GT5 "Spec 2.0" Discussion Thread - Read the First post!

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

If PD can make it so there are limitations to what cars you take onto the track, and the A.I. goes in with cars with similar power to you, and fixes the A.I. issues, then A-Spec can be pretty enjoyable. Other sims have been doing real good A.I. for a while now, and have some pretty intense and fun career modes. It's only GT5 that has lagged way behind.

So you're counting on quite a few things that need to get done, and done correctly, to make A-spec palatable for even a semi-decent console racer.

Polyphony has had GT3 and GT4 last generation to work on AI, and GT5P and GT5 this generation to work on AI. Do you honestly feel they have made any progress?

I'm a realist and I have to say "no" with certainty.

 

[omgitsbees]

So you're counting on quite a few things that need to get done, and done correctly, to make A-spec palatable for even a semi-decent console racer.

Polyphony has had GT3 and GT4 last generation to work on AI, and GT5P and GT5 this generation to work on AI. Do you honestly feel they have made any progress?

I'm a realist and I have to say "no" with certainty.

Hah, yeah I agree, they have made zero improvements on A.I. and probably won't. They could, if they pulled their heads out of the hole they have them in, but i'm not kidding myself, I realize that isn't happening.

 

[robbo6]

How it effects us has been gone over several times. It destroys the acheivment of people who do run the endurance races when anybody can run them 1 hour at a time.

one word.....selfish. Do you really think many people give a smeg that someone else has done the 24 hours straight? I can tell you for a fact that I do not give a damn.....other than thinking anyone doing it is a sandwich short of a picnic. This is a GAME it is ENTERTAINMENT. PD adding saves will not affect your Entertainment if you so desire to play it 24 hours straight DON'T SAVE.

All it affects is taking away the penis substitute of bragging that you've completed the enduro....seriously get a life.

Let people play games how THEY want. It's a problem that has affected game developers for years (only RPG developers seem to be immune). Have OPTIONS, don't presume everyone can spend HOURS on a game, don't have rigid rules and situations that can ONLY be solved one way.

mind you if PD don't let us select "REAL" tyre realism in aspec then it's all irrelevant anyways I probably wouldn't bother with the longer endurance races as without proper tyre wear there's no strategy.

 

[DaveS1138]

Dude, you do recognize that most of us have lives, or we just can't sit there for 24 hours in front of a screen? Does anyone ever hear the stories of people doing marathon sessions for two days in their living room, (on other games of course) and then when they finally stand up they die instantly because they have a blood clot or something? Thats why they give us warnings to take a break. And also, real endurance drivers don't actually race for 24 hours, teams always have at least two drivers to take shifts. 24 hours with no bathroom breaks? Are you serious? I don't even think thats physically possible. Sorry sir, but to me it seems that your logic is flawed. I'm not saying they should scrap the endurance races all together, but give other people a chance to actually complete them. Endurance saves all the way!!!

I'm not sure if you read all of my post that you quoted.....I answered all this in the same post.

Where did I ever say I want people to complete 24 hours without a break?

Personally I think the only way to run the 24 hour races is with a group of friends taking shifts.

Yes I know alot of people dont have a group of friends they can call on to do that......but then why are they so adament that they want to run a 24 hour race by themselves.......oh right.....so they can have the achievment of finishing a game 100%.

know I sound like a jerk, but name ONE other game that requires you to play for 24+ hours just to get one step closer to Platinum?

Name another game that includes a 24 hour race?.......the clue is in the name.....they call it a '24 hour endurance race' for a reason.

but again why do people who dont want to race for 24 hours want to enter a 24 hour race.......the reason given is the same.....so you can have the achievment of a platinum trophy......so why criticise others for wanting to keep the achievment of a 24 hour race in the game.

one word.....selfish. Do you really think many people give a smeg that someone else has done the 24 hours straight? I can tell you for a fact that I do not give a damn.....other than thinking anyone doing it is a sandwich short of a picnic. This is a GAME it is ENTERTAINMENT. PD adding saves will not affect your Entertainment if you so desire to play it 24 hours straight DON'T SAVE.

I have answered several times how it effects my enjoyment of the game. If you cant understand somebody elses opinion there is little point in the discussion.

I have asked several times for the pro save game people to explain why they want to run a 24 hour race if they dont want to run a 24 hour race......it's so they can finish the game 100%......so they can have that achievment. Feel free to add other reasons if you have any......but instead you simply dismiss others opinions on the game because you dont feel the same way that they do.

If the game is simply Entertainment then explain to me why you want to run a race that you dont want to run? Why do you want to run a 24 hour race when you are so adament that you dont want to race for 24 hours......how is it entertaining for you to run a race that you dont want to run?

 

[another_jakhole]

So you're counting on quite a few things that need to get done, and done correctly, to make A-spec palatable for even a semi-decent console racer.

Polyphony has had GT3 and GT4 last generation to work on AI, and GT5P and GT5 this generation to work on AI. Do you honestly feel they have made any progress?

I'm a realist and I have to say "no" with certainty.

The AI have feelings, TOO, you know!

Anyway, the AI has definitely improved, but it's definitely not even close to what Kaz wants. He's a true world-class racer, why wouldn't he want improved AI?

AI is just not easy. It's one of the harder things a programmer has to learn, which Kaz has been doing since he was a boy/pre-teen. haha

 

[Nismo34]

The AI have feelings, TOO, you know!

Anyway, the AI has definitely improved, but it's definitely not even close to what Kaz wants. He's a true world-class racer, why wouldn't he want improved AI?

AI is just not easy. It's one of the harder things a programmer has to learn, which Kaz has been doing since he was a boy/pre-teen.

I believe we should tell Mike that if he wants the AI to be better, he should do it himself.

 

[Tenacious D]

I have never understood the desire for more A-spec events from this community.

• Online physics are messed up to one extent or other. I don't like them.
• The online system needs to be better structured and supportive of searches for friend's servers and races they're in.
• The bots are FAR less annoying than the tards I encounter online.

I think this is a good start on why.

 

[papaspurs]

Would a lot of AI complaints go away if the update just made them brake a little later?

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

The AI have feelings, TOO, you know!

Anyway, the AI has definitely improved, but it's definitely not even close to what Kaz wants. He's a true world-class racer, why wouldn't he want improved AI?

AI is just not easy. It's one of the harder things a programmer has to learn.

Of course, but it appears to be something that Polyphony does not place a lot of emphasis on. It's strange, because that's such a large component of GT games up to now: the offline play.

But you have to ask yourself: in three years of intense development time (F1 2010 and now F1 2011), Codemasters Birmingham has managed to craft a pretty above-average AI system that races the player without any of the obvious "cheats' in AI programming like obvious rubber-banding. If they can do it with their yearly deadlines, you have to wonder....

• Online physics are messed up to one extent or other. I don't like them.
• The online system needs to be better structured and supportive of searches for friend's servers and races they're in.
• The bots are FAR less annoying than the tards I encounter online.

I think this is a good start on why.

I understand your frustration with the public lobbies, but surely you don't find grinding out laps for another gift ticket offline against mobile chicane AI fulfilling in any way, do you?

I could see how that might be interesting to players who like getting achievements, carrot-and-the-stick and all, but for any kind of real challenge?

 

[masterrawad]

gt5 needs an M. Rossi type of driver.

 

[Nismo34]

Of course, but it appears to be something that Polyphony does not place a lot of emphasis on. It's strange, because that's such a large component of GT games up to now: the offline play.

But you have to ask yourself: in three years of intense development time (F1 2010 and now F1 2011), Codemasters Birmingham has managed to craft a pretty above-average AI system that races the player without any of the obvious "cheats' in AI programming like obvious rubber-banding. If they can do it with their yearly deadlines, you have to wonder....

How many employees are at CodeMasters VS the whole 140 at PD. You have to wonder...

 

[omgitsbees]

Would a lot of AI complaints go away if the update just made them brake a little later?

No? They already brake way to late as is.

How many employees are at CodeMasters VS the whole 140 at PD. You have to wonder...

PD needs to start hiring then. Until that happens, they can't release a quality game. It's obvious 140 people wasn't enough to make GT5 into a complete game, on time. Codemasters had 200 artists working on Dirt 3 alone.

 

[Mac K]

I have never understood the desire for more A-spec events from this community.

I couldn't agree more, everyone complains the AI sucks and A spec is to easy, but they always want more A spec events, it doesn't make sense.. besides the seasonals are technically new A spec events, you earn XP towards A spec and most of them are just like the A spec events offline.

 

[Nismo34]

PD needs to start hiring then. Until that happens, they can't release a quality game. It's obvious 140 people wasn't enough to make GT5 into a complete game, on time. Codemasters had 200 artists working on Dirt 3 alone.

Kaz is a perfectionist, You really think hiring more people will speed up the process of making a game? Or will it give them more man hours to make it perfect, still resulting in a late game?

 

[robbo6]

I have never understood the desire for more A-spec events from this community.

It's offline, it's against sub-par AI, and the only challenge is one which you have to artificially create yourself (use a lower-power car than AI) or is artificially created by the game designers (cars start the race spaced out by a large margin).

Playing GT offline as the designers intended (upgrading your car incrementally, entering A-spec events with a higher-power car than your opponents) is a grind-fest for arbitrary event trophies and nothing more. In every dream feature list that mentions more A-spec events, I just ask myself, "With this AI system, whyyyy?"

Now if we could get some new structured online events and leaderboards...that is something I could go for.

You have a point, but they could implement a sliding scale for ai speed, from say 75% to 125%. And they could get rid of the stupid slowing down issue (which is surely a bug..I cannot believe anyone at PD thinks that's good Ai behaviour).

Many people, myself included don't care about online. Unless your lucky you can have an awfull experience of people who's driving makes the Ai seem Vettel like in comparison....or misunderstandings and bannings. Or you have to join a league where it's not as just pick up and play as Aspec

Hell if PD just add an event creator that would be good enough for me.

 

[omgitsbees]

Kaz is a perfectionist, You really think hiring more people will speed up the process of making a game? Or will it give them more man hours to make it perfect, still resulting in a late game?

A perfectionist releases 800 poor looking, last generation cars, with no cockpit views? More like Kaz is a fraud, looking to create a few suckers. There is nothing about PD that makes me think they are perfectionists. 5 year development time, tells me that PD is a poorly managed studio that is got to caught up in what is called feature creep, they kept wanting to add more cars and more features during development, with no one to tell them to stop and just release the game. We should have had GT6 by now, or even GT7.

 

[Slash]

This thread has been successfully derailed in TWO ways.

1. Instead of this thread being about info about the next update, it just became a giant wishlist (which we already have threads for).

2. People bickering about complete nonsense.


If you ask me this should be locked, every post but the OP deleted. Then, when there is actually some information regarding the update, the OP be updated by a mod. That way people still can't post, because I have a feeling all the posts would still end up being a wishlist even though there is no point to it, or people getting upset they didn't get what they wanted.



Good job to those few posters who didn't just go along with the wishlists and bickering. My hat goes off to you.

Saw this coming.

 

[CarloPlaya]

gt5 needs an M. Rossi type of driver.

Yes! I heard of him as an infamous overaggressive driver in Forza. I would like to race against such a badass. 👍

 

[masterrawad]

A perfectionist releases 800 poor looking, last generation cars, with no cockpit views? More like Kaz is a fraud, looking to create a few suckers. There is nothing about PD that makes me think they are perfectionists. 5 year development time, tells me that PD is a poorly managed studio that is got to caught up in what is called feature creep, they kept wanting to add more cars and more features during development, with no one to tell them to stop and just release the game. We should have had GT6 by now, or even GT7.

there was't supposed to be so many standard cars. kaz was rushed. the gamers were getting impatient (as usual) so they released it looking incomplete. and now people are saying that kaz is a fraud!

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

You have a point, but they could implement a sliding scale for ai speed, from say 75% to 125%. And they could get rid of the stupid slowing down issue (which is surely a bug..I cannot believe anyone at PD thinks that's good Ai behaviour).

Many people, myself included don't care about online. Unless your lucky you can have an awfull experience of people who's driving makes the Ai seem Vettel like in comparison....or misunderstandings and bannings. Or you have to join a league where it's not as just pick up and play as Aspec

Hell if PD just add an event creator that would be good enough for me.

I wish the developer would implement an online matchmaking system in the GT franchise.

Basically people shy away from online right now for two reasons:

1) Public lobbies have idiot drivers
2) You can't just jump right into an event like A-Spec

So if we could have online driver ratings (acquiring a better "level" by avoiding contact and racing clean) and set events where the field is made up of people who are matched up together instantly, things might be more appealing.

The long-run trend of gaming is more and more online. I just hope Polyphony can execute the online portion of the game better because I am completely certain they will be making more and more of the GT series about racing over the internet vs. offline events in future installments.

 

[omgitsbees]

there was't supposed to be so many standard cars. kaz was rushed. the gamers were getting impatient (as usual) so they released it looking incomplete. and now people are saying that kaz is a fraud!

Whatever makes you sleep better at night, but this isn't how it happened. GT5 should have been out in 2008. You never ever start adding more and more features late in development, like what PD did. That is always a terrible idea. You create a cut off point, and everything else you save for the next game.

 

[robbo6]

I have answered several times how it effects my enjoyment of the game. If you cant understand somebody elses opinion there is little point in the discussion.

I have asked several times for the pro save game people to explain why they want to run a 24 hour race if they dont want to run a 24 hour race......it's so they can finish the game 100%......so they can have that achievment. Feel free to add other reasons if you have any......but instead you simply dismiss others opinions on the game because you dont feel the same way that they do.

If the game is simply Entertainment then explain to me why you want to run a race that you dont want to run? Why do you want to run a 24 hour race when you are so adament that you dont want to race for 24 hours......how is it entertaining for you to run a race that you dont want to run?

You have explained...and I've replied that it's selfish. On GTR2 I setup and raced 2 12hours of Sebring a while back. Did it over a few weeks, it wasn't perfect as I was using a modded track and car set (ALMS) so had some weird Ai drop outs (no fuel) which narked me off. But it WAS NOT like running many little hour long races. I was in a DBR9 and was in a long battle with the Corvettes and it was DAMN fun. I didn't win because I made some errors towards the end of the race...but I led for the first 4 hours. It was nothing like many smaller races, do YOU understand that? Now like I said, if PD leave Aspecs tyre reality on "low" then it's all irrelevant. But if they give us the option of selecting "real" (and I'm hoping they do) then being able to run a 24 hour race in a car that isn't leaps and bounds faster than the Ai cars will be a very good race and completely different to multiple short races.

 

[Ya Pops]

NO. Don't do it if you dont want to do it.

If you dont want to race for 24 hours then dont enter a 24 hour race.

as for doing it my way......I gave two different examples of ways to do it......how is that me saying you have to do it my way?

Well your way is doing it in one stint. Your way is NOT pausing/saving. therefore its either your way or no way. 'Nuff Said?

Bingo.

 

[Nismo34]

A perfectionist releases 800 poor looking, last generation cars, with no cockpit views? More like Kaz is a fraud, looking to create a few suckers. There is nothing about PD that makes me think they are perfectionists. 5 year development time, tells me that PD is a poorly managed studio that is got to caught up in what is called feature creep, they kept wanting to add more cars and more features during development, with no one to tell them to stop and just release the game. We should have had GT6 by now, or even GT7.

As said, Kaz was rushed, he wanted more standards converted to premium, he wanted a heap more, they were busy putting together non GT related stuff like GTR Visual computer, Tourist Trophy, Working with Toyota and Subaru for the FT-86, also working with Nissan for the GTR reveal, all this for 140 people to handle? Honestly I reckon they did an alright job. All the updates we get, surely thats got to say something about Kaz wanting to finish the game more?

 

[robbo6]

I wish the developer would implement an online matchmaking system in the GT franchise.

Basically people shy away from online right now for two reasons:

1) Public lobbies have idiot drivers
2) You can't just jump right into an event like A-Spec

So if we could have online driver ratings (acquiring a better "level" by avoiding contact and racing clean) and set events where the field is made up of people who are matched up together instantly, things might be more appealing.

The long-run trend of gaming is more and more online. I just hope Polyphony can execute the online portion of the game better because I am completely certain they will be making more and more of the GT series about racing over the internet vs. offline events in future installments.

That long run trend has been to the detriment of quality games IMO. Online only really appeals to two types...the mega hardcore...or the complete cretin. Take the Call of Duties, first 2 had pretty good storylines with decent single player campaign length. Now we have the complete and utter messes like Modern Warfare 2 and I havn't even bothered with Black ops because of MW2 was such a mess. I want games that give me DRAMA, let me make moral choices, get me INTO the game like a good book. But no...games are becoming more and more like a fast food outlet, fast fix.

And I'd guess that the BIGGEST reason GT5s offline mode is crap compared to previous GTs is because of Online. Developers are incapable of doing a decent offline and online experience, online sucks everything away from offline.

edit, I do realise that story and drama don't really work with a racing game, I'm having a general anti online gaming moan.

 

[Cipher22]

I'm almost certain that we will get new tracks and events. I'm extremely optimistic about the update, but I'm gonna make sure I not gonna make a fuss when I don't get what I want. But here's to hoping.

24 hrs at the Complex String anyone?

 

[Tenacious D]

I understand your frustration with the public lobbies, but surely you don't find grinding out laps for another gift ticket offline against mobile chicane AI fulfilling in any way, do you?

Yes, yes I do. In fact, I'm about to go fire up GT5 and race in Arcade Mode which offers NO rewards other than pushing a car around a track as hard as I can against the bots. And I still love it, Standard cars and all.

and zomgbees, you're obviously ignoring a few things, such as SONY's meddling with Polyphony's work like pushing GT PSP development on the team when Kaz wanted to do it after GT5 was finished, pushing 3D as standard in GT5 which more than doubled the workload on the PS3 and other things.

AND you're ignoring a LOT of issues with your beloved Forza, which have inspired me to call it "half-a**ed" through the entire series to this point.

Now Forza is a good series and a few million like it, but it's obviously not the dream game Dan G b.s.ed about, yet. When Forza 4 gets released, then we can talk about massive overkills of aweasomeness and stuff.

 

[omgitsbees]

As said, Kaz was rushed, he wanted more standards converted to premium, he wanted a heap more, they were busy putting together non GT related stuff like GTR Visual computer, Tourist Trophy, Working with Toyota and Subaru for the FT-86, also working with Nissan for the GTR reveal, all this for 140 people to handle? Honestly I reckon they did an alright job. All the updates we get, surely thats got to say something about Kaz wanting to finish the game more?

Proving my point that Kaz is awful at management. He should have said "No, we cannot do these other projects, GT5 is taking up way to much of our time." He should have cut futures and cars and left some of this stuff for future versions of Gran Turismo. Ultimately all of the blame is laid on the manager, and that is Kaz.

If you think it was somehow Sony that held PD back, you are kidding yourselves.

 

[Tenacious D]

24 hrs at the Complex String anyone?

Are you insane?!

Actually, that might be a hoot, just trying to keep on the track after an hour!

Oh and for those asking for Polyphony to hire more people, you act like this comes at no cost. You obviously don't work for a living if you think so, because the most expensive part of any product is the human labor costs. Microsoft may have spent $120 million or more on Forza 4 because of the massive size of T10 Studios, as well as the five other studios and graphic research contracts. Nothing is free, guys.

Now PD is indeed beefing up their numbers a bit, I think as said previously that they're up to 150 as of GT5's launch. But hiring 50 more modelers can cost more than $1 million a year just in payroll and benefits. Try to keep a few cogent facts in mind in these discussions.

 

[Nismo34]

Proving my point that Kaz is awful at management. He should have said "No, we cannot do these other projects, GT5 is taking up way to much of our time." He should have cut futures and cars and left some of this stuff for future versions of Gran Turismo. Ultimately all of the blame is laid on the manager, and that is Kaz.

Ok,so where would they get the money for production and development of the game?