GT7 to be announced at E3? ... standard cars return! (Poll)

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Should standard cars be included in GT7?

  • Yes

  • No


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1241Penguin

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Don't let the fact that I claimed earlier that dupes could arguably be considered a legitimate addition to the game from an encyclopedic viewpoint fool you, I wholeheartedly agree that the dupes are a bit ridiculous and unneccesary. But arguing for/against dupes is a different argument than arguing for/against standards, even if there are more dupe standards than there are dupe premiums. On that note though, I don't think dupes are terrible. They do have a negative impact on GT, in the sense that they undermine the proclaimed car count and clutter up the dealership. A minor annoyance at most, and a trend I'd like to see them move away from, but it's not the end of the world either way.
Absolutely. I find that the term "dupe" has been extended towards cars that have even significant differences between them, for example the NSX Type S and NSX Type R. I have no problems with the idea of dupes in and of themselves.
Regarding converting standards to premium, I do believe they're working on it. But it's a slow process, and they've got to balance it with the creation of all-new premiums. Should a Honda Odyssey lover (sorry for sticking with this arbitrary vehicle as my example for so long!) have their vehicle mercilessly ripped out of the game, only to be told that it'll return to GT as a premium Someday™? Does it hurt anyone to simply leave it in as a standard for the time being?

I understand and appreciate the argument for visual consistency. I too find the inconsistency jarring, annoying and disappointing. But does my previous proposal of making AI use premiums exclusively not solve this? Visual inconsistency eradicated, unless you personally decide that buying and driving a certain standard vehicle is worth the visual compromise.
The tradeoff of appealing to every crook and nanny is that the game will lose its focus. Or, as Tornado puts it (since I can't word it any better):
I want Standard cars gone because PD was a first party studio that spent 8 years developing two games in a row that run with framerates all over the place (even after crippling single player races )and it's god damn ridiculous to hear the hubris about how they simply made a game too pretty for the PS3 to handle when there are a bunch of launch window PS2 cars driving around the track and the performance is still inconsistent. I want Standard cars gone because they represent the worst of PD's interview double talk and silly design decisions and laziness, in GT6 even moreso than GT5.


Something's gotta give.
 

RACECAR

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My one and only take on this whole standard issue (And its asking a lot but who cares, so is everyone else):

Make ALL of them Premium. They've started anyway as indicated by the Ruf Models as well as the Nissan R390s and the Mercedes CLK Touring Car so might as well finish the job. That way, the standard fans get their precious cars and the people who severly despise them no longer have to look at hideous PSP ports.
 
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Scaff

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It's not about premium and standard cars in 7 because the standards would look better than PS3 premiums anyway.
Citation required.

Polygons aren't everything, for example project cars uses 60k polygons and looks a damn site better than GT6. And I was talking all black interiors on new standard models. It's details and rendering, not polygons
No polys are not everything, and above a certain point you do start to get a diminishing return, but that's when you look at things like the 250k on DC in comparison to the 500k in GT6 (less polys in DC, but the better rendering and lighting in DC makes it look better than GT6).

However 6k and a unibody that we have with the standard models is not going to look better than GT6 premiums no matter how good the rendering or lighting becomes.
 

Johnnypenso

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So you saw a hypothetical statistic and chose not to actually read what I wrote. Okay then, let me try again.

The point of having 1000+ cars isn't so that players can amass hundreds of vehicles (though the players who want to can), it's so that players have 1000+ options to choose from for the vehicles in their garage, however many or few that might be. A person could only ever care to drive a single vehicle (aside from a starter that they more-or-less have no choice over), and they could still benefit from the 1000+ vehicle roster since it increases the chances that the game contains the one vehicle they want to drive.

Your "actual statistics" are the wrong statistics for this argument. Find me statistics that break down player usage on a per-vehicle basis (i.e. X players have driven vehicle Y)... then maybe you'd have stats relevant to supporting the idea of some vehicles are just dead weight. Though I'm personally of the opinion that if even a single person uses it, it's worth keeping. And even if absolutely nobody uses, say, the Honda Odyssey... there's nothing stopping somebody from suddenly deciding they rather like the Odyssey and wish it were in a driving game.
Your entire argument is that someone might choose a car therefore we have to keep all the cars. I don't find that very compelling sorry. I also find it curious that other AAA game games don't use 12 year old legacy assets because "someone might choose them" and seem to get along just fine creating up to date content for next gen consoles and scrapping all the old stuff. The statistics clearly show that car collecting isn't popular and that the vast, vast majority of car list isn't used by the vast majority of people. Clearly someone might choose one of them, is a very very rare occurance and to me, not a legitimate basis for recycling 12 year old content.
 
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I am for keeping them (well, not ALL of them. Those dozens of Skyline and MX-5 trims and subtrims and model years can be reduced a lot) unless they're upgraded to premium. True, 800 cars will need a ton of time to get upgraded - but guys, the premium list is 400 cars. Just by converting the most important 100 standards GT would crush... well, pretty much any other driving game.
Hell, most driving games today have, what? 30? 40? 50? cars. Forza, which is GT's main competitor, will have "450+" in 6 according to what I've heard.

Long story short: if standards bother you so much remember that we've still got one of the industry's biggest car lists just counting the premiums.
 

Johnnypenso

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I am for keeping them (well, not ALL of them. Those dozens of Skyline and MX-5 trims and subtrims and model years can be reduced a lot) unless they're upgraded to premium. True, 800 cars will need a ton of time to get upgraded - but guys, the premium list is 400 cars. Just by converting the most important 100 standards GT would crush... well, pretty much any other driving game.
Hell, most driving games today have, what? 30? 40? 50? cars. Forza, which is GT's main competitor, will have "450+" in 6 according to what I've heard.

Long story short: if standards bother you so much remember that we've still got one of the industry's biggest car lists just counting the premiums.
Depending on how many cars PD releases for GT7, and removing all the duplicates and "base models", it's quite possible Forza could surpass GT in car count in the Forza 6 era, or Forza 7 at the latest. That's an interesting turn of events.
 
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I voted no because I'm tired of the constant whining and arguing over them. Sucks because some of my favorite cars in the game are standards.
 

sparkytooth

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They upgraded the DTM?
That one and the Calibra touring cars have been given upgraded models for GT6. They're still not full blown premium cars.
 
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Your entire argument is that someone might choose a car therefore we have to keep all the cars. I don't find that very compelling sorry. I also find it curious that other AAA game games don't use 12 year old legacy assets because "someone might choose them" and seem to get along just fine creating up to date content for next gen consoles and scrapping all the old stuff. The statistics clearly show that car collecting isn't popular and that the vast, vast majority of car list isn't used by the vast majority of people. Clearly someone might choose one of them, is a very very rare occurance and to me, not a legitimate basis for recycling 12 year old content.

You know what I find odd. You're usually the one always pushing for more player choice, except when it comes to standard cars. You like to use the argument "how would it effect you?" when defending things like making all of the cars available from the start, and yet that mentality goes out the window when it's something you don't want in the game.

Based on your logic the clear answer would be to keep them in the game and give player the option to use them if they with.
 
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I was thinking to myself and... I thing the hardest part of a car to model is the interior right? (more angles, more shapes, more textures, more moving parts) So, assuming this is correct... would people still mind the "standard cars in GT7" if they had premium exteriors and no interiors? Like the VGTs? I mean, I use A LOT the interior view, but pains me a little imagining some of the cars disappear if not converted to totally premium, as much as it pains me seeing standard cars in the game... So would this be a good middle term for everyone? Everyone would be happy with it, I think, the number of premiums would keep growing (new additions to the game and converted standard to premium cars), and we would'nt loose anything, and maybe, over the time, we could get some convertions to full premium every update. What do you think?
 

Johnnypenso

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You know what I find odd. You're usually the one always pushing for more player choice, except when it comes to standard cars. You like to use the argument "how would it effect you?" when defending things like making all of the cars available from the start, and yet that mentality goes out the window when it's something you don't want in the game.

Based on your logic the clear answer would be to keep them in the game and give player the option to use them if they with.
It is odd isn't it, Johnnyoptions trying to limit options:sly:Clearly though, options have to be limited. For example I doubt few players would really think it's a good idea for the game to include PS1 assets. Sure it could be an "option" but it's a pretty silly option. 6k polygon cars in an era where your competition has 80-250k in game is ridiculous IMO. No interiors when all your competition has interiors would make GT7 a second class game IMO.

My position all along has been the same - a next gen game should only have next gen worthy content. It's standard practice in pretty much all gaming and I see no reason why GT should be any different. Having said that, if PD found a way, and I can think of a couple, to allow players to use standard cars and tracks but not have them as part of the career or AI, I'd have no trouble with that. Something like allowing players to download them as DLC and only be playable on their console would work, I could care less what anyone else does with the game. I just don't want my game cluttered with crappy looking old cars and tracks ported from a game 12 years old.
 
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Looks like Kaz isn't paying attention to the competion. What he needs to realize is that even if you dump the standards you will still have over 400 premiums along with the new cars coming to gt7 and the ones they might possibly upgrade to premiums that was standard before. Even though that interview was like 2 years ago when he confirmed that standards was going to be in gt7 I hope he kinda had a change of mind ever since then. Quality over quanity. Someone needs to say this to kaz.... Well his translator that is and he can tell kaz.
 
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Looks like Kaz isn't paying attention to the competion. What he needs to realize is that even if you dump the standards you will still have over 400 premiums along with the new cars coming to gt7 and the ones they might possibly upgrade to premiums that was standard before. Even though that interview was like 2 years ago when he confirmed that standards was going to be in gt7 I hope he kinda had a change of mind ever since then. Quality over quanity. Someone needs to say this to kaz.

I don't think this is going to happen. This is Pokemon, GT style.
 
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phil_75
i love standard cars. they're filled with much character i mean the handling. you will never get bored to try them. and it is realistic to own a peugeot 206 rather than mclaren p1 and make a direct comparison in real life because i can drive it in real life :) standard cars maybe bad looking in the game but we still can have a advantage of it being in the game. however lets hope we can choose wether to choose all premium/standard/combination between them in the race so it may wont hurt your eyes to much when watching the replay action :)

Again, i think some people are getting "standard" cars mixed up with, for want of a better word, everyday cars.

Everyday cars is what is the most appealing thing to me. Every game does supercars, i can drive them in every game.

For clarity, standard cars are the PS2 era cars, which are all kind of cars, supercars, racecars & everyday cars.
The ones Polyphony Digital have had 10+ years to make when other devs can get full games out in in a fifth of that time.

No excuses.
 

Tenacious D

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The tradeoff of appealing to every crook and nanny is that the game will lose its focus.
I'd like to see the explanation that a game which is intended to be a car encyclopedia will lose its focus if it has a lot of cars. Would GT lose its focus if it had too many tracks, considering that the essence of a racing game is having a wealth of both car and track assets to play with?

I think people have gone to reaching to justify the non-Standard position.

How upsetting will it be to see Standard cars in GT7? I mean seriously, how upset will you be? Would you be as upset as someone who finds out in a universe in which Standards are removed that they can't have their favorite cars? I love a LOT of cars in Gran Turismo, and most of them aren't Prems.

Too many people carry on as if people wanting Standards are wrong, and the Standard haters are right.
 

Lain

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Your entire argument is that someone might choose a car therefore we have to keep all the cars. I don't find that very compelling sorry. I also find it curious that other AAA game games don't use 12 year old legacy assets because "someone might choose them" and seem to get along just fine creating up to date content for next gen consoles and scrapping all the old stuff. The statistics clearly show that car collecting isn't popular and that the vast, vast majority of car list isn't used by the vast majority of people. Clearly someone might choose one of them, is a very very rare occurance and to me, not a legitimate basis for recycling 12 year old content.

First off, there's nothing to "buy". You either like PD's approach of including and keeping all different kinds of vehicles in GT, or you don't like it. If there was a Premium Honda Odyssey in the game, you wouldn't be arguing for it to be removed from the game despite the fact that everybody would continue to not use it. The whole "somebody might choose it" argument is still the sole argument for it being in the game, yet it would be a non-issue. Some players might grumble that PD wasted their time modeling it when they could've done a more "worthy" vehicle, but GT has always had all manners of vehicles in it. And if you're still complaining about GT's poor car roster 6 iterations into the series, you'd think you'd have figured out that it's not the right game for you by now.

And finally, even if you still don't "buy" all that... we still need stats that break down usage per car for your argument to be valid. Saying (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Stats indicate that most players don't collect a lot of cars, therefore they obviously aren't using the standard ones and they should be removed from GT" is a non-sequitur.
 

1241Penguin

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I'd like to see the explanation that a game which is intended to be a car encyclopedia will lose its focus if it has a lot of cars.
Well then that's news to me. I never knew GT's goal first and foremost was to be a "car encyclopedia." Not entirely sure where you get this idea from.

Then again, your "car encyclopedia" would be a pretty poor one to begin with given the multitude of inaccuracies and the fact that a good amount of the items are essentially copied and pasted.
Would GT lose its focus if it had too many tracks, considering that the essence of a racing game is having a wealth of both car and track assets to play with?
...Wait, nope. Guess GT isn't just about being a "car encyclopedia" eh?


Your comparison makes no sense.
I think people have gone to reaching to justify the non-Standard position.

How upsetting will it be to see Standard cars in GT7? I mean seriously, how upset will you be? Would you be as upset as someone who finds out in a universe in which Standards are removed that they can't have their favorite cars? I love a LOT of cars in Gran Turismo, and most of them aren't Prems.
For a once highly renowned game developer with a reputation for high quality products, including beautiful graphics (something that Kaz loves to brag about), I would certainly expect quite a bit more from them. Frankly, if you can't see why some feel that a PS4 GT game with standard cars will become a laughingstock, then I'm so sorry for you.
Too many people carry on as if people wanting Standards are wrong, and the Standard haters are right.
As opposed to... you?
 

Lain

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For a once highly renowned game developer with a reputation for high quality products, including beautiful graphics (something that Kaz loves to brag about), I would certainly expect quite a bit more from them. Frankly, if you can't see why some feel that a PS4 GT game with standard cars will become a laughingstock, then I'm so sorry for you.

You expect more from Polyphony... so you want them to remove content? You're getting more from Polyphony that way?

And GT might be a laughingstock if its PS4 iteration continues on with PS2 assets, sure, but that matters to you? Are you afraid that you'll be embarrased to be a GT fan? Or are you gonna be one of the people laughing, because "haha 2-gen old graphics, how pathetic"? No offense, but I find the whole "GT will be a laughingstock!" standpoint to be very shallow.

I don't think including 2-gen old graphics is anything to be embarrased about, nor is it pathetic. I think that they should be better segregated from the new models, so that they only crop up if you're fine with 2-gen old graphics. Kind of like how in the Halo HD remaster, you had the option of playing with original graphics... it should feel more of a completely optional supplement rather than something that's just intermixed with the rest of the game for everybody to deal with.
 
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Johnnypenso

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First off, there's nothing to "buy". You either like PD's approach of including and keeping all different kinds of vehicles in GT, or you don't like it. If there was a Premium Honda Odyssey in the game, you wouldn't be arguing for it to be removed from the game despite the fact that everybody would continue to not use it. The whole "somebody might choose it" argument is still the sole argument for it being in the game, yet it would be a non-issue. Some players might grumble that PD wasted their time modeling it when they could've done a more "worthy" vehicle, but GT has always had all manners of vehicles in it. And if you're still complaining about GT's poor car roster 6 iterations into the series, you'd think you'd have figured out that it's not the right game for you by now.
No, "somebody might choose it" is not the sole argument for it being in the game, otherwise why not throw the GT1/2 cars and tracks in there because somebody might choose them too. There are bigger issues which you can't see.

And finally, even if you still don't "buy" all that... we still need stats that break down usage per car for your argument to be valid. Saying (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Stats indicate that most players don't collect a lot of cars, therefore they obviously aren't using the standard ones and they should be removed from GT" is a non-sequitur
If only 1/25 cars is being chosen by the majority of players, it's not hard to deduce that the vast majority of cars see little usage. PD has the stats on individual car usage and should put them to good use to make premium the small handful of old standards that people actually use and can the rest.
 

Lain

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No, "somebody might choose it" is not the sole argument for it being in the game, otherwise why not throw the GT1/2 cars and tracks in there because somebody might choose them too. There are bigger issues which you can't see.

Have you seen a PS1 game in HD? Doesn't do them any favors. PS2 games in HD actually benefit from the increased resolution, because the 3D models are complex enough to where detail is lost at SD when they're not pressed right up against the camera. So it's pretty obvious why they chose not to carry assets over from the PS1 era.

Obviously there are more factors than just "somebody might choose it" when it comes to cars being in the game, I was just saying that a Premium Honda Odyssey doesn't have much going for it. It'd see virtually no real usage in the game, except out of occasional curiosity. And yet if there was a Premium Odyssey, you wouldn't be campaigning to have it removed from the game like you are with standards.

So what are these so-called "bigger issues" of which you speak?

If only 1/25 cars is being chosen by the majority of players, it's not hard to deduce that the vast majority of cars see little usage. PD has the stats on individual car usage and should put them to good use to make premium the small handful of old standards that people actually use and can the rest.
Okay, exactly. You don't care about all of the standards (ignoring dupes) making the transition to Premium, since you're not interested in "worthless" cars. But if you'd been paying attention over the last 6 entries in the series, Kaz doesn't see these cars as worthless even if they aren't viable options for serious racing and obviously won't see any considerable degree of usage in actual gameplay. Polyphony likes including cars simply for the sake of it, whether it's a particularly historical car or whether it's just some average minivan that maybe Kaz's mom had when he was but a lad.

So again, if that's not your cup of tea, fine. But that's the cup of tea that Gran Turismo is.

And I must reiterate... players only using 1/25th of the cars on average doesn't mean that all players are using the same 1/25th of the cars. For all you know, you could grab 25 different GT players and each one would be using a different 1/25th of GT's cars... which would mean that 25/25ths (aka 100%) of the cars would be getting used. I'm sure Polyphony does have stats that break down per-car usage, and I agree that they should use it to determine which standards should be priority for Premium-izing. But I disagree about canning the low-usage vehicles, since the aforementioned cup of tea that GT is just happens to be my kind of tea.
 
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Have you seen a PS1 game in HD? Doesn't do them any favors. PS2 games in HD actually benefit from the increased resolution, because the 3D models are complex enough to where detail is lost at SD when they're not pressed right up against the camera. So it's pretty obvious why they chose not to carry assets over from the PS1 era.
This makes me curious what you consider "in HD" to mean for a PSX title.
 
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...? Uhh okay, then. Thanks for the offer though. 👍
Or a quick GT Wikia session... :P

Concerning the topic... I'm not sure. Sony hasn't been treating GT as one of its big properties lately, so I don't think so.