GT Series Major Dissapoint in Tuning&Modifications Through Releases

[xSNAKEx]

I wouldn't have any problem with that if the game dealt with the consequences of such extreme tuning. However it already fails to do so for mildly tuned engines. Look at the "Tuner" cars, which are based on real world data. Most often they have peaky and narrow powerbands, quite unpractical for racing and even more so for normal driving, but realistic. Using "GT" parts on the normal cars instead you can instead have race-tuned engines that are as drivable as they are stock. This is without even touching the topic of mechanical damage and failures due to wear/tear/abuse or other details of engine and drivetrain dynamics.

To me, this is the major disappointment in tuning and modifications after 5 iterations of this game, not that engines can't reach 1000-1500-2000 hp. It's Its failure to innovate itself, and the lack of recovery so far on tuning dynamics after the stepback it suffered in GT3.

Ofcourse the engine behavior should match that of real life, as expected of any engine in a sim. Any difficulty in driving the car because of the characteristics of the engine should be there. OP never asked to have the engine just blow away the competition by being twice as fast or be unfairly more difficult to control than a real 1500hp skyline or supra in real life. It should be an accurate representation of how they are in real life.

However the GT5 crew need to be careful. At these Hp figures power laid down to the ground is not as efficient as a stock or engineered to match car.

I see a lot of cars with a ton of HP but when they try to lay down the full power the clutch is half slipping so it may only be laying down a smoother 600hp, until you wait a few seconds for things to catch up and even out.

They can't just plug in the new HP values with the same parameters set for stock cars in how they transfer power. Everything has to be considered

However realiabilty wise it is a bit of a diffcult one. I think this falls under the category of damage. I think even 1500hp tuned engines can be realiable if tuned right and treated right.
As for trying to replicate realism. I guess If they do have really tight clutch and power delivery then laying down the power too hard can see you snapping driveshafts etc maying this can be implemented somehow.

But i think for the moment just allowing a 1500hp tune with clutch slip torque, speed of delivery characteristics etc should be enough.

 

[alucard0712]

Okay, you will buy Supra in GT5 and mod it to death (2000hp) and WHAT'S NEXT? You will drive it for like 20 minutes then "meh! next..."

It's driving simulation-education-inspiration game and we love it for that...To me driving a given car is whole fun and core element. Modding is second and not that important.

You're talking about Forza which more about tuning and painting than GT. So I think go and play Forza - it's different game.And there is no Porsche in FM4.

 

[Tenacious D]

Toronado brings up Porsche Unleashed as an example of cars with overall performance degredation, and yet, EA in all their wisdom left it at that. You might ask why, and why hardly any other racer includes it either.

I'm not saying they shouldn't, or that Gran Turismo shouldn't. I'd be fine with it, as long as there are plenty of parameters to tweak as far as how serious I want my damage simulation to be. Remember that mashing a plastic pedal in my man-cave isn't nearly as responsive or intuitive as being in a real car. The feedback is MUCH less, no matter what game you'd care to mention. But to carry on as if all games have it and GT doesn't is one of those things that baffle me about the critics around here.

 

[DEATHSARTHE]

Race Mod



What classes? The point of tuning is be able to get a car from one class to another. It wouldn't matter if the Supra could get 2000 hp and other cars couldn't, if you're going to be competitive you need performance restrictions anyway. The issue would take care of itself.

It shouldn't take rocket science to understand what I'm saying here, so I'll reiterate and forget this instance.

Of course you could supe up a Supra and get 720hp and race stock Enzos all day... whatever, I'm sure we all do that in A-spec grinding. But that isn't going to get you anywhere online when people are driving 900-1000hp Enzos/Vipers/ZR1s/McLaren SLRs and so on... Supra is in a different league, 'nuff said. The whole intent in limiting its power was to keep it competitive with cars in its class - like other 700hp Camaros and 700hp Mustang Cobras. I mean, I don't see how I could have said this any clearer but whatever.

 

[Benjamin S]

1. What in the name of all that's holy would PD be thinking if they included a 2000+HP Supra in a game under the category "Simulation".

2. EA owns Porsche licenses. If you want them in GT series, go harass EA.

3. I would much rather have more Italian supercars or American Muscle cars than more Astons. They're fat, heavy, lack character and pretty much all the same.

1. I have stated more than once that I did not reason to include a 2000hp Supra in the game! I have clearly stated that example was purely to display that the HP of tuned Supras in real life is going up when the game is bringing the HP level down in each release. Now what is so hard to understand an example?

2. no comment

3. This is being said by someone who obviously has never driven a Aston Martin. I have driven 3 different ones, and I can say from experience that character is not something that a Aston Martin lacks. They have more character than any other car I have ever driven, and I have driven a lot of exotics. I like driving Astons regardless of what is faster, just because of their driving characteristics. They are cars that make you feel special just starting it to driving mundane tasks like in traffic going to the grocery store. They might not squeeze all the tenths of a second 0-60 times of a Ferrari, but having driven both I prefer the Aston to the Ferrari, in looks, sound and driving character. Just my opinion

 

[Benjamin S]

I find that hard to believe. Unless you'd spent untold amounts of money undoing the chassis flaws of the original set up. The JZA80 (if that's the Supra you're refering to) is what, 15 years old now. Chassis technology has evolved massively since then. There's no way you can compare it to a Ferrari 458, 430 Scuderia, Nissan GTR, Porsche 911 GT3 etc. It won't be on the same page.

Supras have never been rated for their handling. It may feel 'awesome' to you, but give it to an expert who has driven all sorts of cars (an automotive journalist for example), then tell him to compare it with the best cars under $500k and I would bet my house on it that he wouldn't compliment the Supra's handling.

Ok, so I don't know what tuning you've done, but have you driven anything over $100k, let alone $500k?

To say "my Supra handles well", or "awesome" even, then fair enough. To compare it to half-million dollar supercars... then no. Sorry.

First, your ignorant comments shows you are making up information. You don't really know how well the Supra handles yet you are intent of saying XYZ car is better because it is newer and X___ dollars. You are flat wrong. The Supra was known first and foremost as a handling car. Dan Gurney (world famous race driver) said, "The Supra Turbo might as well be the best handling car in the world" when it came out. It was so good of a handling car, one magazine said, "The Supra Turbo is so competent on the track it is boring, it will run circles around it's competition" Here go read something and verify it you don't have to take my word for it- http://www.mkiv.com/publications/index.html

It out-braked, out cornered, out accelerated everything on the road. To this day it still is close to the best in the world 18 years later to the best performance cars out there. It still today within the top 5 cars of all time braking record from 70-0 coming in 3rd at 149 feet. It pulls .98G's in a corner which BTW is more than ALL the cars you just listed and tied with the GTR. It stopped from 60 in 103 feet. That is still record setting today. It slalomed at 68.9mph. No slouch. This is for the 93-94 Supra. The 95-98 Supras were a little bit slower due to a manufacturer tire change from the raceslick like michelins to a bridgestone potenza. And we are still talking BONE STOCK>

I'd like to know what these "magical" chassis flaws are, because I think you pulled it out of you know where... Never been rated for handling? huh? It would make my day for an automotive journalist to drive one of the first car I linked and review it to some prissy high end cars. He probably would say it was one of the best drivers cars he has ever driven.

To answer your question, I have driven a lot of exotics out there, from Porsches, to Astons, Bentleys, Mercs, BMWs, Jaguars, Vipers, Vettes, ridden in Turbo Lambos, even rode in a Bugatti 16/4 once (just in a parking lot).

I still prefer the Supra for a purely fast drivers car- Best Aero, Gearing, Brakes, Stability, Engine and Tranny combo. It can fit Huge sticky tires on it too. Lets not forget it has the standing mile record at 247mph- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xr58Fq9fwo This same car ran a 7 sec quarter mile, and is driven on the street.

For a nostalgic favorite driver car for style sound and feeling hands down the Carbon Black Aston V12 Vantage was the best I have ever driven.

Made a vid of my test drive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rro7LNd3hpI

It shouldn't take rocket science to understand what I'm saying here, so I'll reiterate and forget this instance.

Of course you could supe up a Supra and get 720hp and race stock Enzos all day... whatever, I'm sure we all do that in A-spec grinding. But that isn't going to get you anywhere online when people are driving 900-1000hp Enzos/Vipers/ZR1s/McLaren SLRs and so on... Supra is in a different league, 'nuff said. The whole intent in limiting its power was to keep it competitive with cars in its class - like other 700hp Camaros and 700hp Mustang Cobras. I mean, I don't see how I could have said this any clearer but whatever.

Supra has never been muddled in the league of mustangs and camaros. It was compared by the mainstream mags to ferrari's and porsche turbos, vipers, vettes. If I was betting money on a real race of Enzos/Vipers/ZR1s/McLaren SLRs vs Supra, Even on a road course, I would put it on a Supra 10 times out of 10. Especially one I tuned the spec.

 

[Scaff]

Can we keep this thread on topic please, if you guys wish to discuss the merits of car x vs car y, then take it the the 'Cars in general' sub-forum, in which you will find plenty of people with more than enough opinions and knowledge to discuss it in detail.

For this thread, keep it to GT5 or it gets locked.


Thanks

Scaff

 

[Benjamin S]

Before enabling tuning to ridiculous hp/liter levels, PD should first include realistic modeling of the effects of performance parts on engine drivability and torque/power curves (something they somehow managed to program in GT1 and GT2), then realistic mechanical damage due to wear, tear and engine abuse. Only then, you would understand that for circuit driving the power levels you're seeking are useless, and to some extent unrealistic too.

I agree on the first part about modeling, but there are countless LeMans Race cars with more power than we are talking about here that can run a 24hr race with no said problems. Its a matter of the tuner how far he is willing to go to make a setup bulletproof. The Supra isn't some alien car that is allergic to engineering and tuning like any other race engineered car. It's just a matter of putting in the money, time and effort.

The Supra is not the only car that IMO had Modification degradation, probably half of the standard cars and some of the premium cars had it too. The Supra was only my example because I have personal experience with it.

GT2's performance tuning was much, much, much more realistic than that of GT5. GT5's is better than GT3 and GT4, but the series faceplanted hard when GT3 came out so that doesn't mean much.[/QUOTE]

Agree wholeheardely

 

[devildog666]

Please do not take this the wrong way, but we have a standard policy here at GT Planet that anyone claiming to own a car considered 'unusual' will be asked to provide proof of ownership.

We even have a thread dedicated to it......

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=61433&page=85


....in which it would be greatly appreciated you provide proof.

As I said this is not me stating you don't own the car, simply asking you to show us that you do. We are very wary of these kind of claims, as the thread in question and the fact we had someone claiming to own a modified R34 this week that turned out to be less than true.

If you own it, then kudos and we would love to see it, if you don't then coming clean now is the wise thing to do.

I look forward to hearing from you in the linked thread.


Regards

Scaff

Why? It doesn't matter if he has one to agree or disagree with his post. I think you're being a bit uptight.

 

[Scaff]

Why? It doesn't matter if he has one to agree or disagree with his post. I think you're being a bit uptight.

I think you should read the linked thread and therefore gain a better understanding of the history behind this before taking a pop at the sites standard policy and a member of staff.

Oh and the AUP does cover this quite well....

You will not knowingly post any material that is false, misleading, or inaccurate.

Having had a quick review of your posting history you seem to like telling other members what and how to post, that's never a good idea in general, less so when it comes to staff and the sites standard policies.



Scaff

 

[Exorcet]

Okay, you will buy Supra in GT5 and mod it to death (2000hp) and WHAT'S NEXT? You will drive it for like 20 minutes then "meh! next..."

Quite an unfounded assumption.

It shouldn't take rocket science to understand what I'm saying here, so I'll reiterate and forget this instance.

Of course you could supe up a Supra and get 720hp and race stock Enzos all day... whatever, I'm sure we all do that in A-spec grinding. But that isn't going to get you anywhere online when people are driving 900-1000hp Enzos/Vipers/ZR1s/McLaren SLRs and so on... Supra is in a different league, 'nuff said. The whole intent in limiting its power was to keep it competitive with cars in its class - like other 700hp Camaros and 700hp Mustang Cobras. I mean, I don't see how I could have said this any clearer but whatever.

There is no need to limit its power though. If a 700 hp Supra can't match max tuned super cars, who cares? Just don't use it unless you want to make a real challenge for yourself. Likewise, if the Supra was able to be tuned far beyond other cars that start off with about the same stock performance it wouldn't matter. There's PP, and if the host care enough he can make his own rules.

You're arguing that a Supra shouldn't be allowed to compete with the highest end cars. I don't see a reason why that should be. It won't break the competition, and it's not unrealistic [depending on what kind of tuning options we have].

Basically, what I'm saying is that limiting a car to a certain percentage amount of upgrades isn't really causing any benefit. If you could take a Mini and make it a match for a Veyron on SS7, how is that going to negatively effect the game?


On a different subject, the previous mention of taking reliability, stress, and driveability into account are all great ideas (as long as it has no effect on credits/requires no trips to GT Auto), however I'd still like it if GT's "super mods" were still retained as well. I don't really see a need to limit GT5's tuning to what an autocross driver who races for fun on his days off would be able to get. I just want a racing simulation, not a simulation of a driver's life. Also, the idea that the player in GT5 is an average guy is pretty crazy given the amount and types of cars you can own.

I agree on the first part about modeling, but there are countless LeMans Race cars with more power than we are talking about here that can run a 24hr race with no said problems. Its a matter of the tuner how far he is willing to go to make a setup bulletproof. The Supra isn't some alien car that is allergic to engineering and tuning like any other race engineered car. It's just a matter of putting in the money, time and effort.

I agree with that. If it takes re-engineering a completely new engine to get a Supra to 2000 hp, it's perfectly fine by me. I'd be completely against paying for building or maintaining said engine though.

 

[Tornado]

The whole intent in limiting its power was to keep it competitive with cars in its class - like other 700hp Camaros and 700hp Mustang Cobras. I mean, I don't see how I could have said this any clearer but whatever.

You've made everything very clear except the why.

 

[occasionalracer]

Ok, I think Pd has wisely chosen to put a damper on what horsepower can be extracted out of each car to IMPROVE the overall experience and realism of the game. Your example of these one off tuned Supras and many many others tuned rides that reach ridicules horsepower is just not realistic in a controlled racing environment. The cars will NOT be reliable over a an extended amount of time. Tens of millions of $ go into development of supercars around the world each year, just to get a miniscule advantage over their previous mechanical designs.
What you're stating, that what Toyota did all those years ago was something so groundbreaking that it's still valid today as one of the best suspension and motor designs is a bit over the top and plain WRONG.
Yes the Supra is beautiful car with historically great balance and so on, but seriously your claims are way to fan-boy-ish. Tell me this... what precisely is it that Toyota did to the suspension geometry that is SO advanced over all the other great sport cars on the market? I think by now all manufacturers would have learned something from that, and guess what... they've outdone Toyota Supras capabilities by a couple of miles.

Anyway back to PD and why they've limited the HP range, it's really only to stop Civics running alongside Ferrari's and so on, it's only proper and realistic. And highly tuned engines would not hold up to the stress over lengthy races, so why add some useless tuning capabilities when "most" of them simply wouldn't hold up. They've made the right choice, and let's be honest it would be hugely unfair to manufacturers of high-end sports cars to be "blown" away by some little tuned peashooters. There's already too much unrealistic things going on tuning wise, mainly cause like others have stated, the fact that consequences of wear and tear have not be truly simulated.

 

[Tyger]

Just to throw a bit of a curveball in the mix, I find the tuning options in GT5 and indeed all of the series fun, but wholly unrealistic. Simply put, are we really supposed to believe we can improve the handling of something like an Enzo Ferrari in our bedrooms by adjusting a few sliders? For lower-powered cars and cars that were never intended for performance, that makes some sense. For top-end sports cars and supercars, where engineers have spent years and millions of pounds on development, it's frankly ridiculous, and in many cases I believe physically impossible.

 

[Tornado]

Ok, I think Pd has wisely chosen to put a damper on what horsepower can be extracted out of each car to IMPROVE the overall experience and realism of the game. Your example of these one off tuned Supras and many many others tuned rides that reach ridicules horsepower is just not realistic in a controlled racing environment. The cars will NOT be reliable over a an extended amount of time. Tens of millions of $ go into development go into supercars around the world each year, just to get a miniscule advantage over their previous mechanical designs.
What you're stating, that what Toyota did all those years ago was something so groundbreaking that it's still valid today as one of the best suspension and motor designs is a bit over the top and plain WRONG.
Yes the Supra is beautiful car with historically great balance and so on, but seriously your claims are way to fan-boy-ish. Tell me this... what precisely is it that Toyota did to the suspension geometry that is SO advanced over all the other great sport cars on the market? I think by now all manufacturers would have learned something from that, and guess what... they've outdone Toyota Supras capabilities by a couple of miles.

Anyway back to PD and why they've limited the HP range, it's really only to stop Civics running alongside Ferrari's and so on, it's only proper and realistic. And highly tuned engines would not hold up to the stress over lengthy races, so why add some useless tuning capabilities when "most" of them simply wouldn't hold up.


Ok, I think Pd has wisely chosen to put a damper on what horsepower can be extracted out of each car to IMPROVE the overall experience and realism of the game. Your example of these one off tuned Supras and many many others tuned rides that reach ridicules horsepower is just not realistic in a controlled racing environment. The cars will NOT be reliable over a an extended amount of time. Tens of millions of $ go into development go into supercars around the world each year, just to get a miniscule advantage over their previous mechanical designs.
What you're stating, that what Toyota did all those years ago was something so groundbreaking that it's still valid today as one of the best suspension and motor designs is a bit over the top and plain WRONG.
Yes the Supra is beautiful car with historically great balance and so on, but seriously your claims are way to fan-boy-ish. Tell me this... what precisely is it that Toyota did to the suspension geometry that is SO advanced over all the other great sport cars on the market? I think by now all manufacturers would have learned something from that, and guess what... they've outdone Toyota Supras capabilities by a couple of miles.

Anyway back to PD and why they've limited the HP range, it's really only to stop Civics running alongside Ferrari's and so on, it's only proper and realistic. And highly tuned engines would not hold up to the stress over lengthy races, so why add some useless tuning capabilities when "most" of them simply wouldn't hold up. They've made the right choice, and let's be honest it would hugely unfair to manufacturers of high-end sports cars to be "blown" away by some little tuned peashooters. There's already too much unrealistic things going on tuning wise, mainly cause like others have stated, the fact that consequences of wear and tear have not be truly simulated.

You absolutely 100% cannot use "they did it because that is more realistic" as justification for any of the tuning foibles in this game. It does far too much stupid crap (turbos on a Ferrari P4 anyone?) to even begin to be a valid set of reasoning.

 

[Tyger]

You absolutely 100% cannot use "they did it because that is more realistic" as justification for any of the tuning foibles in this game. It does far too much stupid crap (turbos on a Ferrari P4 anyone?) to even begin to be a valid set of reasoning.

Totally agree, and that illustrates my previous point very well. What I love is when someone who generally prefers driving cars fresh out of the box, complains about the handling and then an aspiring Shelby or Cosworth says "you just need to tweak this and this then increase that". That pretty much makes it a different car.

 

[occasionalracer]

You absolutely 100% cannot use "they did it because that is more realistic" as justification for any of the tuning foibles in this game. It does far too much stupid crap (turbos on a Ferrari P4 anyone?) to even begin to be a valid set of reasoning.

I'm just saying with full respect to PD's programmers, that if you have that much range in tuning on every car, the variables of the entire game become exponentially more complex, and therefore a "waste" of time. They have to draw the line somewhere in order to bring order the game, and they have enough work to do to balance out the realistic performance of all cars as it is.

I don't know I feel more people should accept cars as they come plain stock and not worry about giving a given car 5 times the power it has. It just makes for stupid comparisons, when these "tunes" haven't been proven in a RL racing environment.

 

[Scaff]

Just to throw a bit of a curveball in the mix, I find the tuning options in GT5 and indeed all of the series fun, but wholly unrealistic. Simply put, are we really supposed to believe we can improve the handling of something like an Enzo Ferrari in our bedrooms by adjusting a few sliders? For lower-powered cars and cars that were never intended for performance, that makes some sense. For top-end sports cars and supercars, where engineers have spent years and millions of pounds on development, it's frankly ridiculous, and in many cases I believe physically impossible.

Every suspension set-up is a compromise and that remains true for even the vast majority of top-end sports and super cars that are designed for the road.

Simply to make they drivable and able to deal with the far from ideal surfaces on public roads demands that, so being able to tweak suspension set-ups to improve it is not unrealistic at all. Even when you look at a track dedicated or race car they will still change suspension set-up (and at time components) depending on the track they are at.

A 'one-size fits all' set-up that is ideal for all circumstances simply doesn't exist and as such improvements can be made.

Keep in mind that's without even getting to the preferences of different drivers, which often results in very different set-ups for identical cars at the same track.

Is GT's tuning 100% accurate? Of course not, but that does change the point that even the best 'base' car will still need setting up for a particular track and driver combo.

Scaff

 

[Tyger]

Yeah fair point, and the reason why some cars have different settings you can configure from the comfort of your seat (though these are for the most part only replicated in GT5 by adjusting TCS/ABS etc. or a full retune).

I guess I should've cited more extreme examples, like Toronado's turbo on a P4. I guess it's inevitable when PD have made a "standard" set of tuning options for every car, and they are only model-specific by allowing or disallowing certain options. But I think these should be more restrictive personally, not less, to make things a little more realistic.

 

[Benjamin S]

Ok, I think Pd has wisely chosen to put a damper on what horsepower can be extracted out of each car to IMPROVE the overall experience and realism of the game. Your example of these one off tuned Supras and many many others tuned rides that reach ridicules horsepower is just not realistic in a controlled racing environment. The cars will NOT be reliable over a an extended amount of time. Tens of millions of $ go into development of supercars around the world each year, just to get a miniscule advantage over their previous mechanical designs.
What you're stating, that what Toyota did all those years ago was something so groundbreaking that it's still valid today as one of the best suspension and motor designs is a bit over the top and plain WRONG.
Yes the Supra is beautiful car with historically great balance and so on, but seriously your claims are way to fan-boy-ish. Tell me this... what precisely is it that Toyota did to the suspension geometry that is SO advanced over all the other great sport cars on the market? I think by now all manufacturers would have learned something from that, and guess what... they've outdone Toyota Supras capabilities by a couple of miles.

There are dozens and dozens of reliable daily driven 1000+HP Supras. Probably over 100+. There is a list somewhere on SupraForums of those said members. I can give you a list of Supras with over 300K Miles and still making over 800hp every day, day in and out. If that is not reliable then OK they are not reliable. It's reliable enough for me to get 300K miles out of an engine that makes over 800hp and still going strong with perfect compression. I'd still take it over any other prissy exotic- (Except maybe the V12 Vantage)

So no, they are not one off, they aren even 10 off. There are hundreds of these cars reliably making hundreds and hundreds of hp.

To this day no straight six or V6 for that matter has approached the reliablility and power levels of the 2JZ-GTE- PROVE ME WRONG - Show me a better 6 cyl engine, you will not find it. So yes, They did do something so groundbreaking that the largest car company in the world couldn't even top what they did.

As far as your suspension comment, I could bore you to death of the details in the brakes and suspension that are in the Supra that to date, that no other car has had; before or since those systems came out in the Supra. But I won't, I'll just say you just don't know what you don't know. It's not wrong, it engineering. I will say this, The Supra was pulling .98G's with 235mm front tires and 255mm rears when the Viper was pulling the same G's with 275mm fronts and 345mm rears. So yes, there is something special about the geometry since the cars weigh the same. The Supra on the same tire as the Viper will pull over 1.2G's and break some records you simply wouldn't believe.

Supra can hang with any car on the planet I don't care what it is. I can back up what I said, If you are so intent on telling a Supra expert that his car is inferior based on feelings and heresay then you find someone that has these "better" cars, I will call some buddies, and get a Supra that will race it. If you are not that confident, then get back on topic and drop it, because I will smoke any car you bring to me in real life happily, and make you all eat crow.

Here's one street Supra that beats the cars you are talking about EASILY on low boost on the track...It is my bud Curtis Chen. The white GT3 has R compounds and the Black GT2 is on SLICKS- ALL PRO DRIVERS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUn4J1n5QGU

I am not a fan-boy or a chump or bench racer, I have over a decade of racing experience, I know how to spec and tune Supras until the sun stops coming up. I will beat any of your beloved exotics in real life, now try that on for proof. I would bet money none of you are that confident. If your not willing to come out and race a Supra with said cars, then DROP IT. Back on topic please! Dank u com again!

 

[squirlybmx]

Quite simply, if they allowed every car in the game that is capable of 1000+hp, then a huge percentage of the cars would and it would ruin the PP system for online races and seasonal events. This game isn't made for drag racing, though some of us try to make it so . I'd still love to run the indy 1/4 1000+hp Supras, GT-Rs, and Gallardos but it just isn't going to happen.

 

[Tyger]

The guy in the Porsche is a pro driver? Is he actually racing though? Looked to me like all the other cars were either cruising, or not "pro drivers". They are all sponsored? Nice track though, and vid.

 

[Benjamin S]

The guy in the Porsche is a pro driver? Is he actually racing though? Looked to me like all the other cars were either cruising, or not "pro drivers". They are all sponsored? Nice track though, and vid.

Yes they are all sponsored pros at a competition event. Supra took first place.

 

[MoGoSpeed]

Its not a race. He even stated(in vid description) it's a shakedown lap, and he's not running at low boost, but medium boost.

 

[DEATHSARTHE]

You've made everything very clear except the why.

Because thats how the game is designed... This isn't anything new, most racing/driving games do this. They've obviously been limited to compete in a particular class of car - why? I don't know why they've segerated cars into classes. Maybe they're just trying to promote super cars or higher end cars... You'll have to contact PD to get that answer, I'm just reporting on what I'm seeing. It does indeed seem that most every other car the Supra competed against during its reign in production are all cars that cannot achieve more than 800hp. This isn't suprising to me, other games do this.

We've all seen Camaros with more than 700hp... we've all seen Mustangs with more than 700hp. We've all seen 1,000hp R33s and R34s and so on. Thing is, this is alll IRL - otherwise not within the world of Gran Turismo. 720hp is still quite extreme while also very realistic. I don't see a problem with it or with any of the tuning.

 

[Tenacious D]

Basically, what I'm saying is that limiting a car to a certain percentage amount of upgrades isn't really causing any benefit. If you could take a Mini and make it a match for a Veyron on SS7, how is that going to negatively effect the game?

I'm hoping that this is an exaggeration, because... well, this is just wrong.

I can see the essence of what you guys are saying on this side of it. And as a Supra MkIII owner myself, I have to say that this series of cars from the MkII on really are something special. But you can only take this modding argument so far. A well designed and well planted car like a Supra will benefit a great deal from some high end racing parts and tires, as well as a good bodykit and adjustable aero kit.

But at some point, physics will refuse to budge and your car will hit a performance ceiling that trying to exceed will only earn you a wrecked car that can't hold itself to a track. At this point, you have to resort to what the big boys do and spend the major bucks necessary to remake a sports car into a dedicated wide body racing machine.

This is in some way what the high end supercars like the latest Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Veyron and the like are, street-legal near-LeMans-level cars for those civilians rich enough to afford them. Yes, I'm sure that you can put some racing kit and tires on a Supra, 300Z, S2000 and similar car which will enable you to keep within a nose of them on a road course. But the Mini example is a bit much. Hot hatches just can't perform like a DTM or LeMans race car, and neither can sports cars, and this is where many of us have problems with Forza. Add some racing parts, and any car can be an R3 or R2 class car, and keep up with them. And if you really want to destroy all competition, add an AWD drivetrain to any car.

I guess I'm repeating myself, but sure, make whatever real world performance enhancements exist available to all cars. Just make them realistic. There are some cars in GT5 which do to some degree seem short sheeted. But then again, I check my lap times, and they are rather supertacular, even if the fight to keep them on the track seems excessive. I've resigned myself to the fact that PD and others have compiled the performance data, not just dyno values but on-track performance, and I haven't. Sure, maybe I'm cheaping out Jeremy Clarkson style, but while I've only driven three of the cars in the Gran Turismo series, those I have seem very close to what I experienced first hand.

 

[TT3AZ]

Well, the tuning in gt5 is retarded of course, many cars are really degraded for some reason.

 

[NA]

Because thats how the game is designed... This isn't anything new, most racing/driving games do this. They've obviously been limited to compete in a particular class of car - why? I don't know why they've segerated cars into classes. Maybe they're just trying to promote super cars or higher end cars... You'll have to contact PD to get that answer, I'm just reporting on what I'm seeing. It does indeed seem that most every other car the Supra competed against during its reign in production are all cars that cannot achieve more than 800hp. This isn't suprising to me, other games do this.

We've all seen Camaros with more than 700hp... we've all seen Mustangs with more than 700hp. We've all seen 1,000hp R33s and R34s and so on. Thing is, this is alll IRL - otherwise not within the world of Gran Turismo. 720hp is still quite extreme while also very realistic. I don't see a problem with it or with any of the tuning.

Yes, and after some study I also get the impression what PD might be doing in the 1000hp+ days was a bit of image selling. Certainly these cars can reach those levels, but now I think it's no longer about selling the "current hot car" image thing, and more about gameplay balance.
I also noticed that 600hp- 800hp Supras seem to be the comfort zone number that sticks out amongst owners discussing their Supras on various sites. Beyond that people mention reliability issues and shortened lifespans, things like that, so PD might be trying to keep it more within "the norm" for real world tuners.
Interestingly, searching "Most reliable V6 engine of all time" (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt..._us&type_param=yahoo_avg_hs2-tb-web_chrome_us) gets you all kinds of lists of makes and models. There is no strong support for the 2JZ-GTE that I can see. On lists that include mixes of V8, V6, flat 4, etc, often it's not even mentioned. One example: http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_best_engines_th/index.html And that would suggest to me that PD simply may no longer see a reason to focus greatly on the engine or it's potential.
It all leads me to think PD decided to stay with the lower power, in favor of game balance, as well as still keeping within a reasonable performance level, has opposed to the "wow" factor of going higher, and risking upstaging newer cars that the makers are more interested in promoting and selling in the process.
If it's the same for all the lowered cars, I would suspect thats for game balance, and to shift focus to newer cars as well.

 

[occasionalracer]

There are dozens and dozens of reliable daily driven 1000+HP Supras. Probably over 100+. There is a list somewhere on SupraForums of those said members. I can give you a list of Supras with over 300K Miles and still making over 800hp every day, day in and out. If that is not reliable then OK they are not reliable. It's reliable enough for me to get 300K miles out of an engine that makes over 800hp and still going strong with perfect compression. I'd still take it over any other prissy exotic- (Except maybe the V12 Vantage)

So no, they are not one off, they aren even 10 off. There are hundreds of these cars reliably making hundreds and hundreds of hp.

To this day no straight six or V6 for that matter has approached the reliablility and power levels of the 2JZ-GTE- PROVE ME WRONG - Show me a better 6 cyl engine, you will not find it. So yes, They did do something so groundbreaking that the largest car company in the world couldn't even top what they did.

As far as your suspension comment, I could bore you to death of the details in the brakes and suspension that are in the Supra that to date, that no other car has had; before or since those systems came out in the Supra. But I won't, I'll just say you just don't know what you don't know. It's not wrong, it engineering. I will say this, The Supra was pulling .98G's with 235mm front tires and 255mm rears when the Viper was pulling the same G's with 275mm fronts and 345mm rears. So yes, there is something special about the geometry since the cars weigh the same. The Supra on the same tire as the Viper will pull over 1.2G's and break some records you simply wouldn't believe.

Supra can hang with any car on the planet I don't care what it is. I can back up what I said, If you are so intent on telling a Supra expert that his car is inferior based on feelings and heresay then you find someone that has these "better" cars, I will call some buddies, and get a Supra that will race it. If you are not that confident, then get back on topic and drop it, because I will smoke any car you bring to me in real life happily, and make you all eat crow.

Here's one street Supra that beats the cars you are talking about EASILY on low boost on the track...It is my bud Curtis Chen. The white GT3 has R compounds and the Black GT2 is on SLICKS- ALL PRO DRIVERS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUn4J1n5QGU

I am not a fan-boy or a chump or bench racer, I have over a decade of racing experience, I know how to spec and tune Supras until the sun stops coming up. I will beat any of your beloved exotics in real life, now try that on for proof. I would bet money none of you are that confident. If your not willing to come out and race a Supra with said cars, then DROP IT. Back on topic please! Dank u com again!

Man, I don't know what you're trying to prove with that vid of your buddy at a casual event, where quite obviously he is running a car with much higher horsepower. He's litterally cruising past everyone, which would make for the most boring race event ever, if it were. Some of the other drivers were also clearly not the best, I could immediatly see that. Not to mention his pit stop after a couple minutes of racing, which wasn't to check tire pressure, but to let things cool down a bit, that's the main thing about these crazy builds... things get waay to hot over an extended time in a real race enviornment. This is exacly what PD is taking a step back with the tuning, it's just unfair if these cars could run laps around exotics endlessly.

YouTube is littered with vids like this, where one guy has the craziest build (and some applaudable driving skills) and scoots by a whole field of cars within 1 lap. This is why there is something called regulations in racing series throughout the world.

I know there are infinte amouts of aftermarket specialty engine parts you can purchase from Japan, and build the engine to these numbers, along with lots of tuning and testing. This is also true for other cars out there, but power at the wheels means nothing in the real world of racing. I'm not gonna get into it the handeling aspect, because there are more advanced suspension systems out there even in non exotics. Don't get me wrong I understand the Supra is a great handeling car, I'm a big fan of the car myself.

The point here is, while it's completely fun to own a killer Supra and also fly by Porsches and so on, it's not in PD's interest to have every car put out that much power due to the complexity of the game as a whole. Like I said, they already have a gazillion variables, with some that still need to be fine tuned. They need to simplify the programming at some point, and that point is at these questionable hp ranges for any given car that come into play. While yes, it could be achieved, but I have faith that PD have a resonable answer for this, probably along the lines of mine. Let them concentrate on modeling some more beautiful tracks and cars, as well working on the overall physics engine for GT6.

And lastly why? What's so great about having a field of nearly identical 1500hp Supras? It all boils down to driving precision and concistancy just like any other closely PP related race. It should still be about the driver in this game more than adjusting sliders. There are plenty of cars to enjoy the game in all hp ranges already. Maybe it's me but I have very little interest in virtual tuning. In RL, different story I have worked on several cars, doing complete suspension, brake upgrades, and engine mods. I'm currently working on an S13 that is completely stripped to the bone, and will house a Corvette motor in 2-3 years. Do I care if I can have the exact spec'ed S13 in GT, NO because I can walk into my garage and hop into it and take off, just like you can enjoy your 800 hp Supra and rip around.

 

[SkateNj]

I think some of you guys are forgetting its a game. I would love 1200-2500 BHP cars just for the amount of laughs i know i would have. So i can learn to tame them and then become a better driver in the process. Games like GT5 are all about fun not 100 percent dead on physics accuracy.
Remember its a game have fun and dont complain about it.