GTrr™

[Timppaq]

**texts removed**

Without the accessories

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4149/5060413171_9a7c5b73c3_z.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/5060412033_111dd9a380_z.jpg

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and with..

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4145/5060418185_927961554c_z.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/5060413707_d32d72952a_z.jpg

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A few pics of my current driving position

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1229/5103008336_ccc22a788d_z.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/5102383269_f816d01a00_z.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1425/5102384141_77317ac4df_z.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1361/5102383835_971fbe5702_z.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4013/5102383525_781e92a0c3_z.jpg

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Without the screen table

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[suvalle55]

That looks like a good design, though might be kind of expensive, no?

 

[Radracing]

Got any side elevation drawings? It's a little hard to tell how it looks from just the top view.

 

[Mr Latte]

Let me be the first to say well thanks for sharing these and going to the bother.

Id agree, would like to see more angles.

Timppaq, how are we meant to comment and discuss this?
From the perspective this is your cockpit or a cockpit that your designing/building to possibly one day put to the market?

One point I would like to query.
The triple monitors Ive found they need to be attached to some form of mounting/bracket. Sitting on their own bases makes them too easy to move about and the slightest bit effects the alignment. So getting in and out of the frame, having to move the cockpit and with them overhanging means it wouldnt be hard for them to get a tap and move.

I mention this really as Ive been using my 3x monitors in such a way on a temporary shelf and it constantly takes me aligning them, ahhhh does my head in.
Deffo consider a secure vesa mounting option.

 

[Timppaq]

It's taken way longer than I though to get close to the point where I can be sending querys for the parts. I know it might look a little expensive, but that can only be a good thing? ( )

I know it's hard to tell a lot from these yet, but don't want to post side pics before I got the structure & parts finalized. The costs are a big factor here.. many changes have already been made to keep the costs lower, this must be the 3rd time I think it's ready. But the shape you see in these pics is the final or very close to it, maybe one corner radius or two could be different, but it's very much done as I'm fairly happy with the looks atm.

Latte do I hear doubt in your words? The triple monitors stand is meant to be a upgrade, so you can just bolt the "sidewings" on the rig and there you have it. So they are fixed to the main frame (to the same parts that hold the middle part) and will change elevation when the middle part elevation is changed. So they won't have their own "legs" either. The elevation adjustment for the screen stand might be a little cumbersome, and I'm still trying to find a way to make it little easier. Probably you want to get the screens off the table anyway (to be extra safe - a lot of money there) before doing the adjustment, so maybe not a big thing in the end..

I know these doesn't tell too much yet and therefore maybe not generate such a lot discussion, but I just wanted to make this thread now as the design is very close to being finished. Just minor things to be done / experimented to get the final overall look for the rig. That of course is a big part of it and with all the flexibility it is by no means easy to get this thing look somewhat decent. And of course, the pics from the 3d model can never give the right impression how it will look when built. It will alway look miles better in real life. And again this should be done without exploding the costs...

So this is firstly just my rig, as if the costs are way high I will only make one for me.. because this is the cockpit I can't find from the market now and I will build one regardless of the costs. (also really like the idea of having a cockpit that I've created from the start) But it can also be discussed as a rig that you can buy as there's nothing there stopping me from making another one and selling it. I've tried to keep the shipping & easy construction etc in mind while designing this, and luckily I feel that I haven't had to do any sacrifices because of it. So I guess it will be on sale if there is somebody wanting to have it. 👍 But not the main idea here, as I said in the other thread, I do this to get me a new rig for gt5 and everything else is another thing.

But thanks for the interest. Every question is good and it's also good for me having to think these things through once more, so keep them coming 👍

edit,

pics updated, but just minor details changed..

 

[Mr Latte]

Still confused.

I dont doubt your ability at all and I welcome everyone here to question my own build when more of it is shown.
Just was asking if you are not considering a secure "Vesa" mounting system for monitors. I understand what you say about the wings but every triple screen cockpit I know of that is any good does not have monitors just positioned on a shelf and using their own stands.

You could say if doing that well why not just build the frame and have the screens on a table, do you get me?

The elevation adjustment for the screen stand might be a little cumbersome, and I'm still trying to find a way to make it little easier.
Why does the screen section have to be able to change elevation?

Again if the screens were on mountable "Monitor VESA" brackets then they surely would allow changing of elevation meaning the actual base/frame does not. Much simplier method my friend.

 

[Timppaq]

Don't get me wrong... the doubting thing was just a joke. ..of course thought about the vesa thing, but for now I wanted them to be on a shelf, as I need the extra table space in the rig for all the accessories that partly are now lying on the floor. Pad's, notebooks etc.. you name it. (beer cans )

I will get back to the vesa thing too, but I'll go this route first and then prolly make another version with the vesa. This was just my preference as I have a screen that can be used as tv too, so there is need to get it easily off the rig once in a while..

Don't know what you meant with;

You could say if doing that well why not just build the frame and have the screens on a table, do you get me?

Don't want to need a table where the rig is.... so the "table" needs to be in the rig 👍 Also rarely you can adjust a table height (?) .. and the screens need to be really close to the seat, so don't really understand what you meant.

Another thing is the cost side.. doing a vesa mount by yourself could end up being quite expensive. And the ones being sold are quite expensive too..



But I do like the fact that you show interest and keep challenging me with your questions 👍 Thanks for that.. everything needs to be justified and well-founded 👍

 

[sniper69]

Hey Timppaq,

Love the 3D pics, what software do you use for that? Also, were you thinking of having a handbrake somewhere on your rig? I guess it would be too hard to add it at some point.

Will be keeping an eye on the build and might have to request one for me!!

Cheers

 

[Timppaq]

Hey thanks

and wow.. so rig #000001 sold (just kidding)

I'm using Catia V5R17 to model the rig 👍

As soon as there is commercial handbrakes available, I'll see what can be done 👍 As I said, there is no welds at all, so it's very easy to modify at later stage, for example to get the handbrake in.. so should very well be possible. Or did you have a handbrake already somewhere that should fit in?

 

[Mr Latte]

Dont worry their is no attitude between our discussions. I want you to challenge my own project decisions too friend.

Its clearer now in your last post as you refer to requirements you have/need.
Thats what I was meaning regards the table, cos if as a cockpit you were selling a user could simply opt for a obbuto,playseat and a cheap table.
So it was making reference to the project as a cockpit compared to other cockpits on the market.

As for VESA mounts yes they are expensive, though some cheap TV/Monitor stands are available. Check out companies online that specialise in Plasma/LCD tv mounts/stands/furniture. Use a little imagination though as really all you need is a few bits of cheap metal, holes drilled and a way that clamps the monitor to the metal.

Youll see my own idea within a week or so but its simple, stylish and ive never seen a cockpit do 3 way in the way my own will look.

Keep up the good work...

 

[Timppaq]

👍

I thought about it a little more and I do think it shouldn't be so difficult to mount the screens with vesa afterall.. I will think it through properly for sure.

Your project looks very good 👍 once I get clearer image of the whole concept & all the various parts you will have there I'm sure I'll get more involved.

 

[Mr Latte]

👍

I thought about it a little more and I do think it shouldn't be so difficult to mount the screens with vesa afterall.. I will think it through properly for sure.

Your project looks very good 👍 once I get clearer image of the whole concept & all the various parts you will have there I'm sure I'll get more involved.

We can only help each other and in that better our own projects mate!
Have a look here for inspiration on possible monitor mounts. They start from as little as £10.

Example Site

 

[Timppaq]

Thanks for the link 👍


Got the weight calculated... the rig weights now 23,5kg without the bolts & nuts etc.. Fairly happy with that as 30kg seems to be the general upper limit for normal packages.. and of course it's always better if the rig doesn't weight too much for easier handling.

 

[Mr Latte]

Okay your due another update, lol.
As Ive said in DRs thread youve got to keep up with updates and then you guys can pester me if I start to fall behind in mine.

 

[Timppaq]

Not much to report tbh.

I've been doing some stuff once again from the scratch. It's hard to say when you're happy enough with the outcome so you can move on to the build phase. But finally today I got the the laser cut metal sheets to a freezing point and put new querys out. Got the amounts a little lower and also simplified the needed parts a little bit. This all will make the rig that much cheaper to build.

Next thing tomorrow will be to do a drawing from the wooden panels. After I get a quote from those I pretty much have idea of the costs.

One thing I noticed today.. it would be really simple to make additional parts to make the cockpit fully enclosed Not sure if anybody would be mad enough to do it but maybe some day I'll try just for the fun of it.

 

[Stevisiov]

The gear shifter is on the wrong side.

 

[Timppaq]

Getting close to the real deal now. a little excited here as the build itself is getting closer. Had a little brainstorm and I think it would be really easy to do also a version without the platform for screen(s). Just like Playseats etc... Should actually be really simple and should therefore also be quite cheap to build. I wonder what do people actually prefer? I know I prefer the screen to be very close to me (say 3-4feet), but maybe there is more users that prefer a version where the big screen TV works as the game screen as well?? (and therefore not needing the screen platform)

Wanted to post some pics already, but untill I get the quotes for the costs back, I can't say what will be included so untill I know for sure that the pictures will represent the proto rig (& be very close to the final design also) it's better not to. But I'm 98% sure I can post some pics next week. Many things should be folding out during monday / tuesday..

Stevisiov, what do you mean with the "wrong side"??????



edit,

Suprisingly I got a last query today back (being Sunday and all) that I was waiting and it does look like I will be building the proto as it stands now. As soon as I can get back on to the PC with the Catia & the 3d models, I'll post some pics and hope to hear some feedback from you guys. 👍

 

[Timppaq]

So a few preview pics of the proto I will be building soon'ish. Any comments welcomed 👍 Just remember that this is only just a 3d model of a prototype, so hopefully everything will be much nicer looking when in real life - AND, everything is still open to changes...

edit,

pics moved to 1st post..

 

[zed300]

👍 Looks like you have achieved your goals.
Easy enough to assemble by the looks of it too.

The bracket that supports the wheel. Does it have angular adjust-ability? More drill holes in it for that purpose or does the render just not show this?

I like the fact that the seat is suspended it's a good look. Just a slight concern for longevity of the mounting bolts on it if a tall person is using it. The load on there, with the seat back would be fairly substantial, or have I missed something. The posts will be no problem, just the holes that the bolts go through to support the track, over time might elongate and the seat track would rock up and down.
Although the distance that it looks to be in your plan, seems like a tall persons position already.

All good though and very professional appearance. Well done. 👍

 

[Mars Attacks]

This project is the definition of adjustability!!! Very interesting:tup:

 

[Timppaq]

Looks like you have achieved your goals.

Easy enough to assemble by the looks of it too.



The bracket that supports the wheel. Does it have angular adjust-ability? More drill holes in it for that purpose or does the render just not show this?



I like the fact that the seat is suspended it's a good look. Just a slight concern for longevity of the mounting bolts on it if a tall person is using it. The load on there, with the seat back would be fairly substantial, or have I missed something. The posts will be no problem, just the holes that the bolts go through to support the track, over time might elongate and the seat track would rock up and down.

Although the distance that it looks to be in your plan, seems like a tall persons position already.



All good though and very professional appearance. Well done.

Thanks

And yes the wheel angle is fully adjustable (the current angle is +10deg)


the seat support is one of the things that really require the prototype. There are many ways make it more sturdy if necessary, but when doing a proto, it's somewhat better not to "overdo" it and then for the next ones just slightly make it better where needed. 👍 I hope that if the bolts that support the rack are correctly fastened, any rocking / wear should not be a problem but the proto will answer all these questions. But thanks for raising the question, it is a very relevant issue 👍

This project is the definition of adjustability!!! Very interesting

.. getting the rig adjustable & robust were my two main goals. We'll see how it ends up..

 

[Mr Latte]

Well done, nice to see more of this....
My own thoughts are this is good and solid if a little boxy looking in its styling but then im a fussy ole git.

Questions:
1) The seat mount does look different which is good but it would be carrying a lot of stress particulary if the runners were in a max forward but more worryingly max back position.
2) I also would question the importance of the extended length just to have a console sitting? The design seems to have approx 10-12" more length than it needs to have.

Perhaps get opinions of people regards this.
Is the shelf and this extra length a benifit or a possible disadvantage factor for people limited to fitting a cockpit into their room/house.

From a cost and materials perspective and something thats going to also effect shipping charges with weight. I'd question if a better solution was to reduce materials and weight but have the monitor shelf slightly deeper yet allow a console to be placed vertically behind the monitor.

 

[Timppaq]

Good points 👍

- The seat mount is going to be stressed yes, it is a knowing decision at this point. It'll tell me much of the possibilities in future and also I wanted to approach with little more "light look" But as I said, easily fixable in future, if needed 👍

- the lenght issue is a good one.. I will look in to it once more, although the total lenght is not very much atm. Without the seat the rig is 1300mm long (600mm wide without the 3-screen wings) I wanted to avoid putting all the stuff on the adjustable part.. But very good observations 👍 Gave me thinking once more.


I'll try to post soon some pics of a version without the screen platforms.. (raw version, but looks promising imo)

edit,

btw, the boxyness is a deliberate decision also. But it's easily possible to do whatever shapes to the side panels.. won't affect to the cost side much. The boxyness is good for saving floor space, but I did have quite interesting shapes there also. Thought to start with something maybe more "sophisticated" first

So as I said, just draw me a picture of how you'd like the side panel shape to be and I'll make it happen

 

[Mr Latte]

When you get a prototype made up test the seat full back with a 14-20 stone (200-280lbs) adult. Re looking at it I think its possible it could tip up with heavy build person if it was fully back on the seat runner.

The design is grand, just a bit shorter I think would make it more suitable for more people. You should try to determine if you can reduce costs, particulary if changes dont reduce the features or appeal of the cockpit. That to me is the area to target.

As a product "to sell" one of the biggest forms of competition is that many could copy its design and do their own d.i.y for less money than buying.

As a cockpit for youself its great...

 

[Timppaq]

When you get a prototype made up test the seat full back with a 14-20 stone (200-280lbs) adult. Re looking at it I think its possible it could tip up with heavy build person if it was fully back on the seat runner.

The design is grand, just a bit shorter I think would make it more suitable for more people. You should try to determine if you can reduce costs, particulary if changes dont reduce the features or appeal of the cockpit.

As a product "to sell" one of the biggest forms of competition is that many could copy its design and do their own d.i.y for less money than buying.

As a cockpit for youself its great...

If tipping concerns, the low bars can be extended very easily more backwards. 👍 But I do not think it'll be a problem even with the proto.

I'm at the moment doing the other version and that has given me again more ideas for different variations. Will look into a version without the platform for the ps3's, but keeping the main stand for screen. There might be a nice solution to make that version look quite nice in my eyes at least.

The platform where the ps3's stand now is there for two reasons;
- there is "free space" that can be used without losing any more floor space --> ideal place for ps3's
- didn't want to put all the weight on the adjustable platform. One reason for this is that the way it's connected now to the main frame might be totally different in the end and therefore the weight must be somewhere else. The truth is that the ps3's need to be somewhere and that's the most natural place them to be considering the cables etc...

I know this is basically very simple design, but what makes the difference in the end is the way of manufacturing.. I have access now to a lasercutter (metal plates) & CNC machining (plywoods) so the finish quality & accuracy will be something you can't get doing by hand. (some of the parts would be quite hard to do also without proper equipment, I think at least) You can get many things cheaper by doing yourself, and I don't mind anyone copying some ideas here for their personal usage.. it happens all the time everywhere, I've done it myself too sometimes.


edit,

here's a pic of something I've always wanted to do but never had the possibility to... temporarily put the seat hugging the ground, F1 anyone? (actually it still goes lower if wanted..)

[pic removed.. stay tuned]


Compared to more higher settings...

[pic removed.. stay tuned]



edit,

Just remembered - there is a 3rd reason for the "extra lenght" too:

If you want to invert the pedals, you'll need more space there..

[pic removed.. stay tuned]


edit,

Preview pics now in opening post too.

 

[myke6699]

I love the fact that almost everything is easily adjustable- especially the steering wheel and the pedals. If I may suggest something- some sort of an easel-type mounting for the monitor where you can adjust not just height of the monitor itself but also the viewing height. Something like this (but obviously with modern interpretation and something that will clear the space for the pedals):

 

[Timppaq]

I'm sorry but I got a little confused here.. there already is little adjustment for the screen height??

Is there something I've missed? (wouldn't suprize me tbh )



This might be my new seat for the rig:

I need it to be a recliner (occasional back problems) and I like the not too bulky look. Affordable too (399€ / pair - with the runners)

 

[myke6699]

I'm sorry but I got a little confused here.. there already is little adjustment for the screen height??

Is there something I've missed? (wouldn't suprize me tbh )

Sorry- I didn't say that yours isn't adjustable but it's just a suggestion on my part.

 

[Mr Latte]

Possibilities?

What about the seat and runners on some form of cylinder like an office chair / hairdresser salons use? This would allow quick height adjustment and instant release.
Boxy monitor support to me is not needed. Could be replaced with a simple metal bracket/VESA mount possibly on your own designed support upright. Quicker and easier to adjust the monitor, looks better and reduces weight/materials?

Discard the extra length mentioned earlier but still allow the pedal option for inverted pedals. Just reduce the size a bit. Have perhaps a more rounded front and top, just a bit more style would be nice I think. Have a placement for the console(s) just above the pedals and close to the monitor upright. Allow the upright to house the cables. Increase the length of the legs at the back for added support.

Heres my MS Paint edit, fantastically artistic
Only as a idea to reducing the size and getting away from the box shape

In all seriousness I think when you have a project going through building phase and proper testing you soon see things that we want to change or improve. My plans have changed so many times its crazy. However I believe the changes has got me to a point Im happier with how the end result will be. Dont take my comments as major criticisims but what I put forward as ideas is as if I was in your position to consider mate. I fully expect you to treat my thread in the same manner and offer your opinion in that and challenge any design ideas I show. Mine indeed is very large but its based to what I want, again if what you want for yourself and what may be a great design for possibly selling to others can be vastly different.

Youve got a great basis in this but for me in the current build it wouldnt appeal to me in a great way to buy one over some options already available.
If you focus as much on resizing and style as youve done a great job in the positioning options then it could go from good to great.

 

[nicka117]

Timppaq,

I've been watching your threads for awhile and I think the engineering behind your design is just outstanding. I'm sure it's fun to work on but also agonizing to a certain extent to find that exact point of diminishing returns as it regards cost vs adjustability vs options.

The two holy grails of sim rigs (IMHO) are adjustability and stability, and I think you've nailed those down extremely well. Isn't it funny how the design progresses from complicated to simple, and not the other way around? LOL Why don't the simple designs occur to our brains first??

Here are a couple of thoughts I have, assuming you are thinking about selling your design:

Be careful about having the tilt mechanism of the seat below the runners/sliders. The CG of the driver will shift and change the stresses on the mechanism. Could you not just have the main seat posts slide along the bottom main rail? Nothing fancy, just some holes for stepped positions or long slots where you could tighten the screws down when in position.

Which brings us to the seat. Obviously the seat is a huge cost. It does reduce the price of your rig quite a bit but your potential customers will compare your price point to other rigs that come with a seat. They will consider potential seat cost and seat shipping cost and add it to your price point. Your design, as great as it is, will appear much more expensive in relation. Now, it's my opinion that yours would still be well worth it because of the quality of your design, but many won't feel the same--and how would they know? They can't compare them side by side, ie, they can't actually sit in them and test. What is the solution? You have to take extra care to minimize your price, OR look into getting some of those sparco knock-off seats yourself from China. Better that you buy them for $50 and include than
your customers having to buy ONE for $200 and add it.

Your fight to get the price down will include every bolt and every square inch of material. Don't forget the simple concepts such as: if the steering wheel is at maximum height, and a small guy can still raise the seat until the steering wheel is in his lap, then the seat riser posts can be shorter. There are many of these types of checks to make to save on material.

Also, you have to maximize the size of your market. It seems, based on the modularity of your design, that you could easily make this a great flight sim set-up also. You could keep the base the exact same and add different parts as upgrades. Start posting in the flight sim sites (build your own cockpit sections, etc.).

And, please consider a keyboard tray and mouse tray. Again, based on your design, it would be simple to add them as a swiveling attachment on each side. They don't have to be part of the base design; they can be considered upgrades as well.

In fact, you should really offer the design in pieces so to speak. For the GT5 driver who wants to sit in front of his 60" LCD with is DFP, you can offer the basic frame with steering support and pedal support.

Then a person can buy as upgrades:

Platform for monitor, wing platforms for triple screen, shifter attachment for G25/27 (doubles as attachment for flight throttle), stick attachment for flight stick (steering wheel platform doubles as yoke platform), keyboard tray, and mouse tray, etc.

Now, on some things you will find that it is cheap enough to add as part of the base frame to make it more attractive, eg, maybe the monitor platfrom only adds $7 to the cost. You'll figure all that out.

Hope some of this will help keep you on your toes! Keep up the great work!