- 2,364
- Albuquerque, NM
- BloodDiamondPant
Set enough small ones off and get acclimated to them
GTP Cool Wall: 2009+ Citroen DS3
- Thread starter White & Nerdy
- 131 comments
- 6,313 views
- 12,389
- Betelgeuse
- Beeblebrox_237
- 2,364
- Albuquerque, NM
- BloodDiamondPant
Very true.As long as it's not a big V8, that'd scare the crap out of them.
- 34,949
- Indian Falls, NY
- slashfan7964
- 2,364
- Albuquerque, NM
- BloodDiamondPant
To be honest some cars are best stock or near stock. Not everything has to be a fire-breathing high HP monster. I do understand where you are coming from and I was the same way when I was young. But now that I am older I appreciate many different cars. FWD and lower hp can be just as much fun as RWD high HP.
- 34,949
- Indian Falls, NY
- slashfan7964
I get that, trust me, but it's just a preference for me. Remember, I drive a stock FWD V6 minivan with about 160hp
Performance is on par with a lot of the late 1970's V8 cars and it doesn't bother me. But it's definitely not as exciting as a V8 as far as the vibrations, sound etc that they make.
- 27,163
- United Kingdom
You're preaching to the choir here. I've said for a long time, in several of these threads, that it's possible for a crap car to be cool and a great one to be uncool, or vice-versa.
What I'm saying is that you're taking qualities that are good about the cars and using them as a reason to call them uncool. Good gas mileage doesn't automatically mean uncool. A four-cylinder engine doesn't automatically mean uncool. A small body doesn't necessarily mean uncool. Yet all of these things seem to warrant an automatic uncool from you.
I don't mean any disrespect when I say this (and you may even agree), but I daresay it's because you don't really know any better. There are more than a few members of GTP who've never experienced anything beyond their own corner of the world and the vehicles they grew up with, and it results in a fairly lopsided view of the automotive world.
...and this is what I'm on about.
What you've done is looked at some numbers on the internet and been unimpressed by them. That is literally the worst way in the world of judging a car's performance, other than perhaps getting your opinions from driving cars on Gran Turismo.
The quickest road-going Minis, late Cooper Works models, did 60 in around 9 seconds. Doesn't sound much on paper, but then it's a tiny car that weighs in the 600 kilo range and sits on short travel suspension. It'd feel slow at the drag strip but in town the damn things feel like racing cars. I've driven an old 60s Cooper S race car around a cone course - again, you don't really care about not being pushed back into your seat because you're too busy laughing that your gentle-to-the-transmission start still resulted in more wheelspin than a top-fueler warming its tires. And the instant throttle response. And the noise.
If the opportunity ever arises - and it's unlikely to in America, I admit - have a drive in a DS3, or a classic Mini, or a European hot hatch. You can only fully appreciate such things in context, and context leaves you better placed to judged a car's cool. Sitting up in (presumably rural?) New York state doesn't leave you best placed to judge a car that's in its element in a place like Paris.
Disclaimer: I don't mean to sound preachy by the way, but in two trips across the U.S. and having written for an American company for coming on four years now, I appreciate the typical idealistic American car as much as I do the cars you find in Europe. Not everyone can afford to go traveling of course (I barely can
) but it certainly helps open your mind a bit.
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- 34,949
- Indian Falls, NY
- slashfan7964
Actually, that's very spot on.
...and this is what I'm on about.
What you've done is looked at some numbers on the internet and been unimpressed by them. That is literally the worst way in the world of judging a car's performance, other than perhaps getting your opinions from driving cars on Gran Turismo.
The quickest road-going Minis, late Cooper Works models, did 60 in around 9 seconds. Doesn't sound much on paper, but then it's a tiny car that weighs in the 600 kilo range and sits on short travel suspension. It'd feel slow at the drag strip but in town the damn things feel like racing cars. I've driven an old 60s Cooper S race car around a cone course - again, you don't really care about not being pushed back into your seat because you're too busy laughing that your gentle-to-the-transmission start still resulted in more wheelspin than a top-fueler warming its tires. And the instant throttle response. And the noise.
If the opportunity ever arises - and it's unlikely to in America, I admit - have a drive in a DS3, or a classic Mini, or a European hot hatch. You can only fully appreciate such things in context, and context leaves you better placed to judged a car's cool. Sitting up in (presumably rural?) New York state doesn't leave you best placed to judge a car that's in its element in a place like Paris.
Disclaimer: I don't mean to sound preachy by the way, but in two trips across the U.S. and having written for an American company for coming on four years now, I appreciate the typical idealistic American car as much as I do the cars you find in Europe. Not everyone can afford to go traveling of course (I barely can
You've made a good point. 👍
I can't really argue against anything you've said, it's all true.
- 4,209
- Wasilla, AK
I figure I might as well explain why I managed to give this car a rating higher than "uncool". To some degree, coolness is equivalent to "attitude" - the "I'm here, I'm loud, I'm fast, pay attention to me" quality of muscle cars and supercars. But in some cases, coolness can also be the result of a single standout quality that lifts a car above its competitors in some way. For example, the V6 engine available in a first- or second-generation J-car is such a quality, and any loudness or attitude they have is probably a result of that engine. Here, the difference isn't engine (many compacts have had bigger), but style.
For example, look at these:
(equivalent to Dodge Dart)
Despite some aggressive touches on the Honda and on some versions of the others, they all pretty much just look like blobs. Bloated blobs, many of them. The Cruze and Dart could even be called ugly from some angles. Many compact cars these days look like they should be lowered, chopped, or maybe even sectioned by a couple inches (some of them maybe even shortened a bit too) to get the look right.
But there are other ways of designing a compact car. You can always take styling themes that were normal, but could already be considered sort of cute, in days gone by, and modernize and upscale them into something many straight males would never want within 50 miles of them, even if some versions (once again) attempt an aggressive look:
That's not limited to compact cars, either:
Seems muscle cars are pretty much the only thing that can be styled in a retro manner without becoming sissy cars.
Or maybe you like cars that are all boxy and square and stuff:
(I was sure there was another one, but I can't remember what it is)
Over a decade has passed since Toyota put a tall-box body on a Toyota Echo/Vitz/Yaris and launched a youth brand (which almost immediately started appealing to old people because of the xB's practicality and fuel efficiency). Scion's box cars (and Scion itself) have almost completely faded from view, and Kia is trying desperately to convince people that their Soul still represents a hip, fresh, alternative form of transportation (with little success, if the number I see around here is any indication). When these types of cars first hit the scene, they depended on novelty to gain any form of coolnees, which itself can be seen as uncool in some circumstances. Now that the novelty has worn off, they're almost as uncool as the retro chick cars seen above. And they're UGLY!
Or maybe you just want a car that looks tall in general:
That really isn't an appealing look either.
Now, Citroen's designers decided they weren't satisfied with any of those choices, and they decided to take a fifth option: design a compact car that people might actually want to look at. Seems like a pretty obvious idea to me, but it seems like either the other manufacturers didn't bother to try, or they didn't get it right. The Citroen DS3 is actually a pretty good looking car, and if I lived in Europe for some reason I wouldn't mind having this car. Because of the small engines, it's still not really cool, but it's at least passable.
For example, look at these:
(equivalent to Dodge Dart)
Despite some aggressive touches on the Honda and on some versions of the others, they all pretty much just look like blobs. Bloated blobs, many of them. The Cruze and Dart could even be called ugly from some angles. Many compact cars these days look like they should be lowered, chopped, or maybe even sectioned by a couple inches (some of them maybe even shortened a bit too) to get the look right.
But there are other ways of designing a compact car. You can always take styling themes that were normal, but could already be considered sort of cute, in days gone by, and modernize and upscale them into something many straight males would never want within 50 miles of them, even if some versions (once again) attempt an aggressive look:
That's not limited to compact cars, either:
Seems muscle cars are pretty much the only thing that can be styled in a retro manner without becoming sissy cars.
Or maybe you like cars that are all boxy and square and stuff:
(I was sure there was another one, but I can't remember what it is)
Over a decade has passed since Toyota put a tall-box body on a Toyota Echo/Vitz/Yaris and launched a youth brand (which almost immediately started appealing to old people because of the xB's practicality and fuel efficiency). Scion's box cars (and Scion itself) have almost completely faded from view, and Kia is trying desperately to convince people that their Soul still represents a hip, fresh, alternative form of transportation (with little success, if the number I see around here is any indication). When these types of cars first hit the scene, they depended on novelty to gain any form of coolnees, which itself can be seen as uncool in some circumstances. Now that the novelty has worn off, they're almost as uncool as the retro chick cars seen above. And they're UGLY!
Or maybe you just want a car that looks tall in general:
That really isn't an appealing look either.
Now, Citroen's designers decided they weren't satisfied with any of those choices, and they decided to take a fifth option: design a compact car that people might actually want to look at. Seems like a pretty obvious idea to me, but it seems like either the other manufacturers didn't bother to try, or they didn't get it right. The Citroen DS3 is actually a pretty good looking car, and if I lived in Europe for some reason I wouldn't mind having this car. Because of the small engines, it's still not really cool, but it's at least passable.
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- 27,163
- United Kingdom
That might be one of the best posts you've ever written in one of these threads. I don't agree with some of it of course, but you've managed to fill most of it with sensible discourse, clear explanations and a refreshing lack of needless stereotyping. More like that, please.
- 5,551
- Controls set for heart of sun
- GTP_RogerTheHors
Did W&N just say something sane? (Even if he still tried to use a woefully underpowered V6 as an excuse for the J-Body, and went on a rant about "sissy" cars.)
- 34,949
- Indian Falls, NY
- slashfan7964
@White & Nerdy
For me, if its going to be cool, it has to meet this:
"I'm here, I'm loud, I'm fast, pay attention to me". That's just how I see things. But I get your point.
For me, if its going to be cool, it has to meet this:
"I'm here, I'm loud, I'm fast, pay attention to me". That's just how I see things. But I get your point.
- 17,720
- Florida
- GranTurismo0517
- RandomCarGuy17
I voted cool, I love the DS3!
- 4,040
- UK
- ReTyger
Do you also see these as positive traits in a person? If I am in a bar and someone walks in all "I'm here, I'm loud, pay attention to me", I don't think "Wow he is so cool, when I grow up I want to be just like him". I think he's an obnoxious egotistical moron.
And let's not forget that to many of us and car enthusiasts in general, the measure of an exciting car and its performance is how fast it will hoon around a track, not how quickly it reaches a quarter mile in a straight line, and how much smoke, noise and rubber it puts down along the way. A top of the range DS3 would probably blow a lot of muscle cars out of the water on anything other than an oval. But yeah, vive le difference, and all that
Back on topic, it's a cool from me. Love the way the styling of French cars is going nowadays, and these do stand out alongside the kind of featureless "blobs" W&N called out above.
- 34,949
- Indian Falls, NY
- slashfan7964
A person is not a car. They are 2 totally different things. Though what you are saying can go either yes or no depending on the settings etc. There are too many variables for a solid answer.
I prefer drag racing, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy circuit racing either. I see what you are saying though, don't get me wrong.
A top of the range DS3 would probably blow a lot of muscle cars out of the water on anything other than an oval. But yeah, vive le difference, and all that
Oh I can guarantee it will destroy a lot of the heavier, lower horsepower ones, in stock form anyways.
Most logical thing I can think of is they probably don't meet federal emissions and safety regulations. Same reason a lot of imports can't be imported or sold here.
@Bc4 -- According to Wikipedia, Citroën left in the 1970s when NHTSA regulations outlawed some of the design features of their cars (probably the ones regarding headlights/bumpers that have since been rescinded), and Peugeot left around 1991 because they couldn't compete and sales were low. Renault had partnered with AMC and sold multiple models through the 1980s, but they picked up a reputation for poor quality, Chrysler bought AMC in 1987, and Renault imports ceased in 1989.
There probably isn't much in terms of emissions/safety requirements stopping them from exporting here today, but it would be expensive to make the effort, and particularly risky considering they already have some reputation for building crappy cars.
There probably isn't much in terms of emissions/safety requirements stopping them from exporting here today, but it would be expensive to make the effort, and particularly risky considering they already have some reputation for building crappy cars.
- 4,209
- Wasilla, AK
That's what I was going to say, but performance might have had something to do with it as well (remember, even during the dark days of the 70's and 80's, American buyers still probably felt they deserved better than the average European car). Many French and mainstream Italian cars of the past were barely able to move under their own power even when working properly, which they rarely were. I didn't realize Citroen left that long ago though.
Downhill Dino
Premium
- 11,723
- Maryland
- DownhillDinosaur
I find it a little hard to appreciate modern Citroens, just never really could get into them. The styling is kind of off-putting but appealing at the same time. It looks almost ahead of today's automotive designs. Maybe that's because I'm here in the U.S. I'm sure it doesn't look too far out there in Europe.
For its looks, it kind of brings it down. I love hot-hatches though, and I very much like the WRC pedigree. Cool is as far as I go.
For its looks, it kind of brings it down. I love hot-hatches though, and I very much like the WRC pedigree. Cool is as far as I go.
- 1,528
- Melbourne
- Conza_No1
Well I think the votes speak for themselves - yet another cool vote here.
It's just not quite sub-zero imo, I really really like it, the upper end of cool for sure, and the best use of that 1.6 engine I can think of (including RCZ, All Minis, ect). There is something holding me back from sub-zero... I don't know what though, if a friend of mine bought one of these I'd be gushing all over it "Wow no way! How awesome!".
It's just not quite sub-zero imo, I really really like it, the upper end of cool for sure, and the best use of that 1.6 engine I can think of (including RCZ, All Minis, ect). There is something holding me back from sub-zero... I don't know what though, if a friend of mine bought one of these I'd be gushing all over it "Wow no way! How awesome!".
- 8,191
- Southern Louisiana
- GTP_Kent
Translation for Americans: You don't deserve to judge a car's coolness. Or well, maybe just Slash.
And well, maybe just if you disagree regarding the mind-blowing performance of small cars and the way they feel v. the actual numbers.
Funny thing is, I can totally understand having spent so much of my life driving economy cars with less than 140 hp on a 4 speed auto in cars that were often well under 3000lbs.
Not quite as light as some of the stuff mentioned here but the idea remains the same.
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