GT5P physics vs Enthusia

[Biggles]

Anyone Enthusiasts out there tried GT5P yet. I don't want to post in the GT5P threads, because it will just start a flame war, but judging from the demo & video of other cars/tracks in GT5P, it seems like a lot of the same issues exist as with GT4. Among other things, it looks like it's still just too easy to control the cars: effortless braking & throwing powerful FR cars around corners without worrying about having to control the weight transfer.

I guess we'll know for sure in another few weeks...

 

[shaka]

it seems like a lot of the same issues exist as with GT4. Among other things, it looks like it's still just too easy to control the cars: effortless braking & throwing powerful FR cars around corners without worrying about having to control the weight transfer.

/QUOTE]

Are you sure u arent confunsing this with forza 2.

 

[KSaiyu]

From experience with the Japanese Prologue I can tell you it's much improved in those areas, although I always (and still do) think there can be improvement in GT's braking - it still feels slightly unnatural.

 

[heavyboots]

Well, the physics model seems much improved to me in the Japanese version, but I haven't really played it with a wheel, since that's in my office and kind of permanently trapped into the spaghetti cabling behind the computers, lol.

It seems like it's mostly tires in GT5P Japanese Demo. I can win in almost any car if I put full-on race tires on it. They will hold even if you brake mid-turn. But if you put on street-class tires, you get into a lot more trouble trying that kind of stunt. I would still say Enthusia simulates the "feeling" of car weight slightly better though, but not hugely so.

Honestly, it will also help to do a road course instead of a high speed racetrack. I was kind of disappointed to see that GT5P will come with a couple high speed oval tracks, where I would like to see something more like the RBR France courses, where it's all crazy tarmac hairpins in the mountains.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I'll (maybe) buy a PS3 after GT5P is released. Until then, I can only hope that PD improved what was wrong in GT4.

And I'm still hoping that konami doesn't quit from their "console-car-game" experience ... they raised the bar, I assume PD noticed it and we only have to be thankful for that.

 

[Leonidae]

You have to be kidding me. GT5P is on par with more accurate PC sims like LFS etc. it is simply ridiculous to compare previous gen game like EPR to GT5P.. and I've played enthu, and driven real cars too ,and I can tell straight away that if real cars would handle like they do in Enthu, we could see SUV's drifting at 120mph. EPR couldn't touch GT4, it can't even dream of being mentioned in same sentence than GT5P when talking about realism and physics.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Anyone Enthusiasts out there tried GT5P yet. I don't want to post in the GT5P threads, because it will just start a flame war ...

You have to be kidding me. GT5P is on par with more accurate PC sims like LFS etc. it is simply ridiculous to compare previous gen game like EPR to GT5P.. and I've played enthu, and driven real cars too ,and I can tell straight away that if real cars would handle like they do in Enthu, we could see SUV's drifting at 120mph. EPR couldn't touch GT4, it can't even dream of being mentioned in same sentence than GT5P when talking about realism and physics.

@Biggles: now you know that you shouldn't ask such ridiculous questions in any forum.


@Leonidae: I use to compare games with many years (almost abandonware)with new games. GPLegends is one of them.

About EPR and GT4, the issue has been covered countless times, I don't think nothing useful can be said now. About EPR and GT5P, I say it again: I just hope PD paid close attention to what EPR had to offer, concerning physics. I'm sure they did, and I'm sure they didn't find it "ridiculous" ...

 

[Leonidae]

And I sincerely hope that they took it as warning example. if stock Capucchino is as ridiculously impossible to drive in real life as it is in Enthusia, I really am glad that it is a rare car on the roads around here.

 

[cubits]

You have to be kidding me. GT5P is on par with more accurate PC sims like LFS etc. it is simply ridiculous to compare previous gen game like EPR to GT5P.. and I've played enthu, and driven real cars too ,and I can tell straight away that if real cars would handle like they do in Enthu, we could see SUV's drifting at 120mph. EPR couldn't touch GT4, it can't even dream of being mentioned in same sentence than GT5P when talking about realism and physics.

In simulation land, where tyre walls can't pull off or explode and chassis can't twist themselves into knots, there is no reason why an SUV couldn't drift at 120mph. There is nothing in GT5 that is advanced enough to make it impossible.

LFS, while great at post-limit handling, and with its great tyre heat and wear modelling (sidewall wear ftw!), does have issues with it's below-peak tyre modelling. rFactor conversely goes wonky when the tyres get past the limit. Because the physics models are so advanced, there are inherent issues with the details. EPR glosses over that, generalises, and benefits by generating a tyre model which is consistent and realistic enough. It's actually less jarring than either LFS or rFactor (suspension of disbelief) when factoring both phases and the transition.

GT4 had tractor-style awd systems, making the evo feel somewhat leaden. The FWD modelling was so awry that some of them actually had power oversteer, and there was no rear wheel jacking (core characteristic). In some ways, the physics had even taken a step backwards from GT3 (no doughnut ability, absent handbrake). If you think GT4 was better than EPR, then your comparison of GT5P to LFS is to be taken with a grain of salt.

I'm still interested in GT5, it may be enough to make me buy a PS3, but i've seen far too many sims likened to LFS in the past, and GT has a shaky history of forging realism. If they stole enough people from other simulation sources, it could be great. If they've continued down their own path, then it will be more about car numbers and pretty graphics than driving realism.

 

[Biggles]

And I sincerely hope that they took it as warning example. if stock Capucchino is as ridiculously impossible to drive in real life as it is in Enthusia, I really am glad that it is a rare car on the roads around here.

I tend to think that one of the reasons cars seem "ridiculously impossible" to drive in Enthusia is because they are ridiculously easy in GT4. Do you really think you could gun a car through the streets the way you can in the GT4 Amalfi & Citta D'Aria tracks? Pretty much the only thing you have to worry about is going into a turn too fast & understeering. Ask yourself this: "would I actually do that in my car"?

Just take a look at U Tube: you'll find endless examples of people losing control of their cars & smashing them up as soon as they try to drive "aggressively".

I think that people have just got used to the feel of GT physics & accept it as "real". That's not to say that Enthusia's physics are accurate either.

EPR glosses over that, generalises

Exactly! But at least EPR makes an effort.

Of course, I'll get GT5/P & enjoy it for what it offers - but incorporating a little more of EPR physics in GT5 wouldn't be a bad thing...

 

[Greycap]

Another thread for praising Enthusia over everything, great. I see we're already at the point in which Enthusia is said to have better physics than LFS and that pretty much sums up how creditable these threads are.

The physics in GT4 have flaws in them, that's for sure. Every game has flaws in it. Surprisingly it's always the oversteer factor in EPR that is used to prove its greatness over everything else and the lack of understeer problems of it are forgotten but let's take a look at what real life laws of physics say. The questions are meant to be answered by the Enthusia guys.

You're going 200 km/h in a road car on a tarmac road and turn the wheel hard. What happens? Will you hear a screech from the front and continue in a wide arc with the front tyres squealing or will you whip the car into a perfect high speed drift?

You're in a 300 bhp FWD road car. You accelerate it at full throttle from a standing start. Will you burn the tyres out until the third gear or will you take off like a rocket with no wheelspin?

You're in a daily driver, trying to drive it around a race track as fast as possible. Which one will you be battling more, understeer or oversteer?

Think about it seriously. If Enthusia was as good as you're saying, why didn't it ever sell too well? Why doesn't it have a huge fanbase like the other games in its genre? Could it possibly have something to do with the fact that the others are better? And don't say it's because it's so realistic that the average gamer can't play it. LFS sells like candy despite being realistic and difficult for the average gamer.

 

[Biggles]

Another thread for praising Enthusia over everything, great.

This is what I said (in another thread about recommending Enthusia:

On the negative side: no damage, no online, poor AI, poor sound, so-so graphics, only two "real-world" tracks & somewhat weird game-play structure.

To that I could add: no "look-back" view (terrible for racing), limited car selection, & poor controller implementation (& probably a few other negatives if I took the time to think about them...).

That hardly reads like I'm praising Enthusia "over everything".

Think about it seriously. If Enthusia was as good as you're saying, why didn't it ever sell too well? Why doesn't it have a huge fanbase like the other games in its genre? Could it possibly have something to do with the fact that the others are better? And don't say it's because it's so realistic that the average gamer can't play it. LFS sells like candy despite being realistic and difficult for the average gamer.

Does LFS really "sell like candy"? I would guess it's not remotely in the same league as the GT series.

Lots of things "sell well" even when they're not good. Have you looked a the box office returns for some of the movies Hollywood puts out?

Because of all of Enthusia's negatives, overall, IMO Forza & GT4 are better than Enthusia, especially for the "average" gamer. Enthusia is only "better" in some aspects of the physics.

Enthusia's physics are not perfect. It "generalizes" ie. simplifies tire physics & weight transfer. But it does at least attempt to do things that GT4 (& Forza) do not. You are forced to drive the car through the turn, continuing to balance the car's weight as you go round the turn & continuing to balance the car as it reacts to coming out of the turn & into the next turn etc. etc. This makes for a more detailed & challenging driving experience IMO.

Personally, I would not want the GT series to be more like Enthusia, but for GT5 to keep the things that are great about GT & incorporate some of the elements of Enthusia's physics. That would be perfect. 👍

 

[NSX-R]

@ Greycap

Enthusia's commercial failure were caused by poor marketing.

First of all, Enthusia was intended as a simulation-racing game (emphasize on game) for the PS2. However, its intended audience was mainly based on the PC platform. Many PS2 casual gamers unknowingly bought this game and was presented a difficult gameplay, hence the negative reaction from numerous media.

Hard-core racing fans who actually had a PS2 and tried this game didn't respond positively either because there are better alternatives on PC (Physics-wise).

Despite its original intentions, Enthusia was a compromised middle child that never gained love from either side. Few gamers in its unique niche love it (myself included).

Gran Turismo 4's commercial success was not due to its physics engine. The reputation it carried, the amount of vehicles, great graphics and a relatively shallower learning curve (compared to Enthusia anyway) made it a popular racing title with racing fans and casual gamers alike. GT4's physics was adequate. Its physics was probably "icing on the cake" for most informed buyers, a side benefit that never really was the core reason for buying GT4.

Live For Speed sells well and enjoys a large diverse fanbase mainly thanks to its great physics engine, online capability and interaction with the developers.

As you can see, many of the other game titles were successful because they excelled in other categories. Physics is not the only measure of success in gaming (kinda obvious)

Yes, you are right. GT4 and LFS are better games (I probably shouldn't call LFS a game). However, their superiority in sales number and fanbase does not necessarily translate into better physics engines (Personally I find LFS's physics engine much more convincing than Enthusia's).

Enthusia is a niche game; if you don't like it, it doesn't mean others can't love it. Vice versa

 

[Biggles]

Few gamers in its unique niche love it (myself included).

Do you mean: a few gamers in its unique niche love it (myself included). Or do you mean: Few gamers in its unique niche love it (myself included).

Completely different meaning.

 

[NSX-R]

I meant that not a lot of gamers enjoy Enthusia for what it is, but those that do enjoy it like it alot.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Biggles]

Well, the point of this thread was to ask, discreetly (before it got blind-sided by the Flying Finn ), the opinion of people who do appreciate the EPR physics model, since people who already think GT4 is close to perfection in the physics department, are not likely to offer a critical evaluation of GT5P.

I am not one of those people who think that EPR is "better" than GT4, I'm not even sure I think that "physics" is the most important factor in a racing game. But I do think that the GT series would be improved by having some of the feel of EPR's tire & weight-transfer physics.

 

[NSX-R]

@ Biggles

I think you misunderstood me.

My comment was in response to Greycap's comment. Greycap commented that the commercial failure of Enthusia was due to its inferior physics. I just expressed my opinion that Enthusia failed to impress the general public because it was poorly marketed and its content was rather quirky and shallow (leveling up the driver and the car, lack of comprehensive tuning, relatively low numbers of cars compared to rivals such as GT4, graphics not up to par with GT4, etc).

Compared to GT4, Enthusia is not a better game in general. But I do believe Enthusia has an overall better physics engine than GT4.

Sorry for putting this thread on the wrong track.

 

[Biggles]

@ NSX-R :

I didn't misunderstand you & I pretty much agree with everything you're saying.

I guess I'll find out how GT5P stacks up on April 17th...

 

[Wolfe]

I can tell straight away that if real cars would handle like they do in Enthu, we could see SUV's drifting at 120mph.

Like cubits said, there's no reason why they couldn't in a modest simulation (ie. one that doesn't model rollovers).

And I sincerely hope that they took it as warning example. if stock Capucchino is as ridiculously impossible to drive in real life as it is in Enthusia, I really am glad that it is a rare car on the roads around here.

Enthusia isn't perfect, but the Capucchino in Enthusia is more tame than my BMW is in real life. The Suzuki's severly peaky powerband doesn't help.

I see we're already at the point in which Enthusia is said to have better physics than LFS and that pretty much sums up how creditable these threads are.

Where? The only one I know of who believes that is rsmithdrift.

Surprisingly it's always the oversteer factor in EPR that is used to prove its greatness over everything else and the lack of understeer problems of it are forgotten but let's take a look at what real life laws of physics say.

It's the oversteer factor that makes EPR more fun. Yes, understeer isn't as bad as it should be, the virtual drivers slip the clutch perfectly on launches, and rollovers are impossible (as they are in any GT-style game), but in the end EPR still represents a better understanding of weight transfer/balance, tire dynamics, and suspension control than any console racing game I've played. As cubits so excellently explained, its physics engine is "generalized," but consistent and realistic enough.

And at least for me, that's enough to place its realism far ahead of both GT4 and FM2. As for GT5, I'd have to play it to find out.

 

[unv412]

Anyone Enthusiasts out there tried GT5P yet. I don't want to post in the GT5P threads, because it will just start a flame war, but judging from the demo & video of other cars/tracks in GT5P, it seems like a lot of the same issues exist as with GT4. Among other things, it looks like it's still just too easy to control the cars: effortless braking & throwing powerful FR cars around corners without worrying about having to control the weight transfer.

I guess we'll know for sure in another few weeks...

My summary is posted on GT5p threads as I do beleive it should be! (only telling it as it should) Its not so easy to control for reasons Ive mentioned and the braking thing is totally lacking in certain area's of trail braking physics (hard braking in anything but a straight line) so there still alot to work on.

 

[Jay]

the braking thing is totally lacking in certain area's of trail braking physics (hard braking in anything but a straight line) so there still alot to work on.

Have you tryied turning ABS off? Trail in braking is not easy when ABS is off, very easy to unstabilise the car and bring the rear around or lock that inside front tyre.

 

[unv412]

I have been driving ABS equiped cars so I was trying to stay true to there set up, but I 'll give it a go.Also someones given up the secret to drifting in GT5p by saying you just turn the steering angle feild to max, hope this improves the feel.BTW why is it that none of the enthusiasts here have taken this to the prologue thread????? Is it bcause you guys havent played the game yet ???

 

[Wolfe]

Sorry, unv412, but I have no plans of purchasing a PS3 until they become dirt cheap. I am excited about GT5 now, which I couldn't say a year ago, but that's the only game that is enticing me to buy a PS3. It's not enough.

 

[unv412]

i understand, its the same for me too as I wont get PS3 till they get to @ $350 AUD or if there is a worthwile game (Dirt was a bit of a dissapointment) or 2 to entice me.Looks like I gotta spend more time with my PS3 cuz.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I'm thinking of buying a PS3 soon. There are already two games I want to play there. GT5P and Race Driver Grid (it seems this one has the 24 Hours of Le Mans in it ... but I'm not sure).

But, I've been playing TRD3 online since last month . I'm there almost every night (mid afternoon for americans, morning for australians) and I'm having a lot of fun with it.

So, I really don't feel a urgent need of a new game, especially when it envolves (sp?) buying a new console to play it.

 

[cubits]

I haven't been able to get my hands on a test run of GT5P. It's out here now, but none of my usual haunts are running a demo console. There's no way i'd dive into owning a PS3 for one game if it turns out to have a rubbish core driving experience.

 

[Scaff]

I haven't been able to get my hands on a test run of GT5P. It's out here now, but none of my usual haunts are running a demo console. There's no way i'd dive into owning a PS3 for one game if it turns out to have a rubbish core driving experience.

If you do get a chance to try it make sure (and I mean sure) that the physics model is set to Professional and not Standard.

Standard = Better than GT4, but still sim/cade

Professional = Excellent

I hope that those that know me will understand that I do not make that last comment lightly, the Professional physics engine on GT5 is excellent, its a huge step forward over any of the GT series. Under and oversteer are well modeled, with good throttle adjustability. All flavours of oversteer can be induced, from power over to a flick. Low speed physics work great, do-nuts and handbrake turns are more than possible (one of the first things I tested) and the powerful RWD cars are as much of a handful to drive if you step over the limits as they should be.

In addition for the first time in the GT series (and something you could not do in EPR) you can disable all driving aids, including ABS, so true brake lock-up is possible.

I've only had it a short period of time, but if you have a PS3 its a must.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Hun200kmh]

I hope that those that know me will understand that I do not make that last comment lightly ...

I'm sure you don't, and that's great news . You're the second guy I trust about this that is praising GT5P's physics (the other one is a great friend of mine that played both GT4 and EPR intensively and is nowadays playing GT5P).

I'll try it myself one of these days, when I get the opportunity to "pay him a visit" (lol). If i get impressed (as it seems I will) I'll probably buy the PS3 a bit sooner than previously planned.

 

[Dave A]

If you do get a chance to try it make sure (and I mean sure) that the physics model is set to Professional and not Standard.

Standard = Better than GT4, but still sim/cade

Professional = Excellent

I hope that those that know me will understand that I do not make that last comment lightly, the Professional physics engine on GT5 is excellent, its a huge step forward over any of the GT series. Under and oversteer are well modeled, with good throttle adjustability. All flavours of oversteer can be induced, from power over to a flick. Low speed physics work great, do-nuts and handbrake turns are more than possible (one of the first things I tested) and the powerful RWD cars are as much of a handful to drive if you step over the limits as they should be.

In addition for the first time in the GT series (and something you could not do in EPR) you can disable all driving aids, including ABS, so true brake lock-up is possible.

I've only had it a short period of time, but if you have a PS3 its a must.

Regards

Scaff

I agree entirely, and I'm sure you know too well that I won't praise the game just for because it's GT. GT5 is brilliant, the more I'm getting the hang of it the better it gets. It's the most realistic console game by a long way.

 

[Biggles]

Only a few more days 'til I get to judge GT5P physics for myself. However, I was not overly impressed with the demo physics.

For those PS3 holdouts, I will say that I find F1:CE an excellent game...