GT5 BTCC/WTCC league

[Fuelmyfire]

Perhaps a PP cap would be better then? Take the average PP with the cars at the BHP cap and the weight limit (or as close as they can make it) and use that? You would probably have to stick wings on all of them and max them out, of course there are weight and power limits so reducing your downforce in the series would be on your back without any gain in PP from the loss through less downforce.

I attempted to recreate the entire field 6 months ago or so, and I can say that the ones you mentioned (MrMelancholy15) cannot get to that weight.

On the topic of cars out performing others, you'll just have wait until the first race is completed to see what's what (sounds obvious but there isn't really another way with a mixed race series).

Also I think that the turbo cars should probably keep their base turbo (aka no tuned turbos) as the advantage will be great as you cannot control the boost as they would in the real series.

Sport Softs would be the limit in terms of tires, the Racing Hards will just make everyone go round on rails (not that the SS are very hard to drive on ^^).

And finally, I would assume the standard ruling on kerb usage? Keeping two wheels on the track at all times (within the white lines), no passing off the race track, etc. You could even employ a penalty system for frequent offenders gaining an advantage to running off the track such as was seen in the races at Hockenheim last weekend.

 

[Wardez]

Perhaps a PP cap would be better then? Take the average PP with the cars at the BHP cap and the weight limit (or as close as they can make it) and use that? You would probably have to stick wings on all of them and max them out, of course there are weight and power limits so reducing your downforce in the series would be on your back without any gain in PP from the loss through less downforce.

I attempted to recreate the entire field 6 months ago or so, and I can say that the ones you mentioned (MrMelancholy15) cannot get to that weight.

On the topic of cars out performing others, you'll just have wait until the first race is completed to see what's what (sounds obvious but there isn't really another way with a mixed race series).

Also I think that the turbo cars should probably keep their base turbo (aka no tuned turbos) as the advantage will be great as you cannot control the boost as they would in the real series.

Sport Softs would be the limit in terms of tires, the Racing Hards will just make everyone go round on rails (not that the SS are very hard to drive on ^^).

And finally, I would assume the standard ruling on kerb usage? Keeping two wheels on the track at all times (within the white lines), no passing off the race track, etc. You could even employ a penalty system for frequent offenders gaining an advantage to running off the track such as was seen in the races at Hockenheim last weekend.

In order to get a field of cars to parity you can't just guesstimate then race results to tweak from there. This is because obviously all drivers are different and there's no way to get concise readings based off of a race.

The only proper way to do it is to put in the work. It's ideal to have at least two dedicated drivers putting in laps in all of the cars then tweaking power and weight until you get level spec's, then you compare with the other testing driver and keep working till the cars are hitting a consistent and similar time (at least within half of a second). So you choose the one car in your field that's easiest for you to hit a fast time in, that becomes your benchmark car, then you get into all the other cars one at a time and start to play catch up. Add more power, or weight, or switch out power for more weight. Power affects most strongly of course, most especially top speed. Weight doesn't affect top speed too much, but most certainly cornering speed and acceleration to an extent.

One good thing to start from is an easier form of parity: top speed.

So you get all the cars and run them down a track with a long straight (and if you have Route X DLC, you can just do the speed tests). Try Monza. Use the front straight as the yardstick. Mark the speed at which you must start braking for the first corner and also the speed at which you cross the start/finish. Adjust power, make sure all the cars have the same amount of drivetrain and aerodynamic updates, and always run all of them on full downforce just to keep it simple.

Then again, record results and continue to twistier frontiers once you've got that down.

A great tip (which I really am being generous in sharing here) is to use Suzuka's first sector to gauge handling performance across the field of cars. Just do laps around Suzuka in the benchmark car, paying most attention to the long first sector time (around a minute long). When you're really comfortable with doing the first sector consistently, take out another car and see how it does. This is when you'll notice major disparity between cars' handling abilities. You may even be a little shock after getting them all even on top speed. But this is the great aspect of having a mixed field of cars, each one has its own character and limits, makes for some really interesting racing if done right.

Racing like this:



And again, I suggest you guys take this thread to our little sub-community in the online racing section. We always want more like-minded racers!

P.S:
on rumble strips. Most of us here on GTP (legacy rules) consider all hard surfaces on a race course to be track, so we count curbing as track. The reason that they're more strict in F1 and other certain high profile races is because F1 cars are too sensitive to throw over curbs to race and the tolerances involved mean that taking wide lines easily becomes dangerous. But if you're in a V8 Supercar at 1400 kg, sure, no reason not to, but in those cases, they instead modify the curbing so it's high enough to prevent running. With most of us, we like to go for the absolute limit of the tracks and we think it's funnest that way. A lot of people are stubborn and refuse to recognize this approach so they would rather sacrifice fun for arbitrary realism in order to feel like that can call their series more realistic.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Then again, record results and continue to twistier frontiers once you've got that down.
...
A great tip (which I really am being generous in sharing here) is to use Suzuka's first sector to gauge handling performance across the field of cars. Just do laps around Suzuka in the benchmark car, paying most attention to the long first sector time (around a minute long). When you're really comfortable with doing the first sector consistently, take out another car and see how it does. This is when you'll notice major disparity between cars' handling abilities. You may even be a little shock after getting them all even on top speed. But this is the great aspect of having a mixed field of cars, each one has its own character and limits, makes for some really interesting racing if done right.


And again, I suggest you guys take this thread to our little sub-community in the online racing section. We always want more like-minded racers!

Guesstimation never works. I fully agree with this.


In my ITCC, we ran 1000s of laps, planning specs, and comparing, at Autumn Ring alone, comparing tire wear, driveability, and lap times. Then, once everyone had set up their cars, I set up races at Autumn Ring, (before even announcing the series) with people from my friends' lists. Then, the cars were all running 1:17.5xx; ALL 60+ cars we tuned ran 1:17.5xx at Autumn Ring. Then, we decided to try out new tracks: Cape Ring Inside, Rome, and a few others. We found out, at Cape Ring Inside, that the Scirocco was two seconds faster than any other car, and there wasn't a thing we could do. So, we removed the Scirocco. We still had more than 60 cars.



ONLY then did I announce the series on GTP, and we set up five official preseason rounds, still continuing to test every aspect of the series. With fewer cars, it should be simple. I got comments asking "how did you make so many cars so competitive?" My answer was pretty much the time honoured saying "Practice makes perfect./Uebung macht den Meister."


So, I'll give you the biggest points I can to help:

• Start with similar cars! Starting with cars that are completely different beforehand is way more difficult
• Keep variables the same: if you're allowing downforce, put downforce on ALL cars for testing, etc.
• Never change the specs based on assumptions. Test it, and only let lap times speak for themselves.
• Lap times don't lie
• If you have trouble driving one car, ask someone else to test it, and ask them to test the benchmark car, and compare lap times
• This one's more general: keep an open mind to suggestions.

 

[Fuelmyfire]

I'm up for testing cars and evening things out if Sixflags48 is available.

 

[f1webberfan]

During some meeting, bring a tuned volvo and we can test the slipstreaming at the x course, how much it does at speed, after one of the meetings i could put you into #1 volvo

I don't have the X course cause I don't consider it worth it. Sorry. Well that was just a suggestion.
Very glad that timezones won't be a problem but feel free to change them if more people are in for a different time of the race starts!

 

[Sixflags48]

I'm up for testing cars and evening things out if Sixflags48 is available.

That would be helpful, i could always use a few hands while testing. What times would work?

 

[Fuelmyfire]

I'm free Sunday all day. And Fri, Sat, Sun next week as well.

I also think you should move the thread to the Racing forum. I guess get in contact with an admin or can you move the thread yourself?

 

[jammyrex]

I'm a huge BTCC fan so I would love to be able to take part in this, racing a Civic if possible, or help out in general with testing etc.

 

[Fuelmyfire]

I'm a huge BTCC fan so I would love to be able to take part in this, racing a Civic if possible, or help out in general with testing etc.

That'd be awesome . I think we should get some test days sorted out and possibly get all three of us trying out the cars to give a more balanced result.

 

[Sixflags48]

there are still meetings every Wed. but whenever i am online there could be a group practice, but i am thinking right now that Tuesdays are a pretty good way to go for the practices

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

there are still meetings every Wed. but whenever i am online there could be a group practice, but i am thinking right now that Tuesdays are a pretty good way to go for the practices

Meetings? Like, an organized discussion between officials in the series?

Also, I'm not sure when on Wednesdays, based on your info.

 

[lintels123]

Sorry I haven't discussed anything about this the past few days. Another series that someone has been working on for a while is finally getting going and they've asked me to take part in the main testing, suggestions, track selection, etc. I would still love to take part in this series if the schedule doesn't become an issue

 

[jammyrex]

there are still meetings every Wed. but whenever i am online there could be a group practice, but i am thinking right now that Tuesdays are a pretty good way to go for the practices

A Tuesday eve could work for me but depends on timezones I guess! I'm not hugely experienced in racing online, but I love my racing in general and a massive BTCC fan so would really like to take part. Just been tuning a Civic Type-R within the regs for my own research.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

A Tuesday eve could work for me but depends on timezones I guess! I'm not hugely experienced in racing online, but I love my racing in general and a massive BTCC fan so would really like to take part. Just been tuning a Civic Type-R within the regs for my own research.

I already race a Civic Type-R. It's a good car, all around. It doesn't really have a drawback, if it's in spec against other cars.

 

[Sixflags48]

I already race a Civic Type-R. It's a good car, all around. It doesn't really have a drawback, if it's in spec against other cars.

With the way the regs are, the civic is very "plain" i guess, i found it easy to get them to be similar when i made the same power and pp, but the weight is different among all the cars

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

With the way the regs are, the civic is very "plain" i guess, i found it easy to get them to be similar when i made the same power and pp, but the weight is different among all the cars

Speaking of specs, I was curious about which ones you were talking about, and checked the OP. The specs look better. 👍 Put me down in the 330i.

 

[Fuelmyfire]

Speaking of specs, I was curious about which ones you were talking about, and checked the OP. The specs look better. 👍 Put me down in the 330i.

Hah, the most powerful car in the field ^^ I think a penalty needs to be put on the FR cars as in the real series.

I'll get in the Focus on this note

 

[jammyrex]

Hi, sorry but I've not really done any club racing before so what is the process for us all meeting up and testing / racing? Do you specify a room number and we join at a specific time? Apologies if this is a stupid question!

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Hi, sorry but I've not really done any club racing before so what is the process for us all meeting up and testing / racing? Do you specify a room number and we join at a specific time? Apologies if this is a stupid question!

Never a stupid question, if asked with question marks. Anyways, you've made the first step. Regardless of series, contacting the guys running it, or running in it, is always a great first step.


As for testing the cars, I think we'll all figure something out. The best way for the guys organizing this series, to test, is having open tests. If that's the case, I'm hoping that they give us 2 days of notice, "hey, I'm free to test on -day at -." Therefore, it's just about checking what the guys organizing the series say.


In saying this, I'd like to get more involved in testing this, too, because I think I could be beneficial for them.

 

[Fuelmyfire]

As many people testing as possible will give the best results. I was playing around with my Focus last night, it's a little rocket ship! Handles really well too.

Was wondering if the PP limit was with Aero at full? Or can we adjust the aero to what we please?

 

[raceorama123432]

I would be interested in racing for Volkswagen, what times are the meetings UK time?

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I would be interested in racing for Volkswagen, what times are the meetings UK time?

According to OP:

There will be a meeting every Thursday at 14:00 (pacific) for a race, and a race will start as long as there are more than 8 people ready for racing

Date of each race will be on a Wednesday at 22:00 Pacific
There may be two races held on the same day

Meetings on Thursdays: 14:00 PST = 22:00 GMT

Races on Wednesdays: 05:00 GMT on Thursday. 💡 let's change this, please. sixflags, most of your fanbase for the BTCC/WTCC will be in Europe. Having a time that will help European players will help. Because I'm in Canada, right now, that's 01:00 in my timezone, so I might make it, depending on how sleepy I am, etc.

 

[raceorama123432]

According to OP:

Meetings on Thursdays: 14:00 PST = 22:00 GMT

Races on Wednesdays: 05:00 GMT on Thursday. 💡 let's change this, please. sixflags, most of your fanbase for the BTCC/WTCC will be in Europe. Having a time that will help European players will help. Because I'm in Canada, right now, that's 01:00 in my timezone, so I might make it, depending on how sleepy I am, etc.

Thanks

What lap times on average around Monza you guys doing? I'm doing 2:05s

 

[Sixflags48]

Was wondering if the PP limit was with Aero at full? Or can we adjust the aero to what we please?

The pp limit for everyone is the same, so do what you can to get the car fast, even with the ballast, i adjust that too to try to find just how to swing the back of the car around corners

According to OP:

Meetings on Thursdays: 14:00 PST = 22:00 GMT

Races on Wednesdays: 05:00 GMT on Thursday. 💡 let's change this, please. sixflags, most of your fanbase for the BTCC/WTCC will be in Europe. Having a time that will help European players will help. Because I'm in Canada, right now, that's 01:00 in my timezone, so I might make it, depending on how sleepy I am, etc.

What times are ideal for you?, that could be daytime for me

Hah, the most powerful car in the field ^^ I think a penalty needs to be put on the FR cars as in the real series.

all cars are 315, i had no power problem

 

[jammyrex]

Thanks

What lap times on average around Monza you guys doing? I'm doing 2:05s

I've been struggling with no ABS but I managed to clock a couple of 2:05s over a 10 lap stint and a few 2:06s. Hoping I'm not going to be too out of my depth here! Also trying to get used to a DFGT wheel and modulating the brake pedal is so hard... just keep locking up and fluffing the manual downshift. Worried I'd be hitting people in the race, but I guess more practice is needed to refine the technique, but any pointers on technique especially with this wheel would be very welcome!

Even with ABS I'm not a huge amount better though and I'm wondering if I've not got my car at the optimum? Currently the weight on my Civic is 1190 kg (stage 1 weight reduction with ballast added), 317 bhp NA (it was 315 but has crept up without me noticing lol!), 467 performance points. SS tyres and no extra wings others anything like that added. How does that compare with the Focus for example?

 

[Fuelmyfire]

Focus ST, 314 bhp, 1282kg (stage 3 with 96kg added), SS and aero at minimum. 480pp.

Did a few laps at Monza tonight averaging 2'06" with most high 2'05" quickest at 2'05.5". Abs off on a ds3 is very tricky...

The lack of abs adds between 0.5"-0.7".

Edit: changed some settings. 298bhp and 1190kg. New fastest time 2'04.4" with abs off of course.

 

[jammyrex]

Focus ST, 314 bhp, 1282kg (stage 3 with 96kg added), SS and aero at minimum. 480pp.

Did a few laps at Monza tonight averaging 2'06" with most high 2'05" quickest at 2'05.5". Abs off on a ds3 is very tricky...

The lack of abs adds between 0.5"-0.7".

Edit: changed some settings. 298bhp and 1190kg. New fastest time 2'04.4" with abs off of course.

Well at least our times sound fairly close although I have some more work to do. Just wondering why the PP on my car is a bit lower than the Focus? I've not got too much experience in tuning cars - have you got some sort of aero kit on yours, and will I have the option to do the same on my Civic?

Also I noticed you lowered your bhp then got a better lap time, just want to understand why and also just wondering what sort of other settings you changed? Cheers.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Sixflags48, you give me the times, and I show up. That's the deal.

 

[Fuelmyfire]

What I meant by most powerful is that it has a 3.0L engine compared to the other smaller ones in the other cars.

Jammy have you fully tuned your Civic's engine with parts? What was said earlier is that we will put all the parts we want on the engine and then limit the power back to the bhp cap. That should raise your PP. As an example I have everything installed except from the Engine Tune Stage 1,2 or 3. I assume that where it says no superchargers in the rules that applies to cars that do not naturally have a turbo/supercharger installed.

Also I have all the aero packages on the Focus (only the front that is for show and the back spoiler at minimum downforce) which increases the PP by about 5-7 or more depending on how much downforce you want. And yes you can put the aero packages on your Civic no problem, just go to the GT Auto and along to the body modification part.

The reason I went faster with less power is because previously I was lugging around 96kg of ballast to get to the PP cap. I swapped that around to only have 4kg of ballast and lose some BHP which results in a faster time (The difference was 92kg of ballast or 17 BHP, I'd take the BHP drop any day). I also tweaked the suspension quite a lot to get a nice turn in on the FF car with the LSD tuned to allow me to get good exit speed. I also changed the Brake Bias a lot to be able to brake pretty firmly without the thing locking up on me. Tuning is entirely personal feel so give yourself an hour or two to really get it nice and from there you can just tweak as you go.

Also manually changing the gear ratios can help a lot on a circuit like Monza, I found I was in 2nd at high RPM coming out from turn 2 which was creating wheel spin, lengthening the gear and adjusting the LSD removes this problem.

Sorry for the wall of text!

 

[raceorama123432]

What times are ideal for you?, that could be daytime for me

Earlier race times are needed. 8:30pm Wednesday UK, 2:30pm pacific, or one hour later on Fridays because I'm going to college again in two weeks and can't really get up at 4am Meeting times are fine!