GT or GT40

[Gashlycrumb]

So I am guessing that Ford made a mistake when it released this press release then?

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_display.cfm?release=23745

"40 years ago, Ford made motorsport history at the 1966 Le Mans 24-hour race. That event was a momentous result for Ford Motor Company, and history has shown that it has become one of the most important chapters in the saga of the world's most famous endurance race. This year, at the Le Mans Classic 2006, today's Ford is saluting the heroes and unsung heroes of that day, and the incredible legacy of a car that captured the imagination of generations of enthusiasts – the Ford GT40."

 

[1X83Z]

This whole thing is ridiculous. The rumor is clearly proven wrong on Wikipedia and Holden is sticking to it because he's heard it years ago and has probably been saying it for all those years despite essentially zero proof except a couple vehicles badged with 'Ford GT' on the side.

Look!!! A new Ford GT with 'GT40' on the side!! It must be a GT40. But wait, those don't exist.

 

[McLaren]

This whole thing is ridiculous. The rumor is clearly proven wrong on Wikipedia and Holden is sticking to it because he's heard it years ago and has probably been saying it for all those years despite essentially zero proof except a couple vehicles badged with 'Ford GT' on the side.

Look!!! A new Ford GT with 'GT40' on the side!! It must be a GT40. But wait, those don't exist.

IMHO, the 2005 Ford GT didn't really live up to the fame and success of the GT40, even if it didn't actually race in anything but the Super GT or FIA GT3.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

how about this then

In the book "The Ford That Beat Ferrari" by John S Allen and Gordon J Jones, they included a press release announcing the new Ford GT.
The title line of the anouncement is "The Ford G.T. Ready to go racing-at 200 MPH."
In the body it says "Only 40 inches high and 13 feet long...." They called the car the Ford GT as they used Eric Broadley's Lola GT as a development mule for their GT. Through it's first years of racing, 1964 and 1965, it had been known as the Ford GT with 'Ford' in the rocker panel stripes. When it was decided to put the car into production, in August 1964, that's when it became known as the GT40. In the 1965 racing season when Shelby took over the GT race program from Ford, the wording in the rocker stripes say "Ford G.T." In the 1965 Le Mans race, the MkII ran with Ford in the rocker stripes. In LM 1966 and 1967, the cars ran simply with Ford either in stripes for the 66 MkIIs or below the "C" side stripes on the MkIVs and MkIIBs.
I've seen pictures of MkIs run by independents with Ford and the Union Jack in the side stripes, the Ford oval in the stripes, Ford, and no Ford in any form in the stripes and even no stripes. So the picture with GT40 may have been either the original purchaser of the car's style of stripe or perhaps the restorer's. But every factory run Ford GT has had either Ford or Ford GT in the rocker stripes.

Factory cars.
1964 Nurburgring:

1965 Daytona:

1966 Le Mans:

1967 le Mans:

An independent 1968 Le Mans:

 

[Perfect Balance]

I've added a new quote and took some old ones out, please read the new information.

 

[McLaren]

Oh my, you quoted a book.

 

[McLaren]

I've added a new quote and took some old ones out, please read the new information.

Yes, the original intention was to call the car the Ford GT. But later on, Ford went ahead and recognized it as the GT40. Only by coincidence that once they started producing the chassis under the GT 40 P code, that they started becoming extremely successful in their racing.

 

[Gashlycrumb]

SO by your argument it is called a Ford GT because some run with GT written on the side? Does that mean it is just a Ford when it only has Ford in the stripe and poor old number 12 there is a car with no-name???

Oh I forgot it also has Ford GT on the steering wheel badge. The 350Z Steering wheel just has Z on the hub, that doesn't mean that the car is called "Z"

Personally I'll stick to believing what Ford themselves wrote (ie Ford GT40 on the brochure cover and their own press releases that refer to it as the Ford GT40)

 

[Perfect Balance]

This thread is moving quick, so I'll put my new information in this post.

True racing historians and enthusiasts know the legend behind the name of the Ford GT, which later became nicknamed GT40 in reference to the car’s overall height. The original race program was conceived by Henry Ford II as after his attempt to purchase Ferrari fell through. Ford turned his attention to building his own program. The program’s roots can be traced back to England where, in 1963 Ford’s team, under the direction of Roy Lunn, began work on an all-new Ford racecar, loosely based on the Eric Broadley’s Lola GT. In April of 1964, the car, proudly bearing the name Ford GT was presented to the press for the first time. It was at Le Mans in June of 1964 that people began referring to the sleek racer as GT40. In its first year, all the Ford GTs retired from the race. Ford hired Carroll Shelby in 1964 to oversee the program. His first move was to install a 427 cubic inch engine in the car, which became known as the Ford GT40 Mark II. In February 1965, Ken Miles and Lloyd Ruby drove the Mark II to its first win at the Daytona 2000-km race breaking almost every established track record. The cars went on to their famous 1-2-3 victory at Le Mans in 1966 and dominated the endurance racing world for four straight years.

Throughout the years and despite the GT40 nickname and various versions including Mark II, III, IV and the less known and aesthetically best-forgotten “Mirage” models, at the insistence of Henry Ford II, the cars continued to the nomenclature “Ford GT” or just “Ford” on their body-sides and steering wheel hub.

The legendary Ford GT racing program culminated in June of 1969 with its last victory at Le Mans. Some cars continued to compete after 1969, but the Ford factory program came to a close. Various attempts to keep the flame burning in the form of newly available cars built from spare parts and replica parts continued through the 1970s to present, including a line of cars known as GT40 Mark Vs built by an aftermarket company, which even picked up on the chassis numbering sequence. No Ford badging appeared on these cars. The side stripes carried the name “GT40” or a “GT40 MkV” badge on the wheels.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

SO by your argument it is called a Ford GT because some run with GT written on the side? Does that mean it is just a Ford when it only has Ford in the stripe and poor old number 12 there is a car with no-name???

Oh I forgot it also has Ford GT on the steering wheel badge. The 350Z Steering wheel just has Z on the hub, that doesn't mean that the car is called "Z"

Personally I'll stick to believing what Ford themselves wrote (ie Ford GT40 on the brochure cover and their own press releases that refer to it as the Ford GT40)

no my arguement lies in that it WAS called the ford gt and ford DID call it the ford gt in their orginal press releases

 

[McLaren]

no my arguement lies in that it WAS called the ford gt and ford DID call it the ford gt in their orginal press releases

Then why is the release titled Ford GT40?

 

[1X83Z]

IMHO, the 2005 Ford GT didn't really live up to the fame and success of the GT40, even if it didn't actually race in anything but the Super GT or FIA GT3.

I dunno - I agree it's not as well-known or as spectacular a success, but I love them. They really look mean on the roads - those wheel arches over the rear wheels are unlike anything else on any other supercar in its price range. On looks alone, I'd have a GT over an F430 in a heartbeat.

That said, it may just be because I never see GTs - six versus 21 F430s.

 

[Perfect Balance]

I'd like to add that a lot of car advertisements and such use a car's nickname or variations of the real name, much like Nissan frequently uses "Z" when talking about thier 350z. Pictures of advertisments and stuff do not qualify then, at least to me. So far there has only one place that specifically said that the car was called the GT40, and that was in an article that anyone in the world can change themselves. Chassis codes don't mean much, as my car's chassis code is Ek4, which isn't anywhere in the name.

On the other hand, I've found numerous things that specifically say that the GT40 was a nickname and it was called the Ford GT.

EDIT: My first quote was from Media.Ford.com, a pretty reliable source.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Then why is the release titled Ford GT40?

no it was titled "The Ford That Beat Ferrari" please read the post correctly

 

[Gashlycrumb]

I'd like to add that a lot of car advertisements and such use a car's nickname or variations of the real name, much like Nissan frequently uses "Z" when talking about thier 350z. Pictures of advertisments and stuff do not qualify then, at least to me. So far there has only one place that specifically said that the car was called the GT40, and that was in an article that anyone in the world can change themselves. Chassis codes don't mean much, as my car's chassis code is Ek4, which isn't anywhere in the name.

On the other hand, I've found numerous things that specifically say that the GT40 was a nickname and it was called the Ford GT.

EDIT: My first quote was from Media.Ford.com, a pretty reliable source.

My quote is also from Media.Ford.com you may notice the paragraph:

"Seen as the American challenge to Ferrari, the Ford GT40 was a truly international project which underscored the determination and global ambitions of Ford Motor Company and its Chairman, Henry Ford II. Its name was derived from a simple fact – the sculpted and purposeful endurance racing car stood just 40 inches tall."

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_display.cfm?release=23745

 

[McLaren]

I'd like to add that a lot of car advertisements and such use a car's nickname or variations of the real name, much like Nissan frequently uses "Z" when talking about thier 350z. Pictures of advertisments and stuff do not qualify then, at least to me. So far there has only one place that specifically said that the car was called the GT40, and that was in an article that anyone in the world can change themselves. Chassis codes don't mean much, as my car's chassis code is Ek4, which isn't anywhere in the name.

On the other hand, I've found numerous things that specifically say that the GT40 was a nickname and it was called the Ford GT.

EDIT: My first quote was from Media.Ford.com, a pretty reliable source.

We've already a discussion of codes. The GT40's refer to its name.

no it was titled "The Ford That Beat Ferrari" please read the post correctly

No, that's the title of the book.

But that still was released at the same time of the Prototypes.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Someone please post an article that says that the Ford GT was actually called a Ford GT40. I have one specific article that specifically says that the GT40 was only a nickname, by the automaker in the press release of the new Ford GT.

Frankly, if Ford themselves said that GT40 was only a nickname, that's enough proof for me.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

No, that's the title of the book.

But that still was released at the same time of the Prototypes.

read it again if you think it was about prototypes cause it clearly goes up to 1965 when shelby took over and still called them GT's.

 

[McLaren]

Someone please post an article that says that the Ford GT was actually called a Ford GT40. I have one specific article that specifically says that the GT40 was only a nickname, by the automaker in the press release of the new Ford GT.

Frankly, if Ford themselves said that GT40 was only a nickname, that's enough proof for me.

And Ford's media that was posted by Gash called it a GT40.

 

[McLaren]

read it again if you think it was about prototypes cause it clearly goes up to 1965 when shelby took over and still called them GT's.

Then it's not a press release if it's talking about 1965 and afterwards.

As far as I see it, you only gave the name of Ford's press release, which was given out in 1964 during the era of the GT prototypes. After all that is crap you're writing from the book (in your own words, mind you) which doesn't mean anything because other books will write it out as GT40.

And you continuously dodge my questions.
Why does the brochure title itself for a Ford GT40?
Why does Ford suddenly change the chassis names to GT 40 P unless they recognize it as a GT40?
Why does their museum call the car a GT40?

You're just jumping over the questions, and quoting crap that came out before 1966 which is exactly when the Prototypes were out.

Yes, the car was originally intended to be called the Ford GT, however, the nickname stuck from the fans, and Ford decided to call it the GT40 after the 11 Prototypes.

Only the original 11 prototypes are Ford GTs. Everything else afterwards is a Ford GT40.

 

[1X83Z]

Then it's not a press release if it's talking about 1965 and afterwards.

As far as I see it, you only gave the name of Ford's press release, which was given out in 1964 during the era of the GT prototypes. After all that is crap you're writing from the book (in your own words, mind you) which doesn't mean anything because other books will write it out as GT40.

And you continuously dodge my questions.
Why does the brochure title itself for a Ford GT40?
Why does Ford suddenly change the chassis names to GT 40 P unless they recognize it as a GT40?
Why does their museum call the car a GT40?

You're just jumping over the questions, and quoting crap that came out before 1966 which is exactly when the Prototypes were out.

Yes, the car was originally intended to be called the Ford GT, however, the nickname stuck from the fans, and Ford decided to call it the GT40 after the 11 Prototypes.

Only the original 11 prototypes are Ford GTs. Everything else afterwards is a Ford GT40.

Done and done. Nothing else needs to be said.

 

[Perfect Balance]

And Ford's media that was posted by Gash called it a GT40.

Called it the GT40. When you said GT, I think new, when you say GT40, I think old. I think someone that involved in Ford would actually use the nickname, both for easier reference and from being around all the history of the original Ford GT.

My qoute specifically says that "GT40" was only a nickname. Directly referring to the exact topic we are talking about. Posting simple quotes have no garantee that the person talking doesn't use the nickname.

Heres the link: http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=13569

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Ford decided to call it the GT40 after the 11 Prototypes.

Only the original 11 prototypes are Ford GTs. Everything else afterwards is a Ford GT40.

prove it then as like you said it WAS called the ford gt and the nickname stuck by fans,did it ever occur they then took that into the marketing of the car which has been suggested and kept the GT name.

no matter what you say or come up with there have been several facts showing it was never called GT40 if it was then they would have owned the rights to the name and not needed to by them off someone.

 

[Gashlycrumb]

The timeline for the new Ford GT:

1963: Rebuffed in a bid to buy Ferrari, Henry Ford II decides that Ford Motor will build a car to race in the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

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April 1964: Ford GT is unveiled.

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June 1964: Ford enters 3 cars in the 24 Hours of Le Mans, where the GT40 moniker emerges. All 3 fail to finish.

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Fall 1964: Ford hires Carroll Shelby to head the GT effort.

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June 1966: The Ford GT40 finishes 1-2-3 at Le Mans. It wins the race again the next 3 years.

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1969: Ford drops GT40 racing.

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1981: Safir Engineering Ltd. begins building replica vehicles.

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1985: Safir registers the trademark for the GT40 name.

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1999: Trademark is transferred to Safir GT40 Spares Ltd.

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January 2002: Ford unveils the GT40 concept car at the Detroit auto show.

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February 2002: Ford commits to the production car.

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October 2002: Ford says the production car will be named the Ford GT.

 

[Perfect Balance]

I don't see what the disagreement is anymore. Quotes have a high chance that the Nickname was used, and I linked a to an article that Specifically refers to our topic, and says that the "GT40" was a nickname. Until someone posts a quote from ford that specifically says gt40 was not "just a nickname" then it's settled.

Ford officials' quotes directly on our topic > Just quotes, since there's a high chance someone from ford would use the nickname.

EDIT: Thank you Gashlycrumb.

 

[McLaren]

Called it the GT40. When you said GT, I think new, when you say GT40, I think old. I think someone that involved in Ford would actually use the nickname, both for easier reference and from being around that history at your job.

My qoute specifically says that "GT40" was only a nickname. Directly referring to the exact topic we are talking about. Posting simple quotes have no garantee that the person talking doesn't use the nickname.

Yes, GT40 was originally a nickname during, again, the 11 prototypes' era. However.

By 1966, so many people recognize the car as a GT40, that Ford went ahead and produced it as a GT40 under the new codes, GT 40 P, in which P meant Production.
The 11 Prototypes as said, are nothing but prototypes, test beds that Ford raced to figure out how to win at LeMans. These are the only Ford GTs.

It is just by pure coincidence, though, that once Ford finally started producing the GT40, they won LeMans. The winner was chassis GT40P/1046, the famous #2 followed by GT40P/1015 and GT40P/1016.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

The timeline for the new Ford GT:


1985: Safir registers the trademark for the GT40 name.

so if ford really did call it the gt40 wouldnt they have had the name gt40 registered so that company couldnt use it or register it so in essence it that shows that it never was offically called the gt40

 

[Perfect Balance]

Yes, GT40 was originally a nickname during, again, the 11 prototypes' era. However.

By 1966, so many people recognize the car as a GT40, that Ford went ahead and produced it as a GT40 under the new codes, GT 40 P, in which P meant Production.
The 11 Prototypes as said, are nothing but prototypes, test beds that Ford raced to figure out how to win at LeMans. These are the only Ford GTs.

It is just by pure coincidence, though, that once Ford finally started producing the GT40, they won LeMans. The winner was chassis GT40P/1046, the famous #2 followed by GT40P/1015 and GT40P/1016.

Where are you getting this information from? Please provide some resources that are more valid than ford themselves, since that's what I've got.

If you can, highlight where Ford specifically said the "GT40" was not a nickname, since I can point out where Ford specifically said it was. At least then we'll be 50/50, since right now I'm way ahead.

 

[McLaren]

no matter what you say or come up with there have been several facts showing it was never called GT40 if it was then they would have owned the rights to the name and not needed to by them off someone.

Everything you have freakin' quoted in this thread has contradicted you!

The brochure you used is titled for a Ford GT40.

The only Ford GTs were chassis GT 101 to 112. These were all prototypes. In 1965, some were nicknamed Ford GT40s. Because in 1966 the name was so popular now, Ford decided to call it the GT40.

That is the only reason Ford changed the chassis codes.

Yes, it was INTENDED to be a Ford GT, but in the END, it was recognized as a GT40.

Do NOT ask me to prove anything. I have sat here and constantly given out chassis codes and obvious proof while you quote articles that contradict what you're using them for, and use the steering wheel and liveries as proof.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Everything you have freakin' quoted in this thread has contradicted you!

The brochure you used is titled for a Ford GT40.

The only Ford GTs were chassis GT 101 to 112. These were all prototypes. In 1965, some were nicknamed Ford GT40s. Because in 1966 the name was so popular now, Ford decided to call it the GT40.

That is the only reason Ford changed the chassis codes.

Yes, it was INTENDED to be a Ford GT, but in the END, it was recognized as a GT40.

Do NOT ask me to prove anything. I have sat here and constantly given out chassis codes and obvious proof while you quote articles that contradict what you're using them for, and use the steering wheel and liveries as proof.

Where does it say that?