GT5 Latest News & Discussion

[LordVonPS3]

Is not true that most hardware to a degree is incompatible until software forms a relationship between the 2?

A PS2 or PS3 joypad is not traditionally compatible with a PC, the PS2 pad from a physical hardware perspective, and a PS3 pad from a software perspective as it does have a USB etc. But either from a hardware addition (PS2) or a software addition (PS3) both can be made to work.

If an API can build bridges between 2 hardware’s through software that don’t traditionally work together is it not right to say that the problem is no longer a hardware issue but now a software issue?

So if we are talking about wheels for the 360, if a software patch can allow for a wheel to work on a device despite hardware incompatibility then as mentioned the issue is no longer a hardware issue but that of a software issue.

Plonking a Cell processor into an Intel motherboard will not work, as that is a hardware issue. No amount of software can fix that, as I am sure a cell CPU does not even fit physically into an Intel CPU housing.

So from what I understand, the issue with the 360 and its wheels is that it is a hardware issue until a software solution can fix it, which in my mind makes it a software issue that requires software to fix it? Of course this conclusion only works in my mind if a software solution can indeed allow for certain other incompatible hardware to work togehter! (Does that sound right?)

Anyway I am not a programmer or a hardware specialist so please feel free to set me straight

More or less. Basically...

1. If you can plug A and B together (e.g. 8 pin USB male / female), that's a good start.
2. If devices A and B share the same device controller type, (e.g. USB) that's also important.
3. After this, anything & everything can be done or emulated in software via O/S patches, firmware patches (if one / other devices can be flashed) or a device driver.

Microsoft can do whatever they want in s/w on their own platform, they could make all devices compatible if they so wanted but it would come at a price to them.

It's all doable & I've done it myself since the days of serial / parallel / RS485 port & ISA / PCI card stuff to more modern day ethernet & USB. Most dev kit devices are flashable, but for final, production h/w it's cheaper to write to ROM and ship. It just means that later on you may have to do some patching on the PC / other to fix compatibility issues... In as far as stock control and shipping, etc goes... Quite often manufacturers will change the h/w internals (chips, PCB, etc) to save costs and may ship EPROMs as well anyway - so some devices can be rescued by flashing rather than soldering a new ROM with new firmware.

 

[fasj6418]

Ah yes, another day in the GT5 argument thread.

Pretty much. It´s just fights, rants and a bunch on nonsense. Hopefully we will have real news to talk about it soon. Only 32 days left

 

[PAPPACLART]

I don't know you but I'd get pretty mad if someone replied to me saying out of the box "you don't know what you're talking about"

Happens all the time on these forums. Lots of people that think they know allot, also with some that do know allot.

That is always the problem with debate. People always think they are right, and it is quite natural, the problem lies when somebody is proven wrong but does not back down!!

I guess there is no harm telling somebody that they do not know about the subject they are debating with you providing that there is some truth to what you say. Either way though it can be annoying! hehe

Anyway, can we get back to GT5?

Do we have any people at this expo? I am in London on the 4th and should be there to colect my pre-order from game when it finally ships. It will be interesting if I can us GT anywhere on my mobile phone? That will be relly cool. Imagine taking a dump while at work managing and racing some of your spec B drivers!! hehe

 

[Dapper]

Obey his power of explanation the unexplainable and closing his eyes to all the practical evidence that contradict his theoretic remarks!

Aristotle reincarnated!

 

[bcb]

Well, a lot of us are scared in that way. Many fans want to see "their team" be the best.

But the rest of us are aware of what Micro$oft is all about. As a monopoly, they've become a technological mafia since the 90s, and many of us are aware that their somewhat discredited "embrace, extend and extinguish" philosophy is real. In other words, take what's good in the market, see if it can be improved, and then pay whatever it takes and work as long as it takes to make it exclusive, so that eventually you can only get it from Microsoft.

iTunes being created by Apple is fine. The other music download services are still doing their own thing. But MS setting up a serious music service like that would mean danger to the entire market, because they would do whatever it takes to make it difficult to impossible to legally carry on an internet business. Or, structure the market legally so that everyone has to pay MS also for some idiotic patent they'll make that is part of some net or music distro system that has already been patented or trademarked, but because of our brain dead patent system, will sneak in under the radar. Don't believe me?

Microsoft recently patented the graphic of "page turning" in visual devices, which could be trouble for companies such as Amazon and Apple which spent a lot of work to put this technology in their products.

Microsoft patents page turning graphic

Microsoft was evidently in collusion with Immersion over the lawsuit against SONY for the inclusion of "rumble" devices in the PS3 controller. It became known that MS was going to get a portion of the settlement from SONY when the case was settled, even to having to pay an amount for every Playstation game sold! SONY managed to torpedo Microsoft's insidious settlement plans by settling out of court with Immersion. Man, was MS mad...

Microsoft's scheme backfires

How about Microsoft patents the privileges of a user

Or Microsoft patents automatic OS shutdown?

For that matter, Microsoft patents double clicking with a button.

In the same article:


Kids, there are THOUSANDS of these instances with Microsoft. This is why allowing M$ to invade every area of our digital lives is a bad, BAD idea. This is also why I'm likely done buying anything from Microsoft. I know this is way OT, but it needs to be pointed out to the unaware.

Thank you! 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

 

[Khaddar]

I'm not getting involved in this console crap. I've owned both, and I have a preference.

Nothing wrong with having a preference. However you started "this console crap" by claiming the Xbox was more expensive by the time you could play it online. I don't care if you want to slate the Xbox, I have no vested interest in it, but at least use one of the genuine reasons.

 

[analog]

Which is why I've always found TG a strange match-up to GT, since it's definitely not about the silliness.

I think part of the reason Kaz himself seems to like this show might simply have to do with the fact he can never say the things they say on Top Gear regarding certain cars or brands without it possibly having consequences for licences, brand relations or the unbiased reputation of PD and GT in general.
And ofcourse adding content of a worldwide popular TV-series with a largely overlapping target audience is a stroke of genius marketingwise ( whether you actually like the show or not ).
Although I agree there seems to be an odd discrepancy in combining the two.

It's a different type of show. Top Gear is steadily becoming less about cars and more about scripted comedy.

Unlike what appears to be mostly spontaneous, most of Top Gear has been scripted for as long as the current series exists ( and probably before as well ).
In fact the script-editor of TG ( or Clarkson and co's puppetmaster ) is Richard Porter, a car journalist who also has his own satirical car website www.sniffpetrol.com ( strong language warning ) which I find a very funny read ( often funnier than Top Gear to be honest ) once in a while.

 

[bcb]

I am a mod - look at the badge - and I'm holding this dicussion with him. I don't mind this current sidebar, so long as it remains civil.

Nice badge oh omnipotent one. So it's ok for you to hold discussions unrelated but then rag on people for doing the same?

 

[Soundtrack]

1. If you can plug A and B together (e.g. 8 pin USB male / female), that's a good start.
2. If devices A and B share the same device controller type, (e.g. USB) that's also important.
3. After this, anything & everything can be done or emulated in software via O/S patches, firmware patches (if one / other devices can be flashed) or a device driver.

Sure enough, the locking of the 360 to the “mainstream” wheel controllers was based on a $pecific $trategy. However, considering Microsoft ceased the production of their own branded device, and given the limited amount of alternatives on the market; this blockade doesn’t make any sense now. There are indeed lots of G-whatever owners that would walk the Box/Forza path, if only that was possible.

And if that was just a firmware update matter, I’m pretty sure we would have already seen it! Either from Microsoft, Logitech, or a bunch of fanatic geeks who don’t give a 🤬 about licensing issues.

Microsoft can do whatever they want in s/w on their own platform, they could make all devices compatible if they so wanted but it would come at a price to them.

Microsoft could write a firmware patch update for this in under a day

 

[Famine]

Nice badge oh omnipotent one. So it's ok for you to hold discussions unrelated but then rag on people for doing the same?

Wholly.

Even better, I'm allowed to swear and post pornographic images that I've stolen from their copyright holders.

 

[bcb]

Hail the Almighty LORDvonPS3, King of all Mortals! Obey his power of explanation the unexplainable and closing his eyes to all the practical evidence that contradict his theoretic remarks!

I'm humbly forwarding you to mine 2009 post on NeoGaf regarding this particular issue where yourhighness can witness the further claims of Logitech developers regarding whole XID/HID bullcrap decisions made by Microsoft regarding X360 - and the problems of it's implementations.

I humbly hope that my small intrusion will not upset your highfull stances!

With kindest regards from one small mortal I remain deeply hopeful for your divine nudge!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15859760&postcount=1

Nice smugness oh "Lord of the Winds" Nobody is threatening your god like status here.

 

[hornet_burnout]

@Tenacious D

That argument can be used about Sony. They are in the TV/MultiMedia/Console/PC business and "want to rule the world" as much as MS, and have invested billions in GT.

People just don't hate them as much as they do MS.

 

[bcb]

Wholly.

Even better, I'm allowed to swear and post pornographic images that I've stolen from their copyright holders.

Please do. You would be representing gtplanet well.

 

[Tenacious D]

@Tenacious D

That argument can be used about Sony.

Hardly.

Give me an article which states, "Every TV made means money for $ONY." Or "Want to buy a PC? Pony up to $ONY."

The MS monopoly empire is why I was horrified, as were many in the tech field, when MS became involved in HD-DVD, and produced or helped to produce the codec for the format. Everyone realized that there would be a hefty licensing fee paid to MS if they wanted to have their product on that disc.

It seems many people don't understand what being a monopoly really means.

 

[LordVonPS3]

Fanatec's post in the thread I linked you to demarcates the hardware they implement to ensure dual device compatibility from the module Microsoft requires to permit licencing on the 360. That is, there are two different sets of hardware - MS's licence-requirement module and XID compatible force feedback hardware

The license requirement module comes down to simple encrypted handshake routine. It could be disabled on the X360 O/S very simply by rem'ing out any calls within that method / function. The FFB is a touch more tricky, but still doable.

Anyway, it's not particularly important as Microsoft is never going to unlock their system to any and all manufacturers, but the point to make is that it's not a hardware problem when it could but won't be fixed in software.

The problem is with force feedback, you see. The HID wheels rely on everything being worked out for them - the magnitude and direction of force feedback associated with an action in the given software. XID wheels don't - they require a feedback profile to be given to them and they then work out the magnitude and direction of force feedback associted with that profile. This is a slightly smarter way of doing it - the console uses less processor load for the same result, but it requires the wheel to take up some of the load itself, and HID wheels are simply not able to do it because they are lacking the requisite on-board hardware. This is why Fanatec's 911 wheel is unique - and able to command such a high unit price.

Seriously, the link I gave you in that first post covers it all. Fanatec is a member here.

And it's the last step that's a hardware problem.

Again, it is not a hardware problem and could just as easily be sorted out through a bit of software emulation on the X360 side. Sending a HID wheel the relevant information isn't impossible, nor difficult - just different software instructions.

Why wouldn't they do it? Money.
And control, frankly.

Absolutely.

I didn't say I knew exactly what you do for a living. Many people for many years thought I was a teacher because I worked in a school. I wasn't, but what I did for a living was educate children. Similarly I know what your company does but, even if I did know your exact role, I wouldn't reveal it in on GTP either in public or in private (quick rule of forum privacy - always assume it's public).

I doubt you could know unless you happened to be able to acquire a list of contractors / suppliers from the company / companies belonging to whatever IP's you've scanned anyway... or perhaps you know someone who knows someone who maybe knows someone!?! Haha... 👍

Educating children is very noble, especially these days.

They need to pay up to get the wheel to work on 360. They need their own hardware solution to get the wheel to work on that and everything else as well.

Yes.

It is peculiar that there is such a quantity of wheels for PC and PS3, yet Microsoft have chosen one random and previously barely-known company to allow to develop their wheel for the 360 - and even odder that Fanatec would have chosen the 360 to develop their wheel for, knowing this.

Random and previously barely known? The X360 wheel isn't being produced anymore. You'll find that the wheel Microsoft will (is?) semi-officially supporting (now) is being made by Mad Catz. Of course in about a month's time no-one wheel need steering wheels, right?

 

[Abraxas]

On topic: been looking for tweets from Eurogamer, and most of them was "dissapointed" :/ It could be some old demo, becouse some of them says that it even don't look so good :|

 

[wajdi1977]

I find this interesting to read!
http://www.rundlc.com/news/gran-turismos-visual-evolution/

 

[bullie77]

@Tenacious D

That argument can be used about Sony. They are in the TV/MultiMedia/Console/PC business and "want to rule the world" as much as MS, and have invested billions in GT.

People just don't hate them as much as they do MS.

Exactly!

Look, this is quite ridiculous if you think about it. There are 2 giant companies trying to sell their stuff to people. It's a multi-billion dollar business so obviously each one of them is going to use whatever "weapons" they can in order to take a biggest chunk of the market than the other. This is valid either of videogames business, to auto business, or the cookies business.

Microsoft has a console. Their market strategy is to make the greater revenue out of it as possible, either by making their console compatible only to the periphals they licensed (and for which periphals manufacters have to pay them!), or by allowing online connection of their console by paid-subscription only. It's a legitimate strategy, either you agree with it or not. Sony had optate differently. It's also their right to do it.

It is us, costumers - the whole reason why the exist in the first place - to choose for whichever brand we want. Or both even. That's the beauty of it - the decisive power is in our hands (We are the money guys, not them. They have the money we choose to give them).

So, having that said, it is pretty ridiculous to fear, to be scared, to be envy, to rant or whatever a different system than the one you got. You have what you choose to have. As well it is pretty ridiculous to feed irrational aversion to a specific brand because we don't like the way they conduct their business. It's simple, don't buy it.

I hope GT5 is a GREAT game. And I hope FM4 will be even a GREATER one that would make me to buy an Xbox. And I hope that PD's answer to it, GT6, would be even greater. And so on, so on... It will be always in my benefit.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Hardly.

Give me an article which states, "Every TV made means money for $ONY." Or "Want to buy a PC? Pony up to $ONY."

It seems many people don't understand what being a monopoly really means.

I don't see them as monopoly when there are alternatives. You can go about your life without paying them a cent, as you decided to do.

My point is that they try (very hard, granted) to be one, and are all about the money, and that can be said to most major manufacturers. They have just been more successful at it.

Edit:
- Why do you think GT is a PS exclusive, and not cross platform?
(and I still believe they delayed GT in March to sell 3D Tvs as well)

 

[Famine]

Please do. You would be representing gtplanet well.

Sadly, for you, the reason I have that badge is because I'm entrusted not only to read the AUP and accept it, but to interpret it and enforce it using judgement that the site owner feels is suitable to replace his own on almost every occasion.

In this instance I judge this topic (the one about steering wheels) to not be unsuitable for this thread. You might disagree but, crucially, if you do, no-one cares.

Random and previously barely known?

I meant Fanatec...

Of course in about a month's time no-one wheel need steering wheels, right?

If Microsoft can get the Kinect cracked, we'll only need to think in Russian to get our cars to do what we want...

 

[bcb]

Sadly, for you, the reason I have that badge is because I'm entrusted not only to read the AUP and accept it, but to interpret it and enforce it using judgement that the site owner feels is suitable to replace his own on almost every occasion.

In this instance I judge this topic (the one about steering wheels) to not be unsuitable for this thread. You might disagree but, crucially, if you do, no-one cares.

Awwwwww. Poor me, nobody cares about me on a forum on the internet. Oh, how I am shamed. I just think it is funny that a pixelated badge means something.

 

[SuperShouden]

Just realized that if only one group of people were modeling the premium cars, then they could never model 200 + cars in 5 years. It's an average of about 50 cars a year (making it 250 Premium models), but if one team was working on them and it takes about 4 to 6 weeks, that's less than 12 cars a year. If my math is correct, then there's about 4 or 5 teams working on premium cars at once. And several other teams working on tracks. But, at 50 cars a year, even if the next GT comes out in another 3 years, that's 150 more Premium cars making the total around 400. However, PD could get more people making cars and increase the number of cars being modeled...especially if they don't add a lot of new tracks to GT6.

 

[hardvibes]

I find this interesting to read!
http://www.rundlc.com/news/gran-turismos-visual-evolution/

Cool
By the way...first pic is GT2, not GT1

 

[FoolKiller]

Just realized that if only one group of people were modeling the premium cars, then they could never model 200 + cars in 5 years. It's an average of about 50 cars a year (making it 250 Premium models), but if one team was working on them and it takes about 4 to 6 weeks, that's less than 12 cars a year. If my math is correct, then there's about 4 or 5 teams working on premium cars at once. And several other teams working on tracks. But, at 50 cars a year, even if the next GT comes out in another 3 years, that's 150 more Premium cars making the total around 400. However, PD could get more people making cars and increase the number of cars being modeled...especially if they don't add a lot of new tracks to GT6.

Your math is off because it is assuming that one team is only working on one car at a time. Say a team has 10 members. Member one completes his part on a car and passes it to member two and then starts on a new car while member two begins his part of the car he just received. So, one team is working on the same number of cars as there are team members. A 10 member team is working on 10 cars (possibly more) at once.

Think of an assembly line in a car factory. One car might take a week to build, but they don't just build one car at a time and hundreds roll out every day.

 

[infamousDee]

Awwwwww. Poor me, nobody cares about me on a forum on the internet. Oh, how I am shamed. I just think it is funny that a pixelated badge means something.

I'm glad you find that funny. I find it ironic that you appear to care so much about a moderator apparently violating the AUP he enforces by indulging in off-topic conversation, yet you think nothing of trolling this topic by challenging that moderator's authority in the manner you just did there.

 

[Spagetti69]

Stay out Dee, officer Famine will deal with it.

 

[infamousDee]

Stay out Dee, officer Famine will deal with it.

Fair enough. I know my place.

 

[Killa Aaron]

Your math is off because it is assuming that one team is only working on one car at a time. Say a team has 10 members. Member one completes his part on a car and passes it to member two and then starts on a new car while member two begins his part of the car he just received. So, one team is working on the same number of cars as there are team members. A 10 member team is working on 10 cars (possibly more) at once.

Think of an assembly line in a car factory. One car might take a week to build, but they don't just build one car at a time and hundreds roll out every day.

it was in the GT5P credits iirc that 31 people work on cars, 23 people work on tracks and 6 people work on sound i might be slightly off.

 

[TouringDevotee]

If Microsoft can get the Kinect cracked, we'll only need to think in Russian to get our cars to do what we want...

I hope that no one is planning a TVR joke.

 

[LordVonPS3]

I meant Fanatec...

LOL.

If Microsoft can get the Kinect cracked, we'll only need to think in Russian to get our cars to do what we want...

Try Arabic...

Hail the Almighty LORDvonPS3, King of all Mortals! Obey his power of explanation the unexplainable <snip>

Well... That would be a nice start!

I'm humbly forwarding you to mine 2009 post on NeoGaf regarding this particular issue where yourhighness can witness the further claims of Logitech developers regarding whole XID/HID bullcrap decisions made by Microsoft regarding X360 - and the problems of it's implementations.

I humbly hope that my small intrusion will not upset your highfull stances!

With kindest regards from one small mortal I remain deeply hopeful for your divine nudge!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15859760&postcount=1

Yes, as I said - force feedback would be broken and so this would require emulation... With kindest regards Amar, the answer is in your own post...

MS is using a special USB and input protocol (XID) but more important they decided to use a completely different method of generating FF effects. On the PC or PS3 FF effects are created in the console and the console only sends out Force commands to the motor (left, right and how strong). This consumes some CPU power. Therefore MS decided to put a lot of pre-defined FF commands into the IC of the wheel and the console sends something like ("play FF effect #24" = "shaking while driving over rough surface").

That it's using a XID protocol isn't a major problem as that's just protocol conversion.

If then - basic functions (i.e. steer / accel / brake - not FFB) are working with a connected HID wheel, you now need to send it different commands for FFB. Perhaps it would 'feel' different to playing with a generic Microsoft wheel - as you may not have the same range of "commands" but it would be possible to do some emulation in software - if Microsoft & Turn 10 wanted to spend the time and effort developing it. To argue it's not possible at all in software really is quite stupid. PS3+GT5P supports HID devices and pretty good FFB, so clearly it is not the amount of controller chatter Vs CPU load creating a problem (in fact - I find this laughable)!

In the end, what's the point in Microsoft doing all this extra work when they have a solution & can make money out of selling it both to gamers and manufacturers? At least you acknowledge that Logitech isn't willing to pay up - yet. If and when Logitech does - the wheel will cost you more and Microsoft will make a small cut on selling their solution.

We'll see if manufacturers are forced to change their minds if (and then when) Microsoft dominates this market. Microsoft can afford to keep paying out large license fees and attracting gamers. Console device manufacturers already aren't happy paying but if they've got no other choice they'll do it and they'll charge you for the privilege.