GT5 damage modeling.

an insanely complex damdge model isnt needed

just something similer to what the game GTR offers would be fantastic

the PS3 has more than enough processing power to run similer physics to GTR - the greatest racing sim ever

i feel people should be expressing less about their hopes for better graphics - because GT has huge & glaring faults that are far more deserving attention than yet more improvements to the way the game looks
 
Badsight
GTR - the greatest racing sim ever
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Um i seriously don't think GTR is all that much betetr then GT4, yeah sure GTR is fun in all and to have 70 cars on a track, to me its a slightly more complex NASCAR game, with less LEFTS!!!!
 
On the damage front - there is one area where GT5 could do with some real changes - tires and brakes alone

Tire damage - slow leaks, flats, blow outs, lost wheels - all of these happen to racing cars and depending on how the car rides - each can generate very different changes to car handling - much more than we see in GT4 - TOCA 2 handles this area, but it isn't the last word in this area

Tire selection - different manufactures, compounds, and many different handling charactistics, including tire life

Tire and road interaction - cars should handle quite differently when the road gets a coating of rubber, oil, gas and water mixed on different surfaces

Brake fading, failure modes - again just modeling these can add some "interest" to your drive style.

Thats enough for now. :dopey:
 
FunInTheSun, those are brilliant ideas!

I would like to add the aerodynamics of the aerokits, spoilers and wings. they come off, you lose your downforce, stability, etc.
 
un_peacekeeper
FunInTheSun, those are brilliant ideas!

I would like to add the aerodynamics of the aerokits, spoilers and wings. they come off, you lose your downforce, stability, etc.
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I wonder if theres custimazation to cars, and liek if you buy a fron body kit, and it falls of during a race, due to lots of hitting other cars, i wonder if you have to buy another one? :D would be funny and cool.
 
to see absolutly brilliant damadge modelling (& car physics , AI ect ect)

install the game "G.T.R"

the DM doesnt need to be insanely complex - the basics will be ample
 
G.T.R. is designed to run on a hard drive based system. Of course it's more complex. Is it better? Meh, I've barely played mine. Of course I haven't played GT4 all that much more since I have dozens of games I'm slowly getting into, along with actual roleplaying, and designing an epic RP of my own, which I plan on turning into a fic this summer.

Anyway, with models as detailed as we're getting with GT5, damage will generate all sorts of data. Unless you have the lamest of damage graphics, thousands of polygons will be generated/loaded/whatever to the car model. Along with any physical penalties, that's a lot of data. Which means either GB cards or a hard drive. And you want this loaded fast, so this means a hard drive.

Frankly I'm not excited about damaging my cars. And I'd really hate to loose a lot of races simply because I lost to some arbitrary damage chance model. If it got very involved and costly, I'd just turn damage off.
 
GTR's damage works on the SB without using the Hard drive. You don't need a hard drive to have a game feature damae, look at Flat out, look at the Toca games, they all have great damamge models. Look at Driver 3, that had a great damage model. A hard drive isn't needed.
 
Maybe someone could do a poly/complexity inventory of those other games' cars. I bet that the damage modelling of a car in GT5 would equal the poly count of an entire car in those other games.

I can't remember if you can save your car damaged in GTR, but if you can, that means a hard drive is an integral part of it. Sure, a PC can carry a model in ram, and you have minimum specs for a PC to run any game these days, but the minimum specs for most PCs is considerable, and minimum specs will barely play games of this complexity. And when you have cars appearing around you in any PC racing game, it has to scavenge the polys from the environment. Given the graphic quality of GTR, who cares. But on something like GT4, I appreciate the fact that the backgrounds are lush and involved and draw in is almost undetectable.

I do like GTR, but you basically have two types of races, both very fast. No car collecting, no street racing, no hot rodding, no cool upgrading of cars, no rally. A lot of no's that I don't care for.
 
Nattefrost
They only need one damage modelling engine which takes all these variables into account, and every car will react differently to an impact.
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One damage model won't work for all cars. Cars that are made from steel and aluminum will dent when they're hit, but cars made from Carbon Fiber and Fiberglass will crack and shatter, they won't dent at all.

And as far as realistic damage goes, when an F1 car is hit it completely breaks apart and is no longer driveable, wheels break off, brake pads fade and shatter, how real is too real?

un_peacekeeper spoilers do effect how the cars handle in GT4, drive the Aston Martin DB9 at the Nurburgring without a spoiler then put one on and see how much better the grip is over the rear tires.

What I want to see in GT5 is more cars on the track, different classes, fuel weight making a difference, better AI, and online.
 
Tenacious D
I do like GTR, but you basically have two types of races, both very fast. No car collecting, no street racing, no hot rodding, no cool upgrading of cars, no rally. A lot of no's that I don't care for.
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thats because GTR is a simulation of the GT class race series & isnt in a comparable race "genre" as GT

GTL is the same as GTR where damadge is concerned - it isnt held over between races . why even bring that up ? what racing game is there that has given you the idear & worrie that this might take place ? talk about paranoia

collecting cars is a part of the graphically improved GTL tho - but thats besides the point - a Harddrive would be a performance addition for the PS3 , & even if we dont get it that doesnt mean the DM would have to be the same graphicall quality as the normal model - & so what if it is , the PS3 should have Ample power to run GT with a DM

i also think that randomness shouldnt be a part of the DM - they all should be running like perfect tuned cars , but why bring that up either - i swear people have had so cushy that they feel the need to invent stuff up as to why this is a bad idea

a DM is entirely necessary if GT is going to continue claiming to be a simulator . for too long its gone without
 
Uhm... yeah, whatever.

I posted in one of the GT4 damage threads saying that if damage was implemented that if I seriously wrecked a car (i.e. totalled, costing more to repair than replace), then I'd like to keep my wreck as is as a trophy of how poorly I'd done. I think it would be hilarious to see this in my garage. "Woah! Steve, back to driving school, dude!" :sly:

Frankly, I've seen about 15 people harping on how great it would be to wreck their cars. Out of the thousands that are a part of this community? Not a lot of people. I think the paranoid ones are the people scared to death they won't be able to destroy their cars. Oh well, if it does or doesn't make it, I'll still play it. You don't have to.

Also, if the damage models don't look as good as real life, like the original cars are, you're going to see flaming of GT5 like you haven't seen in a game yet.
 
furry 4skin
What I want to see in GT5 is more cars on the track, different classes, fuel weight making a difference, better AI, and online.
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From what I, and many other have concluded, fuel does have weight in the game, and it does effect performance. Less fuel = less weight, which in turn = a quicker car.
 
Tenacious D
Frankly, I've seen about 15 people harping on how great it would be to wreck their cars. Out of the thousands that are a part of this community? Not a lot of people. I think the paranoid ones are the people scared to death they won't be able to destroy their cars. Oh well, if it does or doesn't make it, I'll still play it. You don't have to.
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& how many kids have GT as their most complex racing game ? , i mean go to a proper sim community & try asking for the sequal to be free from real world damadge moddeling & see how well that goes down lol

seriously , with damadge on you will have to drive properly , no more bumping the AI out of the way , no more riding the outside barrier at full speed . this is a huge BS part of GT that needs scrapping if PD is trying to claim GT as being a simulation

it doesnt need to be as hideously complex as some make it out to be , many racing games (including some on consoles) already have damadge moddeling , GT needs to catch up & get real(istic)
 
Tenacious D
Maybe someone could do a poly/complexity inventory of those other games' cars. I bet that the damage modelling of a car in GT5 would equal the poly count of an entire car in those other games.

I can't remember if you can save your car damaged in GTR, but if you can, that means a hard drive is an integral part of it. Sure, a PC can carry a model in ram, and you have minimum specs for a PC to run any game these days, but the minimum specs for most PCs is considerable, and minimum specs will barely play games of this complexity. And when you have cars appearing around you in any PC racing game, it has to scavenge the polys from the environment. Given the graphic quality of GTR, who cares. But on something like GT4, I appreciate the fact that the backgrounds are lush and involved and draw in is almost undetectable.

I do like GTR, but you basically have two types of races, both very fast. No car collecting, no street racing, no hot rodding, no cool upgrading of cars, no rally. A lot of no's that I don't care for.
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The only time damage is saved is when you save during a race and your car has damage. It doesn't carry on.

GTR is a whole 'nother game. It's meant to give you the full experience of racing 400-600Hp cars at 140Mph+.
The physics in it are unmatched by anything on consoles, Enthusia the closest.

GT compared to GTR is nothing. 2 different games. GTR makes GT feel as arcadey as Test Drive.
 
If they do damage modelling, the AI would have to remain weak. Let's face it, cars that break or get damaged rarely win races.

I agree a hardcore setting with damage modeling would be interesting but I would hate it to be something that can't be turned off or was required for 100 percent. I hope they spend their time improving the AI, creating more courses, adding even more cars. Personally speaking, damage modelling would be one of the last things I'd want the programmers to work on.

I'm getting off subject a bit here but too much realism can be a bad thing. Take a car that goes off course into a gravel trap. That is usually the end of the day, especially when using racing tires. In GT you can plow through the dirt and make it back onto pavement. Should they correct for that inaccuracy? If there was damage modelling you would want those traps to be effective and stop the car's movement. Uh oh, here comes the crane...race over.

How about losing it in a turn and the car smashes into the railing, the entire side could easily be sheared off or bent in which would prevent any movement. Is that going to be fun in a race after 2 hours?

Taking hardcore realism all the way; after you crash hard should they make it so you lose your entire game as the doctor refuses to clear you for any more racing? Or maybe you just have a few broken bones and you'll have to waste 8 months of GT time to get back in. Now that's what I would call damage modelling. :)
 
VVENOM800TT
From what I, and many other have concluded, fuel does have weight in the game, and it does effect performance. Less fuel = less weight, which in turn = a quicker car.
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Well I haven't noticed it, but in any case they need to fix the AI so the computer doesn't always put in a full tank at every pit stop.

I think unrealistic damage modeling would be worse than no damage modeling at all. I don't want to go 200mph into a wall and just get a dent in the front end and maybe some suspension failure, that would just be cheesy. That would make the game worse before it made it better.

Does anyone know the date of PS3 event in February?
 
*McLaren*

GT compared to GTR is nothing. 2 different games. GTR makes GT feel as arcadey as Test Drive.
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We've been through this a dozen times or so. Getting professional racers to enthuse about a game they've been paid to endorse is kind of like, "so what?" You GTR fanatics get all defensive if someone doesn't wet themselves over your cherished idol. You guys need to quit interpreting what I say in your imaginations and let me speak for myself. Gee whiz.

Something which I feel is much more significant, is the statement by Kazunori-sama at the Gran Turismo 4 E3 conference, in which he stated that Nissan's chief test driver took GT4 for a spin, with a Skyline around Nurburgring and came within 6 seconds of his own best lap.

That speaks much louder than any words anyone can google up.
 
Tenacious D
We've been through this a dozen times or so. Getting professional racers to enthuse about a game they've been paid to endorse is kind of like, "so what?" You GTR fanatics get all defensive if someone doesn't wet themselves over your cherished idol. You guys need to quit interpreting what I say in your imaginations and let me speak for myself. Gee whiz.

Something which I feel is much more significant, is the statement by Kazunori-sama at the Gran Turismo 4 E3 conference, in which he stated that Nissan's chief test driver took GT4 for a spin, with a Skyline around Nurburgring and came within 6 seconds of his own best lap.

That speaks much louder than any words anyone can google up.
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oh please , your seriously trying to compare GT to GTR ? there is no comparison , sure GT has been game balanced towards RL times (shows in various ways like the gear settings as well for example) but that has nothing to do with how complex each is moddeled , in GT you have serious limitations & simplicity simply due to the hardware - PD could have given GT just as complex handeling physics as well as the same kind of Damadge Modelling as what GTR has , they obviously have serious programming talanet working for when you see how smoothly GT runs

but they didnt , because no way could the PS2 run it - your comparison is akin to F1 versus Go-Karts , seriously

theres no reason to think that GT5 couldnt be like what GTR is right now , the PS3 has the kind of power needed & PD know how to put together a racing sim

(& yes , the GT version of Nuremburgring is the best version ive ever tried , moreso than Forza's effort even)
 
Tenacious D
We've been through this a dozen times or so. Getting professional racers to enthuse about a game they've been paid to endorse is kind of like, "so what?" You GTR fanatics get all defensive if someone doesn't wet themselves over your cherished idol. You guys need to quit interpreting what I say in your imaginations and let me speak for myself. Gee whiz.

Something which I feel is much more significant, is the statement by Kazunori-sama at the Gran Turismo 4 E3 conference, in which he stated that Nissan's chief test driver took GT4 for a spin, with a Skyline around Nurburgring and came within 6 seconds of his own best lap.

That speaks much louder than any words anyone can google up.
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:lol:

Please don't tell me you think GT4 is on par with GTR in physics because 1 driver came up within his own time in real life. I'll bet you $50 these drivers don't play games much and most likely set these "real" times after 5 minutes of playing.

If you think that, I don't believe you've ever driven a car 40Mph+. :lol:

What about the people on this site setting times 1 minute faster than the fastest time in real life?
Yeah, and there's PROOF for that as well.

 
furry 4skin
One damage model won't work for all cars. Cars that are made from steel and aluminum will dent when they're hit, but cars made from Carbon Fiber and Fiberglass will crack and shatter, they won't dent at all.
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Exactly, and a single complete damage model will just take these things into account and calculate the outcome based on variables assigned to each sort of material. If PD says GT will have real-time damage, this is the kind of damage I'd expect, or I'd expect no damage at all.

Assuming PS3's Cell is as efficient at computing physics as claimed, this should be possible. We'll see if this turns out to be true or not.
 
furry 4skin
un_peacekeeper spoilers do effect how the cars handle in GT4, drive the Aston Martin DB9 at the Nurburgring without a spoiler then put one on and see how much better the grip is over the rear tires.
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been playing GT4 since day1, i think i ought to know. I was just saying that when damage occurs to the aerodynamic parts of the car, its function should be diminished and/or removed, depending on the situation.


I would like to add something. Imagine having bumpers falling tearing off, but not completely, so it is dragged by the car. This creates drag and very harsh friction, possibly causing sparks, and tearing more parts. Another use for this may be the bumper getting pushed into a tire, and having it damaged, or impeded by the friction.
 
I have to wonder about some of you "experts." Such as...

- How many of you actually own a car. What kind of car? How high a performance?

- How many of you have even driven a car.

- How many of you have actually raced a car, if only to have driven it quite fast. And not just straight line.

- And best of all, how many of you have actually driven a high performance car capable of competing in an enthusiast race competition.

I have a feeling that the number of even car owners isn't all that high.

I happen to own a 1987 Supra MkIII with a new engine and Dunlop Super Soprts, and it's very close to new condition, well taken care of. It may be something of a "Japanese Camaro," but unlike the American Camaro, you can actually take the thing around turns quite aggressively. Not like a Subaru WRX or Mitsu Evo VIII, but it's a serious sports car. Comparing the experience of a stock Supra MkIII with the car in GT4, it's very close. The performance, the tire squeal and the point at which you begin to loose grip is remarkably similar. And I've managed to keep up with another relative with his own MkIII Supra with the HP upped perhaps 60 or more.

I have another relative who's in the Nissan Group and participates in open SCCA meets. He owns a 1995 240SX which he is currently rebuilding by hand with a turbo mod into an SCCA competition car. He also owns a 2003 Nissan Sentra Spec-V, which for a front wheel drive vehicle is actually an excellent sports car, and performs superbly. I've driven them both and at least the 240 is very similar to the experience in GT4 - okay, in GT it's actually a 180, but still very close.

He's very picky about the racing feel of a game, and draws the line at basically two games, and that's the extent of his addiction:

Gran Turismo and Colim McRae Rally - at least I think that's the one. And CMR is brutal because the physics is supposedly dead accurate. Because you lack the tactile experience of being in the car, mistakes are common and can be race ending. Because GT is more forgiving, he barely ever touches CMR.

Since he's such an experienced driver in game and real life, I pestered him to try out GTR. He wouldn't install it on his PC so one time when he came over, he sat down at my rig which is still quite beefy with a GF 6800 GTS. And of course GTR looked ugly so his immediate reaction was, "Who are these guys? Don't they have a budget for graphic artists?"

So, he puts it into bumper cam and tears off. And... he doesn't like it. I forget exactly what he said but it was something like this:

"No game is going to give you an authentic driving experience, or do perfect car physics. The math and real life variables are just too complicated. Both of these do a good enough job to give you a great race, but they only go so far.

"Gran Turismo seems to have always had understeer issues. Of course everyone wants to take corners too fast. That's just adrenaline and overconfidence, which is probably why (a friend of ours) totalled his WRX. But it seems like GT4 is still too unforgiving in that aspect. (he mentioned a few more issues). But like you say, I feel like I'm connected to the car in GT4, even though I prefer bumper cam and you like roof cam.

"GTR is just... weird. I don't feel like I'm there much at all. It's a strange hovercar kind of feeling, and it doesn't let you know when you're loosing traction correctly (he went on to mention a few more issues). Maybe it really is like driving a supercar, because that's something we just can't know anything about, but (Colin McRae) seems a lot more realistic. Having a bunch of bots that act like people to race against is cool, but it's not as cool as having a car that feels right."

I'm not sure that saying the PS2 is incapable of doing proper car physics makes any sense, because otherwise games like TOCA and whatever else was mentioned wouldn't be a bit better, and I don't remember anyone saying that the PS2 is only going to give you an arcade racing experience no matter which game you favor.

And back to that Nissan Skyline lap done by the Nissan test driver. Looking at the records, I'd say the lap was probably about like mne, about 8 minutes. One record listed is 8:01.72, at a (top, avg?) speed of 153.984 km/h. if he was within 6 seconds of that, it's a discrepancy of just over 1%. So for a game to be 99% accurate, I think I'm plenty satisfied.

You GTR guys can quibble over your perhaps 1% better game if you like. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying Nurburgring. Taking a break for a bite.
 
GTR has proven how accutate it is using proper telemetry, GT4 hasn't. I'm not knocking GT4, it's very good but you don't get the power delivery you do in a real car, the handling is very good and with the N tyre's the grip levels arn't far off at all, but when you floor it you don't get the proper power delivery. It's like theres a level of TCS you can't turn off, that and the lack of a cockpit camera are my biggest gripes about GT4's driving realism. As for that statement and the Nissan Skyline, it's not hard to do, to tweak the in game car so it'll get similar lap times on a certain track. That doesn't mean it's accurate, I think they've done a damn good job, but I'm just pointing out, that itself doesn't mean it's accurate, that could just mean the variable's they gave that car mean it can do that lap time, two differenct cars can run the same lap time round the ring thereabouts, it doesn't mean the two cars are the same. You'd need to do that on a wide variety of tracks obviously using a percentage of time difference since 6 seconds round Tsukuba is a rather big difference ect. I do agree, GT4 is pretty damn good though, it'd be a hell of a lot better with a cockpit camera. As far as the variables they've used, the level of pysics doesn't comapre to GTR or LFS S2 or RFactor, but what PD have done with what they had to work with is praise worthy. One area they screwed u[p on is the race cars, it's so obviouse the race car's are off it's not funny. The road cars are great, the race cars are capapble of driving so much faster thanks to the miracle grip racing tyre's and that damn uncontrolable TCS or whatever you decide to call it that limit's your power delivery, it put's a downer on things a little imo.

And it's Kazunori-San ;).

As for Colin McRae rally, that's not close to realistic, never has been. Richard Burn's rally on the other hand is very close for a game, I think that's what you might have meant.
 
Tenacious D
I have to wonder about some of you "experts." Such as...

- How many of you actually own a car. What kind of car? How high a performance?

- How many of you have even driven a car.

- How many of you have actually raced a car, if only to have driven it quite fast. And not just straight line.

- And best of all, how many of you have actually driven a high performance car capable of competing in an enthusiast race competition.

I have a feeling that the number of even car owners isn't all that high.

And back to that Nissan Skyline lap done by the Nissan test driver. Looking at the records, I'd say the lap was probably about like mne, about 8 minutes. One record listed is 8:01.72, at a (top, avg?) speed of 153.984 km/h. if he was within 6 seconds of that, it's a discrepancy of just over 1%. So for a game to be 99% accurate, I think I'm plenty satisfied.

You GTR guys can quibble over your perhaps 1% better game if you like.
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~Uh yes actually. I own a GTO and a M3.
I've owned faster before.

~Again yes.

~Again, yes. I have raced my old Acura at Laguna Seca in the past.

~For the last part, yes. Plenty of times. I've driven Lamborghinis, Ferraris, high-powered Mercedes and BMWs, and more of that area.

GT4 is not 99% accurate. It's hardly accurate. A lot of the cars drive the same.

GT4's physics are just basic. They're nothing like a real high speed race. The driver's time is slow compared to GTP's.

If our members can achieve 5 minute times, GT4 is hardly accurate.

As for your GTR comment, I'll bet you think it's 1% better because it doesn't have a storyline, or any of that. It's not supposed to.
GTR's physics will always be more accurate, and realer than anything on the console right now.

In GT4, I can flat out push the gas all the way down, after a spin and the car will not spend out.
If I spin out in GTR, I can't floor it because I'll just end up spinned around.

Perhaps you can quibble over a game that just barely teaches you the basics of racing.
 
Tenacious D
And CMR is brutal because the physics is supposedly dead accurat.
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LMAO

CMR is a kiddie-arcade easy as you like rally game , you want physics in a rally sim ? then do yourself a favour & go buy Richard Burns Rally , if you get out of the rally school ill be impressed , lol

"dead accurate" LMAO ! !

& again LMAO ! ! ! . . . . . so you judge you games because of how your relative feels about them , oh please ! , why keep digging when you in it so deep! , because you have no clue dude
 
I disagree.

Particularly because Nurburgring is the ultimate race course. It's not ultimate because it's just long and challenging. It's the ultimate because it has every road characteristic short of a dead angle corner and gravel. That's why even though every car maker has a test track, when it comes down to it, they buy tinme at the Ring. That's why everyone's dream is to do the Ring. And trhat's why I disagree with your assertion that they need a variety of tracks. The Ring is the variety. And saying "it's not hard to do, to tweak the in game car so it'll get similar lap times on a certain track..." Uhm... this sounds like the definition of accuracy. Tweaking until you get a certain similarity of performance. Oh, and you're right, it's Richard Burns. It's been a couple of years actually since I watched him fire it up.

And you might say Kazunori-san, but to me it's it's Kazunori-sama. Look it up.

And *McLaren*, if you think that burning out and spinning in place proves a racer's worth, then, sit and spin, by all means. :sly:

Oh, and Badsight, ermmm... more below.
 
Tenacious D
I disagree.

Particularly because Nurburgring is the ultimate race course. It's not ultimate because it's just long and challenging. It's the ultimate because it has every road characteristic short of a dead angle corner and gravel. That's why even though every car maker has a test track, when it comes down to it, they buy tinme at the Ring. That's why everyone's dream is to do the Ring. And trhat's why I disagree with your assertion that they need a variety of tracks. The Ring is the variety. And saying "it's not hard to do, to tweak the in game car so it'll get similar lap times on a certain track..." Uhm... this sounds like the definition of accuracy. Tweaking until you get a certain similarity of performance. Oh, and you're right, it's Richard Burns. It's been a couple of years actually since I watched him fire it up.

And you might say Kazunori-san, but to me it's it's Kazunori-sama. Look it up.

And *McLaren*, if you think that burning out and spinning in place proves a racer's worth, then, sit and spin, by all means. :sly:
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I didn't say that. I used that as an example that GTR knocks the **** out of the crap PD causes realism.

You can't even do donuts, hardly burnouts either.
GTR is the more realistic game and that's a fact.


Yes, the 'Ring is nice, but not everyone wants to take the time do 1 lap. Perhaps they don't want a little bit of everything.

Tweaking doesn't mean 100% accuracy. Hell, I could look up a Spa record done by a Lister.
Afterwards, I can mess with the littlest thing to make my car exactly like the real deal.

But when I race it, will I get near the pro's time? Hell no. Why? He has more experience than I do driving the car, so it would take me a long time to get it. But if I did, it would probably show how much I have learned and that I could actually try one of the real deal GT cars.
 

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