GTP Cool Wall: 1997-1998 Nissan R390 GT1 Road Car

[TheCracker]

Where can I buy on... Oh wait. You can't.

Yes but you can read about it on the pages of Wikipedia. That's the most important thing about cars. And being able to drive them in a computer game.

 

[dylansan]

So very seriously uncool.

Blah blah blah Le Mans Homogolation this... Blah blah McLaren F1 that...

Could you imagine the earful somebody would get if they asked about the car to somebody driving this thing or even worse; one of the car's fans?

(edit)

"So... that blue car... what is it?"

"Oh my gawd that's a Nissan Are-Three-Ninety-Gee-Tee-One Road Car."

"It's a Nissan? Looks like a Lamborghini or something"

"It's not just any Nissan, it's a Nissan based on a racing Nissan in the 90's!"

"Oh was this racing Nissan good?"

"Well, no it never won anything. It only raced twice though!"

"Oh... that's not very many... How do you know about it?"

"Well there's this Japanese video game-"

"One with tentacles?"

"No, there are no tentacles. It's a racing game with hundreds of Nissans and this one is really fast in the game and this one time I tuned mine to stage three engine tuning and put racing soft tires and I raced this one kid online who had a tuned Pagani and..."

Man, we are digging.

I'm curious where you're getting this image from, that the owner of this car would be some gushing weirdo with an obsession. Or if this is supposed to be a fan, why are we judging the coolness of cars on what it's fans are like? I'd be curious to see your impression of the average McLaren F1 fan.

There are valid reasons that this car isn't cool, but I don't see what this has to do with it.

 

[Exorcet]

Yawn.

Racing cars belong on the track - they just don't make good road cars, whatever the headline performance stats are.

Meh

It depends on what you want your road car to do. If you just want it to drive to a track, it's fine road car. If you want to just drive it around for the sake driving, it might do that pretty well too.

Not every car needs to be well rounded. If they all were it would be a tragedy.

Where can I buy on... Oh wait. You can't.

There's a really big list of cars you can't buy for various reasons. Cars out of production, sold elsewhere, too expensive. Even out of a bunch of reasonably priced and very accessible cars, how many will a single person experience ownership of? I'll probably never own a R390, but the same could be said for something like a MR-2. I don't expect to ever have enough resources to be able to afford every car I like.

Also, while it was brought up a bit jokingly, you can experience the R390 in virtual reality. Simulators are getting better with time. At some point, a pretty convincing drive of this car might only cost a few hundred or thousand dollars and be available to anyone, even if no physical copies exist. You'd be able to appreciate the engineering and any design quirks without actually having to bother with owning and maintaining the car.

 

[Zenith]

I'm curious where you're getting this image from, that the owner of this car would be some gushing weirdo with an obsession. Or if this is supposed to be a fan, why are we judging the coolness of cars on what it's fans are like? I'd be curious to see your impression of the average McLaren F1 fan.

There are valid reasons that this car isn't cool, but I don't see what this has to do with it.

It's what we call a joke.

The fact is that this car needs to be explained to 99% of people and that's not cool. The explanation itself is seriously uncool. It's based on a failed racing car, a super car made by Nissan, and most of its following know it from a video game.

A McLaren F1 is more well known and can be explained like this "It was made to be the ultimate sports car using the cutting edge of technology and it was the fastest car in the world for years and the driver sits in the middle. Neat huh?"

 

[dylansan]

It's what we call a joke.

The fact is that this car needs to be explained to 99% of people and that's not cool. The explanation itself is seriously uncool. It's based on a failed racing car, a super car made by Nissan, and most of its following know it from a video game.

A McLaren F1 is more well known and can be explained like this "It was made to be the ultimate sports car using the cutting edge of technology and it was the fastest car in the world for years and the driver sits in the middle. Neat huh?"

A joke? Sure. But it seemed like you needed an excuse to make it.

I don't know why you keep bringing up the fact that it's a Nissan. I honestly doubt anyone would care about that if they saw it on the street. People don't hate the GT-R or older Skylines just because they're Nissans.

And I don't think anyone would demand an explanation for this car either, any more than people see a Lamborghini and ask "why?" People would see this car and form a judgement regardless of its history or purpose. And most people wouldn't know that it's well known from a video game.

Of course, there's the problem that few people are going to simply come across this car, which is a valid complaint. It does become less cool because it's essentially a Nissan Afterthought. And to some, it apparently looks like a melted mess. But I think the average person would be impressed by this car on first glance. And if someone really wanted some details about it, you could mention that it's the fastest Japanese car ever produced (according to wikipedia), rather than talk about how it's based on a failure.

 

[Zenith]

A joke? Sure. But it seemed like you needed an excuse to make it.

By excuse you mean the fact that we have a thread devoted to judging the coolness of the car?

I don't know why you keep bringing up the fact that it's a Nissan. I honestly doubt anyone would care about that if they saw it on the street. People don't hate the GT-R or older Skylines just because they're Nissans.

Cool wall, not Like Wall. I like the car a lot. It's just not cool. Super cars in general are uncool. Super cars made by companies known to make commuter cars are more uncool.

And I don't think anyone would demand an explanation for this car either, any more than people see a Lamborghini and ask "why?" People would see this car and form a judgement regardless of its history or purpose. And most people wouldn't know that it's well known from a video game.

Except everybody knows what a Lamborghini is. Assuming they don't mistake this car fora Lambo (very uncool), they won't recognize and will wonder what it is, hence the explanation.

Of course, there's the problem that few people are going to simply come across this car, which is a valid complaint.

Valid complaint? More like reason enough to pronounce the car seriously uncool all on it's own.

It does become less cool because it's essentially a Nissan Afterthought. And to some, it apparently looks like a melted mess. But I think the average person would be impressed by this car on first glance. And if someone really wanted some details about it, you could mention that it's the fastest Japanese car ever produced (according to wikipedia), rather than talk about how it's based on a failure.

There's no way to avoid that this car is based on a race car. Like any sport, success matters. This didn't have any.

 

[All Your Base]

Uncool because homologation special.

Uhh...
Lancia 037
Ford RS200 Evolution
Alfa 33 Stradale
Peugeot 205 T16
Audi Sport Quattro
...and those are just a few.

It's what we call a joke.

The fact is that this car needs to be explained to 99% of people and that's not cool. The explanation itself is seriously uncool. It's based on a failed racing car, a super car made by Nissan, and most of its following know it from a video game.

A McLaren F1 is more well known and can be explained like this "It was made to be the ultimate sports car using the cutting edge of technology and it was the fastest car in the world for years and the driver sits in the middle. Neat huh?"

It isn't all that of a failure. It placed 3rd, 5th, and 6th in the 1998 24 Hours of Le Mans, wiith the 3rd place behind a duo of Porsches.

On a side note: I am not trying to dig this thread.

 

[Zenith]

It isn't all that of a failure. It placed 3rd, 5th, and 6th in the 1998 24 Hours of Le Mans, wiith the 3rd place behind a duo of Porsches.

On a side note: I am not trying to dig this thread.

In the words of the great Ricky Bobby...

In all seriousness, a podium is impressive, but people tend not to find anything but big time success impressive for things they've never heard about. Who cares what the second best soccer/football team is?

 

[dylansan]

By excuse you mean the fact that we have a thread devoted to judging the coolness of the car?

My point was that an exaggerated representation of the fans of a car is not indicative of the coolness of the car. I get it was a joke, but are you now saying it was also meant as a serious criticism of the car?

Cool wall, not Like Wall. I like the car a lot. It's just not cool. Super cars in general are uncool. Super cars made by companies known to make commuter cars are more uncool.

I thought it was agreed by now that the cool wall is entirely useless because no one can agree upon a single definition of cool? I still enjoy perusing it because I enjoy discussion about interesting cars, but how are you defining "cool" in such a way that you can make such black and white statements like this?

Except everybody knows what a Lamborghini is. Assuming they don't mistake this car fora Lambo (very uncool), they won't recognize and will wonder what it is, hence the explanation.

Wonder what it is? Sure. Care? Probably not.

Valid complaint? More like reason enough to pronounce the car seriously uncool all on it's own.

Hey, it's incredibly rare, but at least there were two produced. There's only 16 of the XKSS, so 99% of people will never see one, and yet it still made it's way into Lord Kelvin's Ice Box. I really don't see how availability plays any factor in coolness whatsoever, but then again I'm interested to hear your definition.

There's no way to avoid that this car is based on a race car. Like any sport, success matters. This didn't have any.

I think you're overestimating what people care about. A car is not a sports team. Nobody but car people will care to look up this car's track record, just like nobody will assume it drives like a Micra just because it has a Nissan badge. The GT-R is now well known enough that a Nissan supercar is not unimaginable.


I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I'm seriously trying to understand your reasoning as you seem to have created pretty solid rules for coolness somehow, but given that the poll results don't seem to agree, it might benefit everyone to understand your angle in order to make more accurate votes. You treat this like it's common sense but that's clearly not the case.

 

[Zenith]

My point was that an exaggerated representation of the fans of a car is not indicative of the coolness of the car. I get it was a joke, but are you now saying it was also meant as a serious criticism of the car?

No...

It's meant to display coolness issues in a humorous way. It outlines the silly name, unfitting brand, race car status, unsuccessful race car status, and the fact that it's well known due to a video game. Of course it's exaggerated.

I thought it was agreed by now that the cool wall is entirely useless because no one can agree upon a single definition of cool? I still enjoy perusing it because I enjoy discussion about interesting cars, but how are you defining "cool" in such a way that you can make such black and white statements like this?

Because cool is something that society decides on. "People" in general don't think you look cool scraping over speed bumps and making a lot of noise in your 1990's racer-ish Nissan.

Wonder what it is? Sure. Care? Probably not.Hey, it's incredibly rare, but at least there were two produced. There's only 16 of the XKSS, so 99% of people will never see one, and yet it still made it's way into Lord Kelvin's Ice Box. I really don't see how availability plays any factor in coolness whatsoever, but then again I'm interested to hear your definition.

Availability most definitely plays a role. VW Beetles and Toyota Corollas are ubiquitous and this makes me judge the car and the person who is driving it on their decision to buy one. The same goes for extremely rare cars.

I think you're overestimating what people care about. A car is not a sports team. Nobody but car people will care to look up this car's track record, just like nobody will assume it drives like a Micra just because it has a Nissan badge. The GT-R is now well known enough that a Nissan supercar is not unimaginable.

If it's a race car, the obvious follow-up question is whether it is a good race car.

Uncool because Nissan has nothing to do with speed, it's uncool for the same reason a Walmart luxury watch is uncool even if it does perform like a high end watch.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I'm seriously trying to understand your reasoning as you seem to have created pretty solid rules for coolness somehow, but given that the poll results don't seem to agree, it might benefit everyone to understand your angle in order to make more accurate votes. You treat this like it's common sense but that's clearly not the case.

Simple, think about how people would judge one driving down the street. What questions do they have? Keep in mind that most people don't care about cars and don't know many of the important cars that car people do.

It's also well known that the poll almost always is the "Like Wall". People will see the OP, vote based on how fast or sexy the car is and never participate in the discussion.

 

[Liquid]

It's also well known that the poll almost always is the "Like Wall". People will see the OP, vote based on how fast or sexy the car is and never participate in the discussion.

Too many people see the poll options as:

Love it
Like it
Meh
Dislike it
Hate it

There's a difference between those and the poll options we actually use.

 

[GTPorsche]

Uhh...
Lancia 037
Ford RS200 Evolution
Alfa 33 Stradale
Peugeot 205 T16
Audi Sport Quattro
...and those are just a few.

And all of those had more than just 2 built....

 

[Liquid]

And all of those had more than just 2 built....

There were actually 26 road going Mercedes-Benz CLK GTRs, which must surely be the highest out of the 1990s LMP homologations.

Still doesn't make it any less uncool than the rest:

Nissan R390 GT1
Dauer 962
Porsche 911 GT1 Straßenversion
Mercedes-Benz CLK GTR
Toyota GT-One

Nissan - Two road cars
Dauer - Twelve road cars
Porsche - One definitely produced, twenty five in total unconfirmed
Mercedes - Twenty six road cars (plus two prototypes)
Toyota - Two road cars

 

[dylansan]

Simple, think about how people would judge one driving down the street. What questions do they have? Keep in mind that most people don't care about cars and don't know many of the important cars that car people do.

It's also well known that the poll almost always is the "Like Wall". People will see the OP, vote based on how fast or sexy the car is and never participate in the discussion.

I suppose I'm not so great at predicting what the average person would think, or how they would judge a car. But I'm still a little confused. You say we're supposed to imagine how people would react, but you also say it's uncool because you judge the car on how rare it is? Would the average person really care at all if a car was rare, so long as they at least saw it at all? As far as I'm concerned rarity just reduces the sample size of people who get to judge the car, it doesn't change their judgement.

The Walmart argument makes no sense to me. Nissan has made sports cars for their entire history. The GT-R is an icon which is well known to the general public. No one judges the GT-R poorly because Nissan also makes the Micra. Just like no one judges the Mustang poorly because they also make the Focus and Mondeo, thus preventing them from accepting the Ford GT as a real performance car. Just like nobody laughs off the NSX because it's made by the same people that make the Civic and Accord. Maybe if it was a Kia you'd have a more valid point.

About the video game thing, keep in mind Gran Turismo is not the only game it's been featured in. It's been in two Need for Speed games which, although isn't cool in itself by any means, probably indicates that the general public is vaguely interested in it. After all, unlike Gran Turismo, NFS is certainly more of a pop culture game, which represents the average person much better than GT. Okay, that still doesn't make it cool, but whatever.

Lastly, the car looks like a race car. There aren't many cars like that. For that fact alone I really have to imagine the average person would at least be impressed by the way it looks driving down the street (let's assume there's no speed bumps around). It's eye catching, unusual, and in my opinion, not ugly. Would people roll their eyes and move on? Probably. But they do that with anything that looks vaguely expensive, and it's more a judgement of the person than the car.

I don't know really. I guess I just can't picture the extreme negative reaction you imagine, because these people who supposedly don't care about cars apparently care a lot about what brand it's from and how well it raced. Just doesn't seem realistic to me.

 

[Leggy1]

One of my favourite cars.

Uncool.

 

[Heldenzeit]

Actually found another pic of the red one.

 

[Legro]

Actually found another pic of the red one.

It seems to have different version of the Nissan badge on a different place than the blue one.

 

[Heldenzeit]

It seems to have different version of the Nissan badge on a different place than the blue one.

Indeed it does. Interesting. I can't seem to find a pic of any of the racing models like that either.

 

[Wiegert]

Indeed it does. Interesting. I can't seem to find a pic of any of the racing models like that either.

The same badge design was used on the '97 race cars. Albeit in a lower position. One of the test cars however appeared to have the same badge in the exact same spot as the road car.

Worth adding that the red road car was allegedly stripped down and the chassis incorporated into one of the race cars shortly after that photo was taken.

 

[Liquid]

Good. The blue one looks better anyway.

 

[Wolfe]

Because cool is something that society decides on.

What society thinks is cool can be so uncool. And vice versa.

 

[GranTurismo916]

What society thinks is cool can be so uncool. And vice versa.

For example, the Bugatti Veyron.

 

[Legro]

For example, the Bugatti Veyron.

What kind of a society thinks that Veyron is cool? Seriously.

 

[GranTurismo916]

What kind of a society thinks that Veyron is cool? Seriously.

Pretty much everyone that knows little about cars.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

Sub-Zero, because homologation supercar, awesome looks, and slight bias. I love the R390, if I had to pick between this and a Nissan GT-R, I would pick this car in a heartbeat. Also, I don't know anyone that would bother explaining any supercars to a non car person.

 

[Legro]

Pretty much everyone that knows little about cars.

More like people that don't find cars very interesting, but do so just enough to watch Top Gear.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

Just one more thing to add, I honestly have not met anyone that would explain any car to me unless I was interested and I would do the same thing. I just don't see a point to explaining a car to a non car person unless they're interested.

 

[Zenith]

I suppose I'm not so great at predicting what the average person would think, or how they would judge a car. But I'm still a little confused. You say we're supposed to imagine how people would react, but you also say it's uncool because you judge the car on how rare it is?

I am inclusive in the word "people".

If somebody buys a Corolla, people judge them. People always judge other people based on the decisions they make.

Would the average person really care at all if a car was rare, so long as they at least saw it at all?

Yes.

As far as I'm concerned rarity just reduces the sample size of people who get to judge the car, it doesn't change their judgement.

I disagree. If there were ten Mona Lisa's...

The Walmart argument makes no sense to me. Nissan has made sports cars for their entire history. The GT-R is an icon which is well known to the general public.

Not in America.

No one judges the GT-R poorly because Nissan also makes the Micra.

Yes they do.

Just like no one judges the Mustang poorly because they also make the Focus and Mondeo, thus preventing them from accepting the Ford GT as a real performance car.

Hold your horses. Nobody is dismissing the R390420 GTLMGT7 as a performance car.

We're discussing coolness. Brand plays a role.

Just like nobody laughs off the NSX because it's made by the same people that make the Civic and Accord. Maybe if it was a Kia you'd have a more valid point.

The NSX and Corvette always suffered from something-to-prove syndrome. No matter how well engineered they are, they sit at the kids table with the Mustangs and the MX-5's because they aren't made by a company like Ferrari or Porsche. This is how they're seen by the public.

About the video game thing, keep in mind Gran Turismo is not the only game it's been featured in. It's been in two Need for Speed games which, although isn't cool in itself by any means, probably indicates that the general public is vaguely interested in it. After all, unlike Gran Turismo, NFS is certainly more of a pop culture game, which represents the average person much better than GT. Okay, that still doesn't make it cool, but whatever.

Ah yes, Need for Speed. Now that's a cool game for cool people.

Lastly, the car looks like a race car. There aren't many cars like that. For that fact alone I really have to imagine the average person would at least be impressed by the way it looks driving down the street (let's assume there's no speed bumps around). It's eye catching, unusual, and in my opinion, not ugly. Would people roll their eyes and move on? Probably. But they do that with anything that looks vaguely expensive, and it's more a judgement of the person than the car.

The driver is a part of the car.

I don't know really. I guess I just can't picture the extreme negative reaction you imagine, because these people who supposedly don't care about cars apparently care a lot about what brand it's from and how well it raced. Just doesn't seem realistic to me.

It's not realistic because the car will likely never be driven on the street. Another reason to condemn it to seriously uncool.

 

[mustafur]

Sub Zero, a Supercar made to race.


End of.

 

[dylansan]

I am inclusive in the word "people".

If somebody buys a Corolla, people judge them. People always judge other people based on the decisions they make.

Obviously you are included, but your judgement is not necessarily representative of anyone else.

Yes.

How do you know? This is where I can't keep up because I apparently lack the insight to know what other people think. Do you have friends who aren't car people but still tell you their opinion on cars? Have you heard people say "this car is so rare, it's completely lame"?

I disagree. If there were ten Mona Lisa's...

All your examples so far seem to indicate rarity is a good thing. The fact that none are on the road is a dealbreaker, but that's not the same a rarity. In all other cases, rarity seems to be cooler.

Not in America.

I disagree. They're all over the place here, and people know what they are.

Yes they do.

If you say so.

Hold your horses. Nobody is dismissing the R390420 GTLMGT7 as a performance car.

We're discussing coolness. Brand plays a role.

These same people who couldn't see the car without requesting an explanation also care more about who made it than they do about its actual performance. And they ignore the race car origins but still judge its losses. I can be cynical sometimes but this "average person" seems to see only flaws, and would think every car is uncool.

People think a Ferrari is cool because it's fast. They also know that all Ferraris are fast, so once they know a car is a Ferrari, they know it's fast, and that tells them it's cool. Nobody had a clue what the hell a Bugatti was until the Veyron, but once they found out it was fast, they decided it was cool.

Unless you don't think Ferraris or the Veyron are considered cool by the public, in which case I have no idea what would be.

The NSX and Corvette always suffered from something-to-prove syndrome. No matter how well engineered they are, they sit at the kids table with the Mustangs and the MX-5's because they aren't made by a company like Ferrari or Porsche. This is how they're seen by the public.

Brand recognition is certainly important these days. I'll get back to this.

Ah yes, Need for Speed. Now that's a cool game for cool people.

I believe I made it clear that's not what I meant. But young people get their information about cars from games like that, and it's undeniably a popular game enjoyed by tons of judgmental people. The average person thinks it represents "coolness" even if those people themselves are exceedingly lame.

Why do we care what a bunch of uncool people think is cool anyway? Isn't their opinion the opposite of what's really cool?

The driver is a part of the car.

So you're not disagreeing that people think expensive cars are uncool? Doesn't that go against the whole brand recognition thing?

If you don't think people dislike expensive cars, I don't understand your response here. It wouldn't apply to this car at all.

It's not realistic because the car will likely never be driven on the street. Another reason to condemn it to seriously uncool.

So far it's the only reason I agree with you on.

I can't get a grasp on how you picture the average person. Let me know which of these are accurate:
Corolla - Uncool
Lamborghini - Uncool
Ferrari - Cool?
Need for Speed - Uncool
McLaren F1 - Cool
NSX - Uncool (because not Ferrari)
Veyron - ???