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Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by phil_75, May 24, 2015.
Who doesn't enjoy watching standard cars in 4K really?
The only standards I drove in GT5 were the ones I had to drive in GT-mode. In GT6? BMW V12, R390 road car, R390 race car and a quick test run in the McLaren F1 longtail to hear how it sounds compared to the Assetto Corsa version. That's it.
Maybe for PS6.
...Hmm. This debate seemingly doesn't want to simmer down.
My PS3 have been buggered up for a little while now so I can't confirm, but if my memory serves me right, two thirds of standard cars are all dupes. Maybe even more than that. Off top of my head, with exception of a handful of JGT, DTM, LM and group C cars, the rest are dozens upon dozens of Skylines, 3000GTs, S2000s, Miatas and the like.
...Are you crying for those to remain, with the argument of "they are unique, they have fans"?
PD's Premium car selection is plenty eclectic and outright weird itself, so this is pretty false.
An encyclopedia where a tenth of the pages have incorrect facts, and about a sixth of the pages are just copies of other pages.
Here, let me help you with that:
First lets recognize there are several types of SC. The most common distinction between SC and PC is the lack of interior view. For example the RUFs are a lot more close to premium cars (exterior) than to the Suzuki Alto or other SC like that.
I don't mind to have SC like the RUF or others that were retouched in GT6. They're still SC but they look very good (at least IMO).
Of course we have to draw a line somewhere. But atm I don't think the difference between the best possible SC and premium cars is as big as some people might think. The main reason to leave them behind is the visual aspect and I'm not sure if that is a good enough reason at the moment. Maybe in the future (with 4K resoution for example ^^ in every game/console).
If you ask me if I'd like to have all the SC converted to PC and with interiors, my answer is "Right now, please". But if that's not possible, I'd like to have them for some more years to enjoy. IMO GranTurismo is so much more than graphics or cool premium hot cars... I love some SC even if they don't look polished or if they don't have interior. Theyr'e great to drive and that's why I play GT.
On the other hand, since I love photomode, having 1500 PC would be "paradise".
It's not an easy answer. That's why I prefer to have SC instead of not having them.
Sorry if this doesn't make a lot of sense (I'm at work atm )
It'll be sad to see if standards go, most of my favourite cars in GT are standard and the chances of them ever being premium are next to none .
Ok let's be real. Yes it is a bad thing. Having a triple A game on a next gen console, with 10x the power of the old one, containing, by then 12 year, 2 gen old assets, is a bad thing. Yes it is.
GT3 Sold 15 million copies. Explain again how a massive car count is important? Obviously sales go towards gameplay regardless of car count, so long as it's a big enough number to support the game. Surely 600ish is a big enough number no?
What about them? GT6 Trophy stats indicate that 80% of players don't drive 92% of the cars and 70% of players don't drive 96% of the cars. Building a large garage, driving all the old standards. statisically appeals to a very tiny portion of the fanbase. I'm guessing that the proportion that wants all next-gen assets on a next-gen console is significantly higher. Nothing is stopping them from remodelling the icnonic standards and I agree that should be done. Scrap the rest and look forward, not back. If you build a good game no one will notice but a handful of people.
Here is the main problem I have with standard cars as they currently are. You really can't play the game with them like you can with the premium cars.
Racing: They aren't that bad here, other than having no cockpit view they are just crap quality versions of premium cars.
Customizing: The already limited customization in GT is limited even more for standard cars. I don't recall any having more than the option of a spoiler and wheels (which look like crap as they are all modeled better than the car they are on).
Photomode: This is the one that standard cars are pretty much useless for. You can use them, but they only look good from certain angles and no matter what the windows look stupid because they have them darker than a drug dealers windows.
If anything standard cars just magnify PD's insistence that you play the game their way.
I didn't mean banish niche vehicles in general, I meant banish niche vehicles that were introduced in the PS2 era and are currently still part of the franchise in the form of standards. Naturally you'll still have fun stuff like premium lunar rovers.
I'll agree with you on the incorrect facts, though I'd argue that the amount of cars that are 100% perfect functional and aesthetic copies of other vehicles but with a different name is certainly not 1/6th. Including numerous cars with only minor differences is justifiable with an encyclopedic mindset. And arguably, even the ones that are perfect copies with different names is also justifiable... to an extent. Certainly not justifiable under any other mindset...
So ugly is bad... Never mind potentially putting that 10x processing power to use for other things, the game has to look pretty first and foremost. Roger that.
I never said massive car count is important, only that it's what GT is going for and will continue to go for. Whether you like it or not is up to your own personal preferences. My preference is that I like it, though not as much as a massive track count.
That's an interesting way of looking at it. The way I see it, it's the exact opposite... Polyphony's giving us more cars, which means more options and more freedom to play the game how we want.
Sure, the standard vehicles are more restricted in terms of what you can do with them. But that's just technical limitations, not Polyphony making us play the game "their way". If their way involved pitch black windows and limited customization, then the Premium cars would also be like that.
GT6: 92,777 Game Owners
PSNProfiles is not affiliated with Sony or PlayStation in any way
Not sure why are you trying to build facts around those numbers. How do that site track their game stats? less that 93k "Game Owners" is only the 3% of a total of 3M of GT6 game units sold. Being conservative.
Sampling A random sampling of 1000 people is enough to predict the national tendencies of 330 Million people within +/- 4% most of the time. That's 0.0003% of the population. The GT6 survey has 10,000 times the participation rate of typical national surveys you hear about on the news. Good enough or are you going to argue that statistics that have 10,000 times the sampling rate of national polls are somehow less accurate?
I'll say the same as I always do, when this question is put to me...
No, no. Just no. PS2 relics in a PS4 game? Laughable
Well, I voted no. I mean, I let it slide on the PS3 since PD I guess didn't want to make their car list seem small, but on the PS4, nope. PD already has a good amount of high-quality car models, they should just do what Kaz has said that they're focusing on and make more "Premium" cars. Besides, the more popular cars that are standards wouldn't be gone for long. I bet PD will consider those in later games (that is, if they are around to make later games).
I know this is meant to be about a potential E3 announcement, but....
I really don't mind about standard cars either way, that is unless the low polys stay... The standards, if they return better be cleaned up to some extent, so they look relatively consistent at least.
Though, I think we can all agree that if the standards were taken out, there will be a greater focus on getting the sound and damage models for all of the premium cars correct. That's something I want to see above all else.
Whether standards stay or go, I have little to be concerned about the quantity and diversity of GT7's car list.
Oh yeah, the standards going will also get rid of the bulk of clones. Yet, that might only free up space for more GTR's.... :/
Would it be acceptable if FIFA 16 shipped with now retired players from 2005 without updating their models? Would it be acceptable if COD BLOPS 3 used the same engine as Call of Duty Tw.... Oh wait... ummmmmmm disregard that.
Seriously though, PS2 assets do not have a place in a AAA, in house game released 12+ years later.
FIFA's character models look absolutely nothing like their real-life counterparts outside of a select 12ish teams. If you want Civics that look like slightly tweaked Accords then EA's worth ethic would suit PD.
Maybe just maybe they could do this unfathomable impossible thing called make them premium.... just a thought.
Standards should go and the most popular ones should only be re-added as full premium models (Supra, E46 etc). The rest of the standards are relics of the past and need to be consigned to the history books regardless of how much nostalgia value they hold.
Nostalgia can only carry a series so far before it becomes more of a hindrance than a benefit.
Also, I don't expect GT7 at E3 this year.
That would be nice, but you know...
Statistics are great and all, but I already explained why this argument is irrelevant: If 60% of players only ever drove two cars regularly in GT, would that justify GT having only two cars? No, it wouldn't, for an obvious reason: Not everybody likes or drives the same cars. Even among the hypothetical 60% that only ever drive two cars, it's doubtful that there would be any significant overlap between the two cars that any of them drive (except if there's only one starting vehicle or only a couple starting vehicles capable of progressing through the early A-spec events)
The large car count appeals to the minority of players who do like collecting and filling up their garage, but that's not the only demographic it appeals to. Any single vehicle among the 1000+ could appeal to somebody who has a penchant for that particular vehicle... they don't have to be collection-obsesed to appreciate a vehicle in the game that other players don't. Sure, there might only be one Honda Odyssey enthusiast who plays GT... but it's not about him specifically, it's about appealing to anybody who has a specific vehicle that they like more than the average person does.
There's no need for what if's when you have the actual statistics right in front of you. The myth is busted that a large car list appeals to many players because most players don't touch the vast, vast majority of cars. Car collecting and driving hundreds of cars appeals to a very small minority of players. So the question for me is, do you design the game with those players in mind, or do you go the route of every developer in the history of gaming, throw away your legacy assets that cannot be upgraded, and start over on the new console? If the numbers were different, if half the players in GT collected 200+ cars then I'd say you had to cater to them because they are the majority of players and you can't afford to alienate them. But these statistics, in my mind anyway, at least open the door to the possibility that we over emphasize what is essentially a niche element of GT at the risk of alienating a larger part of the fanbase that wants everything to be new and shiny on the new system.
Bearing in mind that many of the 1000+ cars are duplicates, I struggle to think of someone who is unwilling to drive a Nissan Skyline GT-R R34 V-Spec II Nur '02 because they are actually a Nissan Skyline GT-R R34 Midnight Purple II '99 enthusiast.
Of course, some of the Standards are in fact quite unique. But if it's such an important car, all PD needs to do is give it a Premium treatment. Mind boggling I know.
Assetto corsa, project cars, IRacing etc. I own and have played them all. But only a couple have enough spirit, and the GT series is one of them. When I was a kid I remember leaving my PlayStation on for 3 days straight (because I had no memory card), so I could get 'that skyline' and turn it into a race car! These days GT6, a G27 and a decent monitor do it for me. The GT series feels like home to me, the only one that comes close would be IRacing (it's got the looks and the physics). It's not about premium and standard cars in 7 because the standards would look better than PS3 premiums anyway. It's about playability and re-playability, and so far PD has delivered for me every time. Until E3 everything is speculation, so I'm just gonna ride the waves for a few more days. Whatever PD brings to the PS4 will be awesome.
The standards will look better than the PS3 premiums? By what magic do 6,000 polygons look better than 500,000 polygons on a PS4?
Polygons aren't everything, for example project cars uses 60k polygons and looks a damn site better than GT6. And I was talking all black interiors on new standard models. It's details and rendering, not polygons
I think you're missing the point of having a big car list.
A huge roster isn't about being able to amass hundreds of cars, it's about being able to find cars you're interested in. In GT6, you could have 12 people with 100 car rosters, and none of them would have to have any of the same cars.
In GT6, you could have a pretty sizable roster just made up of old American Muscle cars, or Japanese kei cars. With a smaller list you might still have one or two of most types of cars, but it's not the same as having a dozen of each type of car.
Mind you, I'm certainly not saying the GT car list is perfect. It's far from it, especially when looking at newer cars. But having a huge roster isn't just good for those who want to collect hundreds of cars. It's good for everybody.
O.P. Someone brought it to my attention yesterday that the last day of the Paris Games Week is also the first day of the Paris International Auto Show. For those of you who don't remember, Sony has decide not to have a conference at Gamescom this year, so they can have one at the Paris Games Week.
Just food for thought.
I respect the fact that the standard cars are a great achievement for Gran Turismo back in 2005 when GT4 came out.
But come on, with Forza 6, Project CARS, Assetto Corsa, DriveClub all having spot on premium cars,
it just shamefull to have that old scrap in a new game.
So you saw a hypothetical statistic and chose not to actually read what I wrote. Okay then, let me try again.
The point of having 1000+ cars isn't so that players can amass hundreds of vehicles (though the players who want to can), it's so that players have 1000+ options to choose from for the vehicles in their garage, however many or few that might be. A person could only ever care to drive a single vehicle (aside from a starter that they more-or-less have no choice over), and they could still benefit from the 1000+ vehicle roster since it increases the chances that the game contains the one vehicle they want to drive.
Your "actual statistics" are the wrong statistics for this argument. Find me statistics that break down player usage on a per-vehicle basis (i.e. X players have driven vehicle Y)... then maybe you'd have stats relevant to supporting the idea of some vehicles are just dead weight. Though I'm personally of the opinion that if even a single person uses it, it's worth keeping. And even if absolutely nobody uses, say, the Honda Odyssey... there's nothing stopping somebody from suddenly deciding they rather like the Odyssey and wish it were in a driving game.
Now this is a legitimate rebuttal.
Don't let the fact that I claimed earlier that dupes could arguably be considered a legitimate addition to the game from an encyclopedic viewpoint fool you, I wholeheartedly agree that the dupes are a bit ridiculous and unneccesary. But arguing for/against dupes is a different argument than arguing for/against standards, even if there are more dupe standards than there are dupe premiums. On that note though, I don't think dupes are terrible. They do have a negative impact on GT, in the sense that they undermine the proclaimed car count and clutter up the dealership. A minor annoyance at most, and a trend I'd like to see them move away from, but it's not the end of the world either way.
Regarding converting standards to premium, I do believe they're working on it. But it's a slow process, and they've got to balance it with the creation of all-new premiums. Should a Honda Odyssey lover (sorry for sticking with this arbitrary vehicle as my example for so long!) have their vehicle mercilessly ripped out of the game, only to be told that it'll return to GT as a premium Someday™? Does it hurt anyone to simply leave it in as a standard for the time being?
I understand and appreciate the argument for visual consistency. I too find the inconsistency jarring, annoying and disappointing. But does my previous proposal of making AI use premiums exclusively not solve this? Visual inconsistency eradicated, unless you personally decide that buying and driving a certain standard vehicle is worth the visual compromise.
Standard should clear up once.