GT4 vs Forza [Let the battle begin]

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JAGUAR
Well I will be buying GT4, Forza, Enthusia, GTR. Does that make me a GT4 fanboy?

The engine swap epitomises the bull**** extras that Forza is using to get one up on GT4. Who the hell swaps engines in real life????

Why are the Forza development team implementing paint chips and the like when they are still quite plainly light years behind PD when it comes to producing realistic looking cars and tracks, despite having theorectically more powefull hardware.

I have no doubt Forza will have damage that also affects the car performance. I also have no doubt that it will be a shadow of what is going to be possible on the next generation machines. Why even attempt something that will not be upto to standard.
First off, yes you are still a GT fanboy, your knocking Forza on all it's extra features, how crap is GT4's photomode eh or it's museum or thoes damn stage 1 to 4 turbo kit's, I mean who in real life ever buys a stage 4 turbo kit, honwestley that has to be the daftest thing ever :dunce:. Real race cars can have different engines look at the latest R34 GT-R's in the GT500, they have V6's not the standard inline 6's that should be in the car. Plenty of people who are well into tuning cars for performance swap engines it's usually a complicated and expensive procedure but it can completey transform regulay shopping trolleys into 1/4 monsters or coupled with decent suspension and brakes it can turn the mundane into a powrful sportscat killer on the circuit.
As for the graphics Forza's are not bad, GT4's might look more realistic to you but Forza's graphics are still very good. And the damage will only add to the gameplay, it will prevent you from having that I'm invicible aproach, why not add damage if it will add to the game? Your a PD ass kisser nothing else.
 
"The engine swap epitomises the bull**** extras that Forza is using to get one up on GT4. Who the hell swaps engines in real life????

Why are the Forza development team implementing paint chips and the like when they are still quite plainly light years behind PD when it comes to producing realistic looking cars and tracks, despite having theorectically more powefull hardware.

I have no doubt Forza will have damage that also affects the car performance. I also have no doubt that it will be a shadow of what is going to be possible on the next generation machines. Why even attempt something that will not be upto to standard."

Nobody swaps engines in real life. Nissan's JGTC team was using a turbocharged VQ35DE's on their skylines last year. I wonder how they got them in there... :dunce:

Oh, since graphics are going to be exponentially better on next gen systems, why do developers even bother? That's your reasoning right? Since its gonna be better on the next gen, games right now shouldn't have anything. In fact, lets all throw our PS2's and xboxes out the window because we all know the next generation is going to eclipse the current games. SOMETHING>NOTHING einstein.
 
code_kev
People who want to make little cars go at stupid speeds. Iv'e met people who have done this before.

AHHH jaguar, I see now, it all comes down to graphics, can't say I'm supprised. TBH I thought forza looked quite pretty.

I can't believe he used "generic" and "super cars" in the same sentance, with out including "are not".

If you want to make a car go faster you tune it, add a turbo etc. How many people swap engines, apart from the sad 'Fast and te Furios' crowd.

Also there is a very, very big difference between cosmetic modifications, and racing specification wings/splitters etc.
 
Jaguar, all the racing mods in forza make an impact on the cars aerodynamics actually :P

See jaguar, the thing is you can tune the car AND swap engines. See, it's your choice, and if you make bad engine choices etc, it can actually make you go slower. More features and options = better, and don't give me that F & F bull****, man that's so boring now.

As I said, thank god that jaguar doesn't make racing games.

"here's pong racing, why bother when the next gen is gonna be so much better"
 
He won't ever get it, he's hammered a nail into his head with a GT logo on it. He's a GT boy and won't accept anything else as even close to GT4 even though he still hasn't played GT4.
 
I bet you any money, if it was forza getting a photo mode, and not Gt4, forza would be getting ripped to bits for having it.

"awww photos, how geh, how F & F" :dopey:
 
Engine swaps are strategically important first and foremost in the racing world, allowing certain lighter, stiffer chassis to have more powerful engines that aren't native to their production models.

Car companies perform engine swaps all the time for limited edition performance hybrids (the Renault Clio V6).

If you discount the importance of engine swaps, you are very, very ignorant and should pull your head out of your ass, get a good look at real car enthusiast culture and shut up.
 
When talking about engine swaps, I am specifically talking about road cars. I think you will also find engine swaps are a big no, no in competion cars. The JGTC Nissan shoudn't even come into this discussion. they are prototypes full stop, with no reltion to the road cars.

A Clio V6 is hardly comparable to the kind of thing Forza will allow you to do.

Who ever said graphics and other improvements should not be improved.

My point is that, on current systems, it is impossible to implement a truly realistic damage model.

Forza needs to get the core product honed down before implementing 'extras' that add nothing to the core game.
 
JAGUAR
I cannot belive what a bunch of fanboys you lot are.

When talking about engine swaps, I am specifically talking about road cars. I think you will also find engine swaps are a big no, no in competion cars. The JGTC Nissan shoudn't even come into this discussion. they are prototypes full stop, with no reltion to the road cars.

Who ever said graphics and other imrpovement should not be improved.

My point is that, on current systems, it is impossible to implement a truly realistic damage model.

Forza needs to get the core product honed down before implement 'extras' that add nothing to the core game.

There is no way they can implement a truly realistic graphics engine either, correct?

SO your arguments fall flat and you call us fanboys. Nice 👍

I'm not even especially fond of forza, I just hate morons that refuse to reason.
 
Err, the JGTC cars are in no way prototypes, what gave you that impression, just because there was a V6R34 and a V8 Suora that does not make them prototypes, they are GT cars based on a stock version of the same car. Engine swaps are seen more in road cars anyway, race cars use them because they can be of benefit, people do it to their road cars quite often in the tuning world, I've seen Rover V8 powered Renault LAguna's and all sorts. Also if it can be done in real life and it improves perfomance and you don'a HAVE to do it to your cars in the game, why is it bad? It's impossible on current systems to implement a truely realistic physics model, but they still try to get as close as they can, should GT4 just dump it's physics model and use the one from Ridge race 5 because it's not going to be truely realistic? Forza from the sound of things has "the core product" in it's advanced AI and phsics model, it also has a more advanced tuning system than any previouse GT and it has damage too.
Also a Clio V6 is more than what Forza will let you do, you don't think we'll be seeing Civic's with 8 liter V10's do you?
 
kinigitt
There is no way they can implement a truly realistic graphics engine either, correct?

SO your arguments fall flat and you call us fanboys. Nice 👍

:crazy:

G :dunce: :ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :ouch:

The phot mode. Who gives a ****!

The point is GT has the phyics, realism level pretty honed at the moment, after 4 generation of games.

The damage model will not even come close to real so why bother on this generation of console. PS2 and Xbox are streached to the limit mastering a passably 'realistic' graphics and physics. Damage is one step to far, IMO.

BTW since 2003 the GT500 have nothing whatsoever to do with their road going counterparts. They are 90 % prototype, 10% road car.

Also a Clio V6 is not an engine swap. It is a totally new car with a mid mounted engine.
 
JAGUAR
:crazy:

G :dunce: :ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :ouch:

The phot mode. Who gives a ****!

The point is GT has the phyics, realism level pretty honed at the moment, after 4 generation of games.

The damage model will not even come close to real so why bother on this generation of console.
My point is Forza's physics could be on a par with GT4's, if they are then Forza will be the better game because it has that AND these "nonsence extra's" too. You can't say they won't be because you don't know and with Ferrari's engineers helping to get the feel right I bet it's pretty damn good.
 
As I see it (and I'm sure my post will just go up in the internet fog):

Every chapter in the GT series was a step forward in PD's grasp towards the ultimate driving simulation, every time a GT was released it was the new marker for driving/graphical realism. Now Forza is indeed a new kid on the block, that doesn't mean it doesn't stand a chance, but I'd say the chances are slim. This is no fanboyism, as frankly, I don't own either console, I play games around at friends houses, and funny enough, that way I got slung tot he GT series (I emulate GT2).

Forza, even though promising, has much to make up for, if they're really interested in keeping the pace with GT they'll have to do quite some effort. GT has always advertised itself as a racing simulator, and that's where I think comparing Forza and GT might be a bit like comparing apples and oranges. Forza seems more like an NFSU. The developers have a lower budget than PD, and need to make sure they get enough customers, they are not sure of a real fanclub. Fanboys of Forza can't do but speculate and hope their game is better, but in fact, they know as much about Forza as the pope does about dealing drugs.

Forza aims at a middle-class, I don't mean this financially, I mean a middle-class that isn't into die-hard hardcore racing, but rather into the visuals of the car than the engine, rather into the looks of the racing, and the feeling of speed than into a correct physics model.

Gran Turismo is however still lacking in some departments, departments such as interior view, skid marks, you know, the things you listed (yes even reverse lights ... wth?). On the other hand, GT more than makes up for this by the ammount of cars they offer a player to drive. Last time I checked Forza was going to model 60+ cars, that's quite a low number considering there are over a 120 cars in GT3 (I don't know exact number), and GT4 is supposed to have a car # in the ranges of GT2 (500ish). Every car is modeled accurately in the graphical AND the physical side of things, creating an interior view (with a real feel to it) would be disk space gobbling. Interior views as the ones found in 99.9% of the race games substract from the overal experience anyway, they just don't look real.

About the licenses, and the damaging: well in the past, IIRC, PD could only get licenses to the Japanese car manufacturers' cars, after GT1 they got access to the mainstay of car manufacturers. At the moment, it's probably that they are licensed to recreate the cars of most European car manufacturers. The only real question marks still there are the Italian supercars. Wether they're in or out is all a matter of speculation, but it wouldn't be so strange if they were in. Think of it, in the past, lots of car manufacturers feared their cars woudl be modeled as absolute crap, so Ferrari chose the easy and certain way, and went with NFS where all cars are more or less the same, and wehre they didn't need to fear getting bad value for money, or any of that. (Ferrari etc might still fear their cars would get doubled by a Skyline with 1000hp in a 5 lap race though). So now PD established itself, Ferrari might cut them some slack. (this is all speculation). On the damage model side of things, I don't like driving around in a wreck. I don't care much for damage models because I don't play a race sim to go trash a car, I've got other games to do that. Crashing is a part of racing, but it's not so much the visuals of crashing, it's rather the physics of crashing, which determine a great racing game. Also, IIRC, some car manufacturers only allowed PD to model their cars because in GT cars can't crash, they didn't like to see their cars getting crashed into the wall and dieing there, virtually...

Ah well, thats just what I think...

No I'm not a fanboy, but I already said that...

<Z>
 
"A Clio V6 is hardly comparable to the kind of thing Forza will allow you to do."

How is that? Turning a front wheel drive, 4 cylinder car into a mid-engined, V6 monster seems pretty wild doesn't it?

A huge part of liking cars and tuning them is imagining the possibilities of home-brew engine swaps. They can make or break a car. For instance, I own an 86 VW jetta, which the previous owner went through a lot of trouble to drop a 98 VR6 into it. It's awesome, now it has a lot more muscle, has that great sound, and along with the upgraded shocks, springs and VR6 disc brake conversion it's a competely different animal.

Saying engine swaps are stupid is like saying tuning in general is stupid and should be left to the fast and the furious boys.
 
Forza seems more like an NFSU.

i got to that and just stopped reading. FORZA IS A SIM, MADE BY SIM FANS, FOR SIM FANS. Thank you.

Lower budget???? Ummm, one word, microsoft.

Had a quick look through your post, your lack of knowledge and sense is blinding, forza is going to have 200+ ish cars, not 60 :P

Interior views as the ones found in 99.9% of the race games substract from the overal experience anyway, they just don't look real.

This gets my vote for stupid post of the week btw. It's nice that you typed so much, shame most of it was ill informed.
 
kinigitt
"A Clio V6 is hardly comparable to the kind of thing Forza will allow you to do."

How is that? Turning a front wheel drive, 4 cylinder car into a mid-engined, V6 monster seems pretty wild doesn't it?

A huge part of liking cars and tuning them is imagining the possibilities of home-brew engine swaps. They can make or break a car. For instance, I own an 86 VW jetta, which the previous owner went through a lot of trouble to drop a 98 VR6 into it. It's awesome, now it has a lot more muscle, has that great sound, and along with the upgraded shocks, springs and VR6 disc brake conversion it's a competely different animal.

Saying engine swaps are stupid is like saying tuning in general is stupid and should be left to the fast and the furious boys.


The Clio V6 is a totally new model. They didn't just stick a V6 in a FF Clio 1.2.

Nice talking guys. I'm off now :) 👍
 
Zembla
As I see it (and I'm sure my post will just go up in the internet fog):

Every chapter in the GT series was a step forward in PD's grasp towards the ultimate driving simulation, every time a GT was released it was the new marker for driving/graphical realism. Now Forza is indeed a new kid on the block, that doesn't mean it doesn't stand a chance, but I'd say the chances are slim. This is no fanboyism, as frankly, I don't own either console, I play games around at friends houses, and funny enough, that way I got slung tot he GT series (I emulate GT2).

Forza, even though promising, has much to make up for, if they're really interested in keeping the pace with GT they'll have to do quite some effort. GT has always advertised itself as a racing simulator, and that's where I think comparing Forza and GT might be a bit like comparing apples and oranges. Forza seems more like an NFSU. The developers have a lower budget than PD, and need to make sure they get enough customers, they are not sure of a real fanclub. Fanboys of Forza can't do but speculate and hope their game is better, but in fact, they know as much about Forza as the pope does about dealing drugs.

Forza aims at a middle-class, I don't mean this financially, I mean a middle-class that isn't into die-hard hardcore racing, but rather into the visuals of the car than the engine, rather into the looks of the racing, and the feeling of speed than into a correct physics model.

Gran Turismo is however still lacking in some departments, departments such as interior view, skid marks, you know, the things you listed (yes even reverse lights ... wth?). On the other hand, GT more than makes up for this by the ammount of cars they offer a player to drive. Last time I checked Forza was going to model 60+ cars, that's quite a low number considering there are over a 120 cars in GT3 (I don't know exact number), and GT4 is supposed to have a car # in the ranges of GT2 (500ish). Every car is modeled accurately in the graphical AND the physical side of things, creating an interior view (with a real feel to it) would be disk space gobbling. Interior views as the ones found in 99.9% of the race games substract from the overal experience anyway, they just don't look real.

About the licenses, and the damaging: well in the past, IIRC, PD could only get licenses to the Japanese car manufacturers' cars, after GT1 they got access to the mainstay of car manufacturers. At the moment, it's probably that they are licensed to recreate the cars of most European car manufacturers. The only real question marks still there are the Italian supercars. Wether they're in or out is all a matter of speculation, but it wouldn't be so strange if they were in. Think of it, in the past, lots of car manufacturers feared their cars woudl be modeled as absolute crap, so Ferrari chose the easy and certain way, and went with NFS where all cars are more or less the same, and wehre they didn't need to fear getting bad value for money, or any of that. (Ferrari etc might still fear their cars would get doubled by a Skyline with 1000hp in a 5 lap race though). So now PD established itself, Ferrari might cut them some slack. (this is all speculation). On the damage model side of things, I don't like driving around in a wreck. I don't care much for damage models because I don't play a race sim to go trash a car, I've got other games to do that. Crashing is a part of racing, but it's not so much the visuals of crashing, it's rather the physics of crashing, which determine a great racing game. Also, IIRC, some car manufacturers only allowed PD to model their cars because in GT cars can't crash, they didn't like to see their cars getting crashed into the wall and dieing there, virtually...

Ah well, thats just what I think...

No I'm not a fanboy, but I already said that...

<Z>

This has got to be one of the most moronic post's yet

#1 Forza is a Sim and should not be mistaken for arcade.... A SIM !
#2 Forza don't have a big budget one word MICROSOFT

Please reserach are have a clue before you post !!!!
 
See ya jag!

Front, I totally agree, this guy has no smegging clue!

Forza is for the middle class, damn, my parents are working class, guess this means I can't play it!
 
irst off, Microsoft studio's will have a higher budget than PD I rekon, secondly Forza is in no way like NFSU it features bodykit's so what, they affect the cars performance, GT1 and 2 featured bodykit's but they weer pre-selected ones, you had no control over the individual parts. Forza is aiming for the sim audience, it features far more tuning options and parts than any past GT so it's not "middle class". Forza will have OVER 200 cars, not 60, I think thats the number seen in the game so far, but it will have over 200. As for the licenses, I don't think manufacturers are like that, ie Ferrari say you can have this car but only if it's the best car in the game ect, as long as the car is represented as it is in real life they would allow it to be in, provided PD paid enough and there wasn't any toher license stopping them from aking it. Also I've never heared of any cars that went into GT because of no crashes, I know some don't like damage but even Ferrari and Lamborgini and co have been in games with crashes, it all about how much PD cough up.
 
good riddance.

The clio v6 is still a clio that has been reegineered for a mid-engined, v6 swap. THAT'S WHAT ENGINE SWAPPING IS.

Reengineering cars to swap a different engine into. It doesn't matter if it's industrial grade mass-produced or not.
 
He hasn't got a clue has he, anyway he still hasn't noticed that it's seen in plenty of modded road cars too. Also he said he's not on about the race cars bt the road cars, I'm sure that in Forza you turn your road car into a race car much like in GT.
 
LOL noone does engine swaps, I know of 2 people that put a GSi Astra engine in their Nova (few years ago) and the most recent a Corsa, small light cars, big mother of an engine = wooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaahhhhhhhh. :) (of course they changed the other parts to accommadate this)

Back on topic, we can't judge these games without playing them, a game could look as realistic as hell but still be crap and vice versa. Games are all about playability not details and effects, sure the ones you'd expect should be in there but until we can actually playtest these for ourselves and make our own judgements we'll never know, don't believe the hype, don't believe the fanboys, wait until you have played them for yourself and make up your own mind. And remember what you like, someone else will dislike, it's what makes us individuals and unique.

umm that is all
 
kinigitt
good riddance.

The clio v6 is still a clio that has been reegineered for a mid-engined, v6 swap. THAT'S WHAT ENGINE SWAPPING IS.

Reengineering cars to swap a different engine into. It doesn't matter if it's industrial grade mass-produced or not.


Come on its completely different.

The Clio V 6 is a purpose built sportscar with a Clio look-a-like body. About the only thing they have in common are the headlights.

The only people who do engine conversion these days, on a relatively large scale, are hot rodders with their ludicrouse cars.

A Max Power wannabe sticking a 2.0l lump in a Corsa does not count I'm afraid.

What next a Ruf 3.6 Turbo in a Civic Type-R.

Back to the original point. Forza could be great, and i will buy it regardless. BUT, they need to get the funamentals right, and that does include the graphics as well.

Whats the point of adding paint Chips if the cars look like Cartoon extras.

From a personal point of view the Forza development team seem to be adding every 'extra' imaginable so they can 'beat' GT4 in a side by side comparison. I have a gut feeling the core product will not be upto GT4's standards.

I have yet to see anything in Forza that has made me sit back and say wow. I hope that changes.

I find it hard to have a serious debate with a bunch of guys who care more about revesing lights than using a steering wheel! :dopey:
 
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