GT5P physics vs Enthusia

  • Thread starter Biggles
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The demo was a redressed GT4, so it shouldn't be in the same league as GT5:P.

Good news about the ABS, i've asked around a lot about that and haven't received a proper answer until now. Locking up on the brakes, what an advancement for the GT series! Next you'll be telling me that you can downshift into reverse instead of hitting triangle! :P
 
I didn't know there was another demo after GTHD. Why would you have a demo for prologue, it's a demo! :P

In that case, i can't imagine it would be too different. Why would you release a demo which didn't correspond to the full game?
 
just played GT5p again,finished B class and done about 3 races in A class.We raced a Zo6 with S1 tyres (this was the default for the race) and OMG what a difference this tyre makes to the realism! Power slides, drifting, braking ect almost perfect. There is still a lack of burnout/low speed physics nous compared to FM2 or even EPR and the weight transfer is still underdone (maybe the crap tyre squeal hides the sensation) but the game is shaping up to be quite imersive.Cannot wait to sample something a bit older car wise as I really enjoyed driving the sub 1980's cars in EPR with all their body roll and open diff carry on.
PS Does anyone know when the penalty system kicks in during the game as we havent encountered it in A class yet.Also when can we change tyres for our preferances.......I ask this hear as there is way too much goin on in the GT5p thread.
 
I like Enthusia because of the DFP physics, it feels really great, much better than any other sim I have played with it. edit: got to have it set to Strong force feedback.

If GT5 doesnt have better steering wheel physics than GT4, it wont matter how good the game physics are because it will still feel unrealistic at the wheel.
 
Actually, the game that could really benefit from EPR-style physics is DiRT. It seems to me that the loss-of-grip & weight transfer in EPR is most realistic in tracks like Wintertraum & Tsukuba Wet, as well as some of the off-road tracks. DiRT, on the other hand, has extremely unrealistic point & pivot physics, which really detract from the great graphics & superb damage engine. EPR physics would make DiRT so much more interesting...
 
Biggles
Actually, the game that could really benefit from EPR-style physics is DiRT. It seems to me that the loss-of-grip & weight transfer in EPR is most realistic in tracks like Wintertraum & Tsukuba Wet, as well as some of the off-road tracks. DiRT, on the other hand, has extremely unrealistic point & pivot physics, which really detract from the great graphics & superb damage engine. EPR physics would make DiRT so much more interesting...
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I thought Enthusia offered too much grip on surfaces other than dry pavement, especially Wintertraum. I completely agree with you, though, in that more games should utilize physics engines that are based on what the wheels are doing, not just "point & pivot" as you say.

Even Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed had what EA called a "four point" physics engine, and you could feel it, though oversteer is still severely underrepresented. I don't know if EA still goes for that style of engine -- Hot Pursuit 2 felt pretty good, but the games since have ranged from mediocre to terrible.
 
I was having trouble doing donuts in FR cars on Enthusia and noticed that only the inside rear wheel was showing red on the VGS (i.e full loss of traction) but the outside one was grey and not spinning. So I adjusted the LSD to 50% traction/maneouverability and this fixed it for donuts: car would spin around and both rear wheels showing fully RED :) sweet

But then I noticed when power oversteering out of corners only the inside rear wheel would spin (i.e fully red on VGS). So I adjusted the LSD a bit more till it was fully locked and still it only spins the inside rear wheel when powering out of corners. What gives?

Is this a glitch in the game or is it just the VGS displaying incorrectly?

There was a definite change in physics when doing donuts , but I'm not sure the power oversteer out of corners was affected by the LSD setting.
 
OK, got GT5P & have put enough time into it to buy my first big FR car - the Z06. I have to admit it's a major step up from GT4 in the physics department. As Scaff has said, oversteer & understeer are well modelled & you really have to feel the throttle carefully. Using the G25 with the H-shifter & clutch, it's really a pretty convincing experience... 👍
 
Biggles
OK, got GT5P & have put enough time into it to buy my first big FR car - the Z06. I have to admit it's a major step up from GT4 in the physics department. As Scaff has said, oversteer & understeer are well modelled & you really have to feel the throttle carefully. Using the G25 with the H-shifter & clutch, it's really a pretty convincing experience... 👍
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I totally agree (now) only bcause the G25 has changed the feel altogether over the DFP.Now I can drift with the pro's as the G25 spins comfortably in my hands and seems to tame the loopiness of many of the cars. Its this newfound controll that has endered me to GT5p's physics.....being able to snap (flat shift) 2nd gear in the M3 and fishtale for 50 metres with not too much trouble........heel and toeing so as to contain compresion lock.....etc. This game still lacks the body roll and weight transfer aspect of EPR, the doenut capabilites of FM2 but overall I am now pleased very much.
 
Ikari_San,

The VGS isn't glitching. The red outline shows up as soon as you have gone passed the tyres optimal percentage of slip. The thing is that you may only be barely passed that limit; and in that case you'd have barely any change in available traction.

I'm generalising, but the faster you're going the less ability the car is going to have to spin the wheels. From the sound of it you're at a point (speed) where the car really doesn't have enough 'Oomph' to spin the wheels so it's just taking advantage of the weight shift off the inside tyre and giving it a little heave-ho just over the limit of traction; not enough for a noticable effect to the handling though.

The standard LSD on one of my favourite cars, the Ford GT, is set at approx. 75% locked. Now even this powerful car would rather only spin the inside rear on corner exits; even when it's most definitely more than just gone over the traction limit. But, given half a chance, it will happily spin both rear tyres at corner speeds of 100+km/h. It can even be coaxed into spinning both rears all the way to speeds of 180-190km/h (actual car speed approx. 160km/h)
 
Been driving the Ford GT: very difficult to control, requires very delicate throttle & steering. On "Professional" setting the driving is as difficult as EPR for these FR & MR cars.
 
I've not played EPR in a long while, but now I have GT5P and, from memory, I feel able to compare. GT5P is a huge step forward from GT4 and, I think, is on par with EPR (physicswise), even better when we consider a less-friendly oversteering physics. EPR, however, still has a "feel" of the car, while cornering and under braking, that I think it's not so well recreated in GT5P.

To elaborate a litle, in EPR even if you're driving modern cars with ABS, you can't just slam the brakes while cornering, you have to feather them, or you'll lose the car (the wheels may not block, but the weight transfer to the front, if your car isn't in a straight line, will make you lose it). In GT5P I slowly learned that I could do that (slam the brakes even while cornering, with my wheel in full lock) without losing the car.

In all, my hat's off to PD, because when you have a millionaire franchise, there really isn't much incentive to go further in something as hard as the physics department. Especially when, in PS2 games, the only game that has beaten GT4 in that same department was a commercial disaster.

👍
 
I cannot compare the physics, as I have not played either with a wheel. As best as I can feel with a controller, however, Enthusia still seems to have the upper hand when it comes to weight transfer. But GT5P feels much better than any of the past games, although it's extremely hard to drive the faster cars with a pad when the physics are set to Professional. I had to complete 2/3rds of the A class with the standard physics model.

Also, this thread really should be in the GT5 Prologue section. Can someone move it?
 
Many GT lovers hated Enthusia, if this thread was moved to the GT5P it could lose its main purpose (physics comparison) and just be the ground for another session of Enthusia bashing and overall irrelevant posting.

Keep it here :)
 
Hun200kmh
Many GT lovers hated Enthusia, if this thread was moved to the GT5P it could lose its main purpose (physics comparison) and just be the ground for another session of Enthusia bashing and overall irrelevant posting.

Keep it here :)
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Well, it'd certainly get more discussion in the Prologue section. And I don't think it would wind up as a session of Enthusia bashing here... most people on gtplanet seem pretty level-headed and/or able to discuss things in an intelligent manner. And I think this thread belongs in the Prologue section more so than the Enthusia session because it's specifically asking for the discussion of how Prologue's physics compare to Enthusia, not the other way around.
 
yaywalter
most people on gtplanet seem pretty level-headed and/or able to discuss things in an intelligent manner.
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I think you underestimate the proliferance of immature new users on whatever board is dedicated to the most-recently-released Gran Turismo game. Even then, there are many seasoned members who would scoff at the notion that you could even begin to compare a PS2 game to GT5:P.

I think this is a good place to hear about GT5:P from Enthusia fans.
 
There's always the slight bias towards the section in which it is posted. As long as this is here the "GT5P has better physics" opinions will get disproven by the Enthusia crowd because we're at the Enthusia section and the people will defend their own regardless if it's really better or not. Not many of those opinions have been seen, possibly for that very reason. If it was moved to the GT5P section the situation would be reversed and we still wouldn't have got any further.

In short, you simply won't hear an Enthusia fan admitting GT5P is better, neither will you hear a GT5P fan admitting Enthusia is better. One of them is wrong, one of them is right, who, I don't know.
 
I for one (being an EPR fan) will say GT5P is better.....BUT......it could be the best if it just had a little more feel (progression) in the weight transfer of its physics modelling. Many people have also complained about the "floaty" feeling in EPR but i reckon thats whats missing in GT5P eg when you go over ripple strips and the car bounces and bobs (bump and rebound in the shock absorbers maybe???) as it hits them is missing from GT.BTW i also said this thread should appear in the prologue section and tried to start one but it seemed EPR fans didnt wana contribute, I guess we all know how GT5 can be improved...its just hard to referance our opinions with a game (EPR) than not many GT fans have enjoyed.Could say were ahead of our time thanks to EPR!
 
I can't compare EPR with GT5p. I tried EPR a couples of years ago.

There is a "thing" in GT5p that concerns me. I'll try to elaborate in understandable English (first language isn't English), which isn't still that easy, even after 4 years on this forum.

The "thing" that concerns me about GT5p's physics is when you loose control over a car and this car starts to spin/skid at a higher speed and the slip angle is at it's minimum and doesn't increase, there is no reaction of the car from the wheel/pedal's input. So, if you loose control over a car and the car starts to spin at a very low slip angle, the car keeps on spinning/skidding, even if the slip angle doesn't increase, until you hit a wall or get off track. AFAIK, IRL when a car starts to spin at a very low slip angle, you must be able to gain control over the car. IRL, when you loose a car, and you slam the brakes (which isn't wise to do) you will get a reaction from the car, when you start to countersteer there will be a reaction of the car, when you apply throttle (which isn't also wise to do), you get a reaction of the car. If this happens in GT5p there is NO reaction at all. The car keeps on spinning/skidding until you hit something or go off track or the speed of the car has been reduced to a minimum and then and only then there is a reaction of the car to the input (what ever this input is).

With my limited knowlegde of car control, I think this isn't realistic. It is very important that you take in account what I wrote in red, above. If the slip angle does increase and crosses the maximum slip angle of that particular car, which you are driving, you will loose control over this car. But in what I described, the slip angle is far below the car's maximum slip angle and doesn't even increase and yet there is no reaction of the car what so ever and you can't re-gain control over the car, whatever you try. Is this due to the tire physics, weight transfer or speed physics, .... I don't know. It just doesn't "feel" right.

I don't know if I'm right and if not then correct me.
 
I believe what you are saying is that in GT5P, when the car starts sliding (esp. a car like Merc SL55 AMG) a fair bit, your actions (brake, throttle, steering) will not affect the car in any way. And I agree with you, it seems like that to me as well, and that's not really realistic.
 
I just played GT5P today after a long break myself, hopped right into the known to be slippery Corvette Z06. From what I understand of those comments I shouldn't be able to catch a beginning slide but a really quick sawing movement with the wheel, sometimes combined with a slight lift of the throttle, works very well. The tyres hadn't even begun smoking by the time it was back under control. There certainly was a reaction from the car as it informed me I'd better do something, quick. When I did it got back in the line.
 
MustangSVT
I believe what you are saying is that in GT5P, when the car starts sliding (esp. a car like Merc SL55 AMG) a fair bit, your actions (brake, throttle, steering) will not affect the car in any way. And I agree with you, it seems like that to me as well, and that's not really realistic.
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Having finally tried GT5:P, I agree completely. The ability to adjust a drift once you've started it just doesn't seem to be there.

In terms of sheer accuracy, I'm actually not sure which of these games is better. GT5:P isn't the most entertaining Gran Turismo yet, but it's definitely the most realistic. As mentioned in this thread, Enthusia is a somewhat vague "generalization," but it's a pretty damn good generalization. Meanwhile, GT5:P tries the "every detail accounted for" approach but fumbles in a few key areas in the process (I'm not even sure the basic structure of the engine is sophisticated enough to get the results PD is striving for). One is flawed because it's too easy, the other is just as flawed because it's too hard.

So...there's no clear victor. But I definitely know which one I'd rather play. :)
 
you missed the opportunity to play with the old physics by 3 days........I enjoyed the game more pre update but am yet to try with N tyres as many have suggested.
PS I havent played EPR since GT5P, maybe enjoying online/cockpit veiw/ferrari too much!
 
i've only played gt5 HD in store. one thing i realize is that the wheels dont lock and create drastic oversteer if you speed and slam on the brakes while going on straights, like in TXRD2/LFS. it pretty much lunges forward like enthusia which makes it way easier to slow down before a corner. i didn't adjust brake balance since i usually play with harder rear brakes(easier to initiate drifting). i did disable abs and all traction control and other aids, and tried playing with lower grip tires in the rear(which makes the car almost unhandlabe in the previously mentioned games).

other stuff seem really good, gt5's slipping feels like you are really slipping visually which i havent seen another game do(ps3 power). it's hard to compare anything else since i only played a demo for a few minutes in store with a controller instead of a wheel.
 
Well, today I ordered Enthusia cheaply online. Hopefully in a few days time I'll be able to give my thoughts on physics 👍
 
homeforsummer
Well, today I ordered Enthusia cheaply online. Hopefully in a few days time I'll be able to give my thoughts on physics 👍
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Funny thing, with my sister's new PS3 and the discovery of GT5:P at Blockbuster, hopefully in the next few weeks she'll allow me use of the system to play a rented copy for a couple weeks. Then I'll really be able to get a feel for the physics.
 

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