(shifting goes 2nd - Neutral - 3rd)
Revalations do NOT drop inbetween shifting.
Next gear switches in at likely higher RPM.
Shifting time is less.
Result is simply an improved acceleration performance of the car.
Advantage No. 2 for wheel users using H-shifter / sequential shifter AND also the clutch:
Revalations raise up inbetween shifting.
Next gear switches in at still more RPM.
Result is an even more improved acceleration performance of the car.
Remember GT4: There were options for enhancing / tuning your car with such things like 3-Disc clutches which one could use for faster shifting and therewith enhancing your cars acceleration performance.
The use of these things were independent of the used controller.
They did improve your cars performance no matter if you were using a pad or wheel including clutch or H-shifter.
With GT5P one CAN improve the cars performance by using a different input device (controller). That is what for my understanding should NOT be the case.
Let one use a clutch / H-shifter or anything...
..but dont improve the cars performance by using this device.
If a non tuned 350Z will need 0.2 seconds to switch gears:
Let this specific car take 0.2 seconds to switch gears no matter what !
If a wheel / clutch user is able to assign the functionality of a clutch to his device: Let the pad user do the same ! (to a button for example..)
Arrrrghhhh..................
Problemsolver, could you please upload your replay of your 1'22:718 with the pad for studying ?
And Problemsolver....
You will never do a 1.21.xxx with your pad...
Thank you for the feedback on my analysis...
You are absolutely right in (nearly) all your statements. What you describe is mostly the same as I have expierenced for myself.
I know about the input lag...
I know about CRTs having less input lag...
I know that input resolution is better with a wheel / pedals..
I know about the advantages of a wheel when it comes to sensitive steering..
But:
I am sure a good "pad" player would have a chance to compete against a "wheel" player if there wasnt the following disadvantages which are simply software related:
In doing a further research on these "disadvantages" and reading through all those replys to my complaint I now know that it is not only the clutch which gives an advantage to their users but its also the H-Shifters.
Let me explain:
Advantage No. 1 for wheel users without using the clutch but using the H-shifter / sequential shifter (compared to a pad):
(shifting goes 2nd - Neutral - 3rd)
Revalations do NOT drop inbetween shifting.
Next gear switches in at likely higher RPM.
Shifting time is less.
Result is simply an improved acceleration performance of the car.
Advantage No. 2 for wheel users using H-shifter / sequential shifter AND also the clutch:
Revalations raise up inbetween shifting.
Next gear switches in at still more RPM.
Result is an even more improved acceleration performance of the car.
Remember GT4: There were options for enhancing / tuning your car with such things like 3-Disc clutches which one could use for faster shifting and therewith enhancing your cars acceleration performance.
The use of these things were independent of the used controller.
They did improve your cars performance no matter if you were using a pad or wheel including clutch or H-shifter.
With GT5P one CAN improve the cars performance by using a different input device (controller). That is what for my understanding should NOT be the case.
Let one use a clutch / H-shifter or anything...
..but dont improve the cars performance by using this device.
If a non tuned 350Z will need 0.2 seconds to switch gears:
Let this specific car take 0.2 seconds to switch gears no matter what !
If a wheel / clutch user is able to assign the functionality of a clutch to his device: Let the pad user do the same ! (to a button for example..)
Arrrrghhhh..................
Problemsolver, could you please upload your replay of your 1'22:718 with the pad for studying ?
And Problemsolver....
You will never do a 1.21.xxx with your pad...
Minium, how is that G25 doing?
Oh yes, my G25 is doing pretty well, and congratulations for your nice laptime with DFP.
I also downloaded yesterday that sphinx's ghost lap file, but i couldn't get it to function. Winzip says the file is invalid archive?...
So i'm still missing a decent (=fast enough) ghost file to improve my laptime. Battling with my own fastest ghost is damn hard. It would be easier if the ghost lap were a bit faster than my target time.
But i'm going to try yours tomorrow ;-)
- 23
- ProblemSolver
It reads ProblemSolver.
Thanx! Yep.
Absolutely right!
"Arrrrghhhh..................", too!
Things will be sorted out once GT5 (GT5P-update?) is released, I expect.
And I strongly assume PD reads all the stuff written here!
Uhhh ... this would expose my pad "settings" ... I can't do this by now.
We germans do quite well on the leaderboard, and you know, every
tenth-of-a-second counts.
Well, I found a way to improve (?) on acceleration control (in not loosing too much traction) which becomes
clearly visible from the replay. Using this technique I was able to get a
-0.5s on the bridge with respect to my current fastest time, i.e. 1'22:718.
And since I haven't managed it after the tunnel, there are some more
improvements to gain, to add up the time to ...
... 1.21.xxx?
However, I don't know if this technique really works out. But you can
have the replay once I've broken teH pad-barrier.
I really expect to lap a 1.21.xxx with the pad. I have a good feeling about
it, at least, since I haven't done a perfect lap with my settings, yet.
My next racing session starts on tuesday next week.
Sphinx
Staff Emeritus
- 6,724
- England
- GTP_Sphinx
Just checked the UK rankings and I've been dropped into 4th place by another G25 user. 
I'll try and improve my time on the DFP over the next day or two and then compare my best DFP time with a good session using the G25 but without using the clutch. It should be interesting to see how they compare. 👍
I'll try and improve my time on the DFP over the next day or two and then compare my best DFP time with a good session using the G25 but without using the clutch. It should be interesting to see how they compare. 👍
- 175
Just checked the UK rankings and I've been dropped into 4th place by another G25 user.
I'll try and improve my time on the DFP over the next day or two and then compare my best DFP time with a good session using the G25 but without using the clutch. It should be interesting to see how they compare. 👍
Could you post the difference in times between the DFP and the G25 please
- 761
- neoseiken
- chromatic9
GT Academy Top 20 UK & Ireland
Track: The Eiger Nordwand Forward
Car: Nissan Fairlady Z Version S '07 (Non-Tuned)
Driving Physics: Professional
Tyres: Normal N1
1. Andy_616 - 1'20.942 - G25 with Clutch
2. PrudentBear - 1'21.230 - G25 with Paddle Shift
3. Oldbeanee - 1'21.239 - G25 with Clutch
4. GTP_Sphinx - 1'21.278 - DFP
5. rapid46 - 1'21.422
6. GTP_Mr_P - 1'21.484 - DFP
7. KarlRacer - 1'21.499
8. Chronos-GTS - 1'21.500 - G25 with Paddle Shift
9. No46_TheDoctor - 1'21.536
10. mogus-3000 - 1'21.554
11. WingedBeast1968 - 1'21.630
12. SelfMutilation - 1'21.652
13. nemoh - 1'21.667
14. Steve-o-tron - 1'21.671
15. GTP_Stervisiov - 1'21.706
16. GTGENIUS1982 - 1'21.714
17. theewar - 1'21.735
18. GTP_JohnnyD - 1'21.746
19. GTP_Ren-Tec - 1'21.788
20. digitalmovement - 1'21.807
Track: The Eiger Nordwand Forward
Car: Nissan Fairlady Z Version S '07 (Non-Tuned)
Driving Physics: Professional
Tyres: Normal N1
1. Andy_616 - 1'20.942 - G25 with Clutch
2. PrudentBear - 1'21.230 - G25 with Paddle Shift
3. Oldbeanee - 1'21.239 - G25 with Clutch
4. GTP_Sphinx - 1'21.278 - DFP
5. rapid46 - 1'21.422
6. GTP_Mr_P - 1'21.484 - DFP
7. KarlRacer - 1'21.499
8. Chronos-GTS - 1'21.500 - G25 with Paddle Shift
9. No46_TheDoctor - 1'21.536
10. mogus-3000 - 1'21.554
11. WingedBeast1968 - 1'21.630
12. SelfMutilation - 1'21.652
13. nemoh - 1'21.667
14. Steve-o-tron - 1'21.671
15. GTP_Stervisiov - 1'21.706
16. GTGENIUS1982 - 1'21.714
17. theewar - 1'21.735
18. GTP_JohnnyD - 1'21.746
19. GTP_Ren-Tec - 1'21.788
20. digitalmovement - 1'21.807
- 27,257
- United Kingdom
- 761
- neoseiken
- chromatic9
Yes that would be interesting considering how ingrained this trial is by now
I would of thought it would be marginal without clutch. Also surprised sphinx that you haven't bought a G25 until now.
On Suzuka in spec I, I'd download the top time and see the advantage between shifts with people keeping their foot to the floor while quickly shifting with the clutch enabled and the flash of N Neutral in between and disengagement allowing higher revs.
- 23
- ProblemSolver
Sphinx
Staff Emeritus
- 6,724
- England
- GTP_Sphinx
