GT5 Latest News & Discussion

[CodeRedR51]

Ah yes, another day in the GT5 argument thread.

 

[Anes]

To be fair, at current retail prices, the PS3 commands a premium over Xbox 360 that is equivalent to almost two years of free Xbox Live Gold. On top of that, the online and social aspect of Live is far, far greater and more mature than that of PSN, which feels weak and half-assed in comparison. Still, what do you expect for free? I feel that £30 - 35 a year for a properly maintained, centralised infrastructure with complete integration across all games is more than justified.

For that reason, I use my Xbox 360 for everyday gaming and for most multiplat games because that's what most of my mates have got. I now have a PS3 for GT5 and any other special exclusives, but that's all it will be for.

Actually once you buy all the accessories needed to play Xbox on the net the PS3 is cheaper. I've seen the sums layed out.

Also I disagree Xbox is mature. It's FULL of 13 year olds zZquiiiksc0pin Call of Duty.



Ps: I'm viewing the site and replying to on my PS3 after watching a Blu Ray movie 👍

 

[SolidSnakex]

Oh since we are talking about costs and hardware, I found a Logitech Driving Force GT on eBay just now for a buy it now price of $11.99+ free shipping. The item is located in Australia. Here is the item # 120628282114. Kinda strange that its so cheap and its like new condition. Just thought I'd mention it incase some people here are looking for a cheap wheel.

I find it very hard to believe that anyone would sell a DFGT for $12 even if it's been used for years. So a brand new one for that price seems very unlikely.

 

[LordVonPS3]

Oddly, Fanatec, the wheel manufacturer, agreed with me. Go read the thread I linked you to and tell them they don't know what they're talking about.

An HID wheel like the ones Logitech and Fanatec make will work on PS3 and PC. An XID wheel like the one Fanatec makes and the official XBox wheel will work on XBox, PS3 and PC. But a Logitech/Fanatec HID wheel will not work on XBox for hardware reasons - HID outputs cannot be intepreted by XID receivers, and the XBox360 is an XID receiver. Most older PCs were too, but the present standard is HID. So long as MS won't licence their chip to Logitech, Logitech have no reason to make an XID wheel, when all their wheels work on all PCs and PS3s. All Fanatec's wheels do too.

It's amazing that you still don't understand.

It would be trivial for Microsoft to write a simple bit of software to convert HID / XID to permit G25/7 wheels to work. It's USB. 2 pins for serial traffic. Microsoft could write a firmware patch update for this in under a day. The point is - Microsoft could support HID devices if they want to, there's even an open source project to convert HID / XID http://sourceforge.net/projects/xboxhid/

Microsoft controls their platform - yes or no?

 

[arvin charles]

Who cares what Microsoft bring out on the their next machine? So Forza 4 ends up being fantastic, amazing, everything GT5 is and more, with all official licenses and whatnot. Great, I'll buy their new machine and Forza 4 because I'll be bored of GT5/6 by then.

After that, PD will bring out GT7 on the next PlayStation and then it will swing the other way. It's called competition, and it's a good thing.

Exactly. I want Forza 4 to blow GT5 out of the water. Then I want GT6 to blow Forza 4 out of the water. Then I want Forza 5 to better GT6...You get the idea. I want them to push each other so that neither will grow stagnant.

I want to it to be the kind of one-upmanship game that Mitsu & Subaru play with the Evo & the WRX.

 

[Famine]

Ah yes, another day in the GT5 argument thread.

You know you're on a winner when a comment about wheel compatability meets with "good explanation" from a company that actually makes the wheels and "you don't know what you're talking about" from a forum random.

It's amazing that you still don't understand.

It would be trivial for Microsoft to write a simple bit of software to convert HID / XID to permit G25/7 wheels to work.

Or, in summary, the two pieces of hardware are not compatible. Making it... a hardware problem that is also all about the money.

Finished picking fights pointlessly now?

 

[Lilday]

To be fair, at current retail prices, the PS3 commands a premium over Xbox 360 that is equivalent to almost two years of free Xbox Live Gold. On top of that, the online and social aspect of Live is far, far greater and more mature than that of PSN, which feels weak and half-assed in comparison. Still, what do you expect for free? I feel that £30 - 35 a year for a properly maintained, centralised infrastructure with complete integration across all games is more than justified.

For that reason, I use my Xbox 360 for everyday gaming and for most multiplat games because that's what most of my mates have got. I now have a PS3 for GT5 and any other special exclusives, but that's all it will be for.

This is always the point that 360 owners put accross. But it is totally invalid. Here is why.

the online and social aspect of Live is far, far greater and more mature than that of PSN, which feels weak and half-assed in comparison.

OK, lets use our brains here. Both consoles allow a friends system, therefore YOU can choose who YOU play with. there is no level of 'maturity' if you are playing with people who you have chosen to play with. If you join a random game with random people in it, on both 360 and PS3 it is exactly the same. There are players of varying skill levels on both consoles. I honestly don't see where 360 players get the idea that Live is more mature.

The PS3 includes:
Web browser
PS Memories software
PS Photo Album software
Video editor & up-loader software
Vidzone (thousands of free music videos, including up to date charts)
PS Home (fun every once in a while)
Trophies (Yeah the xbox has achievements too)
access to the PS store with THOUSANDS of free items such as wallpapers, themes, demos and more
PS Video store to rent/purchase movies
Facebook integration

The only advantage 360 has over PS3 is cross game chat, and personally I would never use that feature so I don't mind. PSN has the quality of Live & gives you much more.

Bottom line...If MS made an xbox worth buying I'd buy one, but at the moment there is no attraction to the 360, the PS3 seems to do just about everything & more.

This post seems rather off topic and 'fanboy'ish, but it is on the topic of discussing F3 and GT5, whereby I have given the reasons why I prefer GT5. I have no motivation to purchase a 360. Who knows, if Forza 4 amazes me then I will buy a 360, but unless MS make use of Bluray technology I don't think that they will ever meet PS3 standards.

 

[Dave A]

Well I'm glad to see you are in agreement at least.

Unfortunately you don't know what you're talking about either.

It is NOT a hardware problem. It's a USB device. Obviously you've never programmed USB devices before. Microsoft could easily add an update to the X360 firmware to permit the G25/7 set of devices WITHOUT the hardware chip - but of course they won't do that. You don't need a hardware chip in a PC to use the XBox wheel - even if a few of the extra bits like rumble don't work.

Another example... G27's don't work properly with GT5P either... That's a software problem. Could fix. Won't fix without money. Hardware chips, software, doesn't matter... Logitech could come out with a wheel tomorrow with the relevant chip in. The point is they haven't because of money. If Microsoft + Turn 10 lock out car manufacturers and - dare I say it - get ahead of GT, then manufacturers like Logitech won't have a choice but to support Microsoft and when that happens they have to pay the extra - which means you have to pay the extra.

No, it IS a hardware problem, HID and XID feedback are different, the hardware required to work with one is different to the other, therefore it is a hardware problem. That's why so few wheels work on both, because they have to create a wheel with the hardware to support XID and HID together.

 

[lbsf1]

You know you're on a winner when a comment about wheel compatability meets with "good explanation" from a company that actually makes the wheels and "you don't know what you're talking about" from a forum random.



Or, in summary, the two pieces of hardware are not compatible. Making it... a hardware problem that is also all about the money.

Finished picking fights pointlessly now?

It is a hardware problem that microsoft are taking advantange off to make money.

There is that an ok compromise.

 

[LordVonPS3]

You know you're on a winner when a comment about wheel compatability meets with "good explanation" from a company that actually makes the wheels and "you don't know what you're talking about" from a forum random.

Or, in summary, the two pieces of hardware are not compatible. Making it... a hardware problem that is also all about the money.

Finished picking fights pointlessly now?

How is it a hardware problem when a Microsoft software fix can enable compatibility?

I'm not picking pointless fights - you are AND you're wrong to boot. My point was only about the money, you thought to nitpick as many others on this forum often do. Completely uncalled for and unwarranted. Typically "elitist".

If it was a hardware problem it would need to be multi-pin or a different / proprietary interface and not just a difference by XID / HID protocol. If you don't know what a comms protocol is, then look it up but I'll tell you now I know a lot more about this subject than you, so do yourself a favour.

 

[Famine]

It is a hardware problem that microsoft are taking advantange off to make money.

There is that an ok compromise.

It was my opening statement.

How is it a hardware problem when a Microsoft software fix can enable compatibility?

Fanatec disagree with you. Clicked on the link yet?

I'm not picking pointless fights - you are AND you're wrong to boot. My point was only about the money, you thought to nitpick as many others on this forum often do. Completely uncalled for and unwarranted.

Excuse me? Your first reponse was to completely misread my first line (or not read it at all) before you realised it was actually in agreement. You reacted angrily to someone agreeing!

If it was a hardware problem it would need to be multi-pin or a different / proprietary interface and not just a difference by XID / HID protocol.

That'd be an interface problem. Fanatec's XBox360-compatible wheel has additional hardware in it (along with the MS proprietary chip) to make it XBox360-compatible.

If you don't know what a comms protocol is, then look it up but I'll tell you now I know a lot more about this subject than you, so do yourself a favour.

Oh I'm sure you do - bear in mind that I already know what you do for a living (Belfast or London?) - but Fanatec agree with me. If you know a lot more about this subject than Fanatec, please feel free to let them know they don't know what they're talking about and come up with a cheaper alternative to their wheel. Hordes of admiring 360-owners will be beating a path to your door.

The reason why our wheels are a bit more expensive is that we made two independent sets of electronics into the wheel to get support for two consoles. This technology is pretty tricky and certainly the most advanced on the market today.

 

[FoolKiller]

Typically "elitist".

Why is it that when some doesn't agree with you they are automatically elitist? I mean, if someone is a GT fan and not scared of Forza you accused them of being elitist. Just because they don't see competition as a thing to fear like you do they are elitist?

but I'll tell you now I know a lot more about this subject than you, so do yourself a favour.

Now who is acting elitist?

 

[hornet_burnout]

"but I'll tell you now I know a lot more about this subject than you, so do yourself a favour."

I'd love to see "some forum random" teach "the all knowing" something. It's a rare occasion, we may be seeing history in the making

 

[Famine]

I'd genuinely like him to put his software-writing powers to use for the forces of good. I can't afford a Fanatec wheel, but I have a G25 and a DFP and I'd love to use them on Forza. Yes, I own copies of Forza games too and have a 360 to play them on. The shock.

 

[Khaddar]

Actually once you buy all the accessories needed to play Xbox on the net the PS3 is cheaper. I've seen the sums layed out.

What accessories are those? I seem to have forgotten to buy them.

 

[Perkel]

How is it a hardware problem when a Microsoft software fix can enable compatibility?

So it isn't hardware problem at all then ?

Yey i can finally play with my G25 on my X360 ! Wait ... i can't do that...

Do you have any patch for my G25 ? and how can I update it ? Oh wait i can't update software in my g25. I must install this X controler which is hardware...

It is hardware problem.

 

[LordVonPS3]

Fanatec disagree with you. Clicked on the link yet?

Fanatec can only do what Fanatec can only do - under license. That's (sadly) the whole point.

Excuse me? Your first reponse was to completely misread my first line (or not read it at all) before you realised it was actually in agreement. You reacted angrily to someone agreeing!

Agreeing that it comes down to money is one thing. Saying the problem is because of hardware is another. It would be a hardware problem if you needed another device to fix the compatibility issue.

Fanatec needs the additional hardware - just to get the license, Microsoft doesn't.

That'd be an interface problem. Fanatec's XBox360-compatible wheel has additional hardware in it (along with the MS proprietary chip) to make it XBox360-compatible.

Here's what Microsoft would need to do.

1. Disable device security (i.e. a problem in itself as you'd then get 'unofficial' support from every device manufacturer under the sun - even if they had to fake their connection string to pretend to be another device - in a look up table).

2. Code HID / XID protocol transport conversion. Trivial.

3. Find a way to code force feedback into a compatible format (this may take more time - hence why FFB would probably be 'broken' for some time)...

Microsoft would never have any intention of doing any of this of course.

Oh I'm sure you do - bear in mind that I already know what you do for a living (Belfast or London?)

Oh you think so? Hardware or software? Which department? You think looking up an IP address might give you some idea, but I'm afraid it only gives you a location & at best maybe a company name. Not particularly helpful if you happen to successfully contract for clients!

Feel free to PM me with what you think though! I may yet even enlighten you... ;-)

but Fanatec agree with me. If you know a lot more about this subject than Fanatec, please feel free to let them know they don't know what they're talking about and come up with a cheaper alternative to their wheel. Hordes of admiring 360-owners will be beating a path to your door.

Fanatec can't do anything about it given the current situation other than pay up. That's really been my whole point all along. They cannot just implement their own solution (in software or hardware). Microsoft licenses devices partly based on the implementation of this part.

 

[Anes]

What accessories are those? I seem to have forgotten to buy them.

I'm no expert but it was something like a wifi accessory plus a years membership to live adding up to over $100. There was more, if I can find it.


"An Xbox Live Starter Kit, which you'll find at most stores selling Xbox consoles or games, contains some vital components you'll need to get online. The kit includes a disc which updates yours Xbox Dashboard with Live functionality, a headset that you connect to your controller which allows you to interact with other gamers online, and some demo games. The AU$99.95 Xbox Live Starter Kit price also gives you a 12-month subscription to the Xbox Live service, which begins from when you first sign up."


Not even what I was looking for.


New Xbox 360 Wifi N Adapter Confirmed for $99.99 http://loot-ninja.com/2009/10/06/new-xbox-360-wifi-n-adapter-confirmed-for-99-99/


My point is, the PS3 comes with stuff standard that Xbox will charge you for. It's more expensive.

 

[dzidza]

I'd genuinely like him to put his software-writing powers to use for the forces of good. I can't afford a Fanatec wheel, but I have a G25 and a DFP and I'd love to use them on Forza. Yes, I own copies of Forza games too and have a 360 to play them on. The shock.

No shock

 

[PAPPACLART]

Is not true that most hardware to a degree is incompatible until software forms a relationship between the 2? Of course there are some very physical examples that no software could ever fix unless there is an addition of more hardware connecting the 2!

A PS2 or PS3 joypad is not traditionally compatible with a PC, the PS2 pad from a physical hardware perspective, and a PS3 pad from a software perspective as it does have a USB etc. But either from a hardware addition (PS2) or a software addition (PS3) both can be made to work.

If an API can build bridges between 2 hardware’s through software that don’t traditionally work together is it not right to say that the problem is no longer a hardware issue but now a software issue?

So if we are talking about wheels for the 360, if a software patch can allow for a wheel to work on a device despite hardware incompatibility then as mentioned the issue is no longer a hardware issue but that of a software issue.

Plonking a Cell processor into an Intel motherboard will not work, as that is a hardware issue. No amount of software can fix that, as I am sure a cell CPU does not even fit physically into an Intel CPU housing.

So from what I understand, the issue with the 360 and its wheels is that it is a hardware issue until a software solution can fix it, which in my mind makes it a software issue that requires software to fix it? Of course this conclusion only works in my mind if a software solution can indeed allow for certain other incompatible hardware to work togehter! (Does that sound right?)

Anyway I am not a competent programmer or a hardware specialist so please feel free to set me straight.

 

[Famine]

Fanatec can only do what Fanatec can only do - under license. That's (sadly) the whole point.

Agreeing that it comes down to money is one thing. Saying the problem is because of hardware is another. It would be a hardware problem if you needed another device to fix the compatibility issue.

Fanatec needs the additional hardware - just to get the license, Microsoft doesn't.

Fanatec's post in the thread I linked you to demarcates the hardware they implement to ensure dual device compatibility from the module Microsoft requires to permit licencing on the 360. That is, there are two different sets of hardware - MS's licence-requirement module and XID compatible force feedback hardware.

The problem is with force feedback, you see. The HID wheels rely on everything being worked out for them - the magnitude and direction of force feedback associated with an action in the given software. XID wheels don't - they require a feedback profile to be given to them and they then work out the magnitude and direction of force feedback associted with that profile. This is a slightly smarter way of doing it - the console uses less processor load for the same result, but it requires the wheel to take up some of the load itself, and HID wheels are simply not able to do it because they are lacking the requisite on-board hardware. This is why Fanatec's 911 wheel is unique - and able to command such a high unit price.

Seriously, the link I gave you in that first post covers it all. Fanatec is a member here.

Here's what Microsoft would need to do.

1. Disable device security (i.e. a problem in itself as you'd then get 'unofficial' support from every device manufacturer under the sun - even if they had to fake their connection string to pretend to be another device).

2. Code HID / XID protocol transport conversion. Trivial.

3. Find a way to code force feedback into a compatible format (this may take more time - hence why FFB would probably be 'broken' for some time)...

Microsoft would never have any intention of doing any of this of course.

And it's the last step that's a hardware problem. Why wouldn't they do it? Money.

And control, frankly.

Oh you think so? Hardware or software? Which department? You think looking up an IP address might give you some idea, but I'm afraid it only gives you a location & at best maybe a company name. Not particularly helpful if you happen to successfully contract for clients!

Feel free to PM me with what you think though! I may yet even enlighten you... ;-)

I didn't say I knew exactly what you do for a living. Many people for many years thought I was a teacher because I worked in a school. I wasn't, but what I did for a living was educate children. Similarly I know what your company does but, even if I did know your exact role, I wouldn't reveal it in on GTP either in public or in private (quick rule of forum privacy - always assume it's public).

Fanatec can't do anything about it given the current situation other than pay up. That's really been my whole point all along. They cannot just implement their own solution (in software or hardware). Microsoft licenses devices partly based on the implementation of this part.

They need to pay up to get the wheel to work on 360. They need their own hardware solution to get the wheel to work on that and everything else as well.

It is peculiar that there is such a quantity of wheels for PC and PS3, yet Microsoft have chosen one random and previously barely-known company to allow to develop their wheel for the 360 - and even odder that Fanatec would have chosen the 360 to develop their wheel for, knowing this.

 

[Tenacious D]

I agree many are "scared" as you say. Scared their "side" will be beaten by the "other" guys.

Well, a lot of us are scared in that way. Many fans want to see "their team" be the best.

But the rest of us are aware of what Micro$oft is all about. As a monopoly, they've become a technological mafia since the 90s, and many of us are aware that their somewhat discredited "embrace, extend and extinguish" philosophy is real. In other words, take what's good in the market, see if it can be improved, and then pay whatever it takes and work as long as it takes to make it exclusive, so that eventually you can only get it from Microsoft.

iTunes being created by Apple is fine. The other music download services are still doing their own thing. But MS setting up a serious music service like that would mean danger to the entire market, because they would do whatever it takes to make it difficult to impossible to legally carry on an internet business. Or, structure the market legally so that everyone has to pay MS also for some idiotic patent they'll make that is part of some net or music distro system that has already been patented or trademarked, but because of our brain dead patent system, will sneak in under the radar. Don't believe me?

Microsoft recently patented the graphic of "page turning" in visual devices, which could be trouble for companies such as Amazon and Apple which spent a lot of work to put this technology in their products.

Microsoft patents page turning graphic

Microsoft was evidently in collusion with Immersion over the lawsuit against SONY for the inclusion of "rumble" devices in the PS3 controller. It became known that MS was going to get a portion of the settlement from SONY when the case was settled, even to having to pay an amount for every Playstation game sold! SONY managed to torpedo Microsoft's insidious settlement plans by settling out of court with Immersion. Man, was MS mad...

Microsoft's scheme backfires

How about Microsoft patents the privileges of a user

Or Microsoft patents automatic OS shutdown?

For that matter, Microsoft patents double clicking with a button.

In the same article:

Late last year, Microsoft began demanding royalty payments for the use of its FAT (file allocation table) system, for which it was granted a patent in 1996. A group called the Public Patent Foundation in April called for that patent to be revoked, claiming that this amounted to an abuse of monopoly power by Microsoft.

"Microsoft is using its control over the interchange of digital media to aid its ongoing effort to deter competition," the group said. "The ... patent is causing immeasurable injury to the public by serving as a tool to enlarge Microsoft's monopoly while also preventing competition."

Kids, there are THOUSANDS of these instances with Microsoft. This is why allowing M$ to invade every area of our digital lives is a bad, BAD idea. This is also why I'm likely done buying anything from Microsoft. I know this is way OT, but it needs to be pointed out to the unaware.

 

[Killa Aaron]

SNIP

Seriously you need to drop it cause you are off topic, and if you keep on ranting about this you will get a warning from the mods and on top of that this has nothing to do at all with GT5 news discussion, take it to the correct threads.

 

[Famine]

Seriously you need to drop it cause you are off topic, and if you keep on ranting about this you will get a warning from the mods and on top of that this has nothing to do at all with GT5 discussion.

I am a mod - look at the badge - and I'm holding this dicussion with him. I don't mind this current sidebar, so long as it remains civil.

 

[Khaddar]

I'm no expert but it was something like a wifi accessory plus a years membership to live adding up to over $100. There was more, if I can find it.


"An Xbox Live Starter Kit, which you'll find at most stores selling Xbox consoles or games, contains some vital components you'll need to get online. The kit includes a disc which updates yours Xbox Dashboard with Live functionality, a headset that you connect to your controller which allows you to interact with other gamers online, and some demo games. The AU$99.95 Xbox Live Starter Kit price also gives you a 12-month subscription to the Xbox Live service, which begins from when you first sign up."


Not even what I was looking for.


New Xbox 360 Wifi N Adapter Confirmed for $99.99 http://loot-ninja.com/2009/10/06/new-xbox-360-wifi-n-adapter-confirmed-for-99-99/


My point is, the PS3 comes with stuff standard that Xbox will charge you for. It's more expensive.

And if you don't need them, it's cheaper. I use a wired connection on both my Xbox and my PS3, and haven't bought any accessories for either.

As for LIVE subscription, the original post which you responded to stated that the difference in cost between the consoles pays for two years' subscription.

 

[Killa Aaron]

I am a mod - look at the badge - and I'm holding this dicussion with him. I don't mind this current sidebar, so long as it remains civil.

Well it looks like it will soon escalate, cause he's not understanding you or reading the proof provided.

 

[Dapper]

http://boardsus.playstation.com/t5/Gran-Turismo-Series/Logitech-deals/td-p/46187402

It worked for me, a G27 is next to my bed still in the box. Last day though!

 

[hardvibes]

I am a mod - look at the badge - and I'm holding this dicussion with him. I don't mind this current sidebar, so long as it remains civil.

I don't know you but I'd get pretty mad if someone replied to me saying out of the box "you don't know what you're talking about"

 

[amar212]

Hail the Almighty LORDvonPS3, King of all Mortals! Obey his power of explanation the unexplainable and closing his eyes to all the practical evidence that contradict his theoretic remarks!

I'm humbly forwarding you to mine 2009 post on NeoGaf regarding this particular issue where yourhighness can witness the further claims of Logitech developers regarding whole XID/HID bullcrap decisions made by Microsoft regarding X360 - and the problems of it's implementations.

I humbly hope that my small intrusion will not upset your highfull stances!

With kindest regards from one small mortal I remain deeply hopeful for your divine nudge!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15859760&postcount=1

 

[Anes]

As for LIVE subscription, the original post which you responded to stated that the difference in cost between the consoles pays for two years' subscription.

Yeah but an Xbox won't even last the two years




I'm not getting involved in this console crap. I've owned both, and I have a preference.

fin