GTrr™

[Timppaq]

Timppaq,

I've been watching your threads for awhile and I think the engineering behind your design is just outstanding. I'm sure it's fun to work on but also agonizing to a certain extent to find that exact point of diminishing returns as it regards cost vs adjustability vs options.

The two holy grails of sim rigs (IMHO) are adjustability and stability, and I think you've nailed those down extremely well. Isn't it funny how the design progresses from complicated to simple, and not the other way around? LOL Why don't the simple designs occur to our brains first??

Thanks for the kind words We will find out soon how rigid it is, but I have high hopes. My current rig is very rigid, and that is far weaker in design. But what you described is extremely true, the complex designs comes always first!! That's why you need to be patient and give your brains a little time to figure things out.. 👍

Here are a couple of thoughts I have, assuming you are thinking about selling your design:

Be careful about having the tilt mechanism of the seat below the runners/sliders. The CG of the driver will shift and change the stresses on the mechanism. Could you not just have the main seat posts slide along the bottom main rail? Nothing fancy, just some holes for stepped positions or long slots where you could tighten the screws down when in position.

The extra holes are a good idea, and I will include that. (I kind of have had those already but at some stage they've dropped out) 👍 The stresses shouldn't be a problem... we have a saying in Finnish; "rauta ei valita" which means basically that the "the steel don't mind" ..as long it holds together all should be fine But anyway there's nothing to lose if I add a few holes, and that way you can at least adjust the "look" to be more neutral by getting the post more center to the seat. So consider it done 👍

Which brings us to the seat. Obviously the seat is a huge cost. It does reduce the price of your rig quite a bit but your potential customers will compare your price point to other rigs that come with a seat. They will consider potential seat cost and seat shipping cost and add it to your price point. Your design, as great as it is, will appear much more expensive in relation. Now, it's my opinion that yours would still be well worth it because of the quality of your design, but many won't feel the same--and how would they know? They can't compare them side by side, ie, they can't actually sit in them and test. What is the solution? You have to take extra care to minimize your price, OR look into getting some of those sparco knock-off seats yourself from China. Better that you buy them for $50 and include than
your customers having to buy ONE for $200 and add it.

The seat is a huge cost I agree.. And I would need to take that into consideration if I would be selling these. But I assume that for the potential customer ordering the perfect, preferred seat is not a burden but just the opposite - I've been really enjoying browsing different seats from various manufacturers and imaging how those would look in the rig. And I believe that would be the case with the potential customer too. I'm also pretty sure that this also hugely benefits the customer financially. Would create a lot of unecessary work & cost to include any seats. That would eventually destroy my plan to world domination

Your fight to get the price down will include every bolt and every square inch of material. Don't forget the simple concepts such as: if the steering wheel is at maximum height, and a small guy can still raise the seat until the steering wheel is in his lap, then the seat riser posts can be shorter. There are many of these types of checks to make to save on material.

This is true 👍 But I can assure you that after the proto is done & tested every inch of the rig will be needed there. But as a proto, there needs to be some extra lenghts just for testing and experimenting different things. All will be optimized in the end

Also, you have to maximize the size of your market. It seems, based on the modularity of your design, that you could easily make this a great flight sim set-up also. You could keep the base the exact same and add different parts as upgrades. Start posting in the flight sim sites (build your own cockpit sections, etc.).

👍 Good idea, and definetly will see into that.

And, please consider a keyboard tray and mouse tray. Again, based on your design, it would be simple to add them as a swiveling attachment on each side. They don't have to be part of the base design; they can be considered upgrades as well.

In fact, you should really offer the design in pieces so to speak. For the GT5 driver who wants to sit in front of his 60" LCD with is DFP, you can offer the basic frame with steering support and pedal support.

Then a person can buy as upgrades:

Platform for monitor, wing platforms for triple screen, shifter attachment for G25/27 (doubles as attachment for flight throttle), stick attachment for flight stick (steering wheel platform doubles as yoke platform), keyboard tray, and mouse tray, etc.

Now, on some things you will find that it is cheap enough to add as part of the base frame to make it more attractive, eg, maybe the monitor platfrom only adds $7 to the cost. You'll figure all that out.

The keyboard tray is a thing that I still have in mind, even though I once thought it could be better to buy one from some shop near you.. so I'll keep this in mind.

Hope some of this will help keep you on your toes! Keep up the great work!

Surely it does Thanks for the comments 👍

 

[Timppaq]

Possibilities?

What about the seat and runners on some form of cylinder like an office chair / hairdresser salons use? This would allow quick height adjustment and instant release.
Boxy monitor support to me is not needed. Could be replaced with a simple metal bracket/VESA mount possibly on your own designed support upright. Quicker and easier to adjust the monitor, looks better and reduces weight/materials?

Discard the extra length mentioned earlier but still allow the pedal option for inverted pedals. Just reduce the size a bit. Have perhaps a more rounded front and top, just a bit more style would be nice I think. Have a placement for the console(s) just above the pedals and close to the monitor upright. Allow the upright to house the cables. Increase the length of the legs at the back for added support.

Heres my MS Paint edit, fantastically artistic
Only as a idea to reducing the size and getting away from the box shape

In all seriousness I think when you have a project going through building phase and proper testing you soon see things that we want to change or improve. My plans have changed so many times its crazy. However I believe the changes has got me to a point Im happier with how the end result will be. Dont take my comments as major criticisims but what I put forward as ideas is as if I was in your position to consider mate. I fully expect you to treat my thread in the same manner and offer your opinion in that and challenge any design ideas I show. Mine indeed is very large but its based to what I want, again if what you want for yourself and what may be a great design for possibly selling to others can be vastly different.

Youve got a great basis in this but for me in the current build it wouldnt appeal to me in a great way to buy one over some options already available.
If you focus as much on resizing and style as youve done a great job in the positioning options then it could go from good to great.

Keep the comments coming 👍 Good to get opinions..

I'm working on another version that should cover most of the points you've referring to..

The cylinders you mentioned wouldn't allow your seat to be a few inches from the ground so not what I'm looking after (?). Might get a bit expensive too.. I think it's not unreasonable amount of work to adjust the seat height and only after that sit in it.

The size is actually close to minimum now (with this design), all possibilities covered. And again, this is a proto where I need to have extra space just in case. All will be optimized in the end. 👍

The design concept I'm using here is slightly restricted in terms of styling. But there are still things that can be done and I believe the other version I'm now doing is more "stylish", whatever that means in racing rigs..

 

[Mr Latte]

The RennSport is probably the best thing to copy in its size and positioning particulary how it also allows triple screens.
Id recommend that for influence you consider it and the "Nixim" below for sturdiness.

Many of the current frames on the market dont have the real stability yours would have.
Playseats still offers the best adjustability for the money. However from a sales position they fold up or reduce in size easily for a reason. Ive seen countless times someone commenting on a cockpit only to say "if only I had the room"

I feel either making it compact or multipurpose so it could also function as a typical PC desk area allowing for work or play at it.
I dont see one on the market that is sturdy and good for multipurpose. If the Rennsport had easier access, had more of a proper keyboard tray and could be used comfortably as a single or multimonitor desk enviroment then Id likely of bought one. It also suffered from rather poor mounting options for its monitors (Typhoons thread on gtf) however I think they have changed that since.

Noticed your design allows the seat to lower for F1 style but do people want or need a cockpit that does that? Also if the monitor cant come down level to maintain a level eye to the seating position when doing this then its only going to cause eventual neck strain.

Comfort / Convenience
Then will people want to lower the seat, lower a monitor, reposition the pedals to play an F1 game. Oh and an hour later if they want to play GT5, do they reposition seat, pedals, monitor again?

Maybe Im wrong and everyone would love to do that but get peoples feedback.

If it helps the Gamepod Cockpit is approx
1200mm x 450mm but when the seat extends back on the runner is 1400mm long
Gameracer and Gamepod are two examples of applying additional extras.

 

[Timppaq]

The RennSport is probably the best thing to copy in its size and positioning particulary how it also allows triple screens.
Id recommend that for influence you consider it and the "Nixim" below for sturdiness.

Many of the current frames on the market dont have the real stability yours would have.
Playseats still offers the best adjustability for the money. However from a sales position they fold up or reduce in size easily for a reason. Ive seen countless times someone commenting on a cockpit only to say "if only I had the room"

I feel either making it compact or multipurpose so it could also function as a typical PC desk area allowing for work or play at it.
I dont see one on the market that is sturdy and good for multipurpose. If the Rennsport had easier access, had more of a proper keyboard tray and could be used comfortably as a single or multimonitor desk enviroment then Id likely of bought one. It also suffered from rather poor mounting options for its monitors (Typhoons thread on gtf) however I think they have changed that since.

Noticed your design allows the seat to lower for F1 style but do people want or need a cockpit that does that? Also if the monitor cant come down level to maintain a level eye to the seating position when doing this then its only going to cause eventual neck strain.

Comfort / Convenience
Then will people want to lower the seat, lower a monitor, reposition the pedals to play an F1 game. Oh and an hour later if they want to play GT5, do they reposition seat, pedals, monitor again?

Maybe Im wrong and everyone would love to do that but get peoples feedback.

If it helps the Gamepod Cockpit is approx
1200mm x 450mm but when the seat extends back on the runner is 1400mm long
Gameracer and Gamepod are two examples of applying additional extras.

Maybe you're thinking too much of the mass market stuff.. There are very good reasons why the commercial cockpits are the way they are (and they're mostly very nice), but my goal is to fill my needs. I really can't find one from the market, not with big money - not with little money. It's really simple;

- Adjustability
- Stability

As I said in the beginning, this is to cater my needs ( ) and everything else is a bonus. So, basically I'm doing the kind of rig that I'd want to have. I know I'm not far off if I manage to do that.

This rig is meant for a person that devotes a lot of time for the hobby and is willing to get a proper seat to enjoy the experience. In my mind making the racing cockpit work as a general work desk / make it easily hideable doesn't fit the picture. There are great stuff already for the people who wants to hide the rig after playing. I would never manage to do that.. I'm too lazy for all that hazzle every time I want to play. I prefer to have everything ready and just put the ps3 on and start driving.

Some people like to drive F1 style (very low) and some people prefer more upright position. I can't see the harm having the possibility to do both. Otherwise you'd have to build a new rig if you like to change the driving position.. I'd prefer to use just one, and I really really want to be able to do that.. (F1 <--> school bus)

 

[Mr Latte]

Yeah your right im looking at this too much as a cockpit to sell guess Im getting confused again.

I did say right enough that its going to be really good for your own needs but their is a big difference in what your particular needs are to a cockpit/design that would sell really well and meet the general requirements of the public. Just assumed this prototype was trying to achieve both your needs and be sold with talk of manufacturing.

If not of course their are no problems building it as big and boxy as you like, I guess.

 

[Timppaq]

If not of course their are no problems building it as big and boxy as you like, I guess.

Don't worry.. I've been the whole day on this and I can now assure you that the final version will not be boxy at all Don't know about the general requirements.. but no boxy I promise (and smaller too )

But thanks again for making me thinking it through once again. 👍 I believe this was now 5th time I thought I had the model for proto done, but it proved to be wrong. But now I'm REALLY happy with the design.

Will post pics of the built proto when done

 

[Mr Latte]

Well Im glad your not getting sick of my thoughts....
Dont want you taking it the wrong way.

If anything I know exactly what your going through regards making changes.

Have a look here for more seat ideas.
Some cheap but nice looking.

 

[Timppaq]

Thanks for the link 👍

edit,

got the new version done and wow, these pics looks quite wrong to me now...

 

[Mr Latte]

Well whenever your ready.....

 

[Timppaq]

Will post real pics when I get the proto finished 👍

In the meanwhile I calculated the total weight again (with the new version) and it stands now at 16,6kg. The bolts & nuts are not included in this figure yet.


edit,

14,7kg

edit 2,

9,7kg

 

[Timppaq]

G25 templates added to OP, found them very useful and thought it would be a good idea to have them included. (the rig will have pre drilled holes for mounting of course)

edit,

Final weights:

- with 1-screen stand: 9,52kg
- without screen stand: 8,57kg
(not including the bolts etc. in the figures)

 

[Timppaq]

Sorry double post,

but FINALLY I'm doing the proto (can you imagine!!)... wanted to celebrate it with a new post.



..so one preview pic:

CLICKS



Next pics will be real ones with a SLR

 

[Raitziger]

I placed today an order for this seat for my new cockpit:

199&#8364; with runners.

 

[zed300]

That's some diet. 👍
What is the panel material, I assume it's the same as the rest ....aluminium?
The thickness or lack of, obviously gets the weight down but that also reduces rigidity.
Maybe a back brace is required... ??
It could be done in aluminium flat strips it would only add a few hundred grams.

 

[Timppaq]

I know what you mean 👍

The panel material is plywood (all the "black" vinyls are plywood btw), but they only carry the longitudinal loads, so the thickness doesn't really matter.. the cross directional rigidity is obtained by stainless steel parts that you can't actually see in the pic. I understand the pic might be a little misleading, but the force needed to bend the rig sideways is equivalent to bending 8mm of stainless steel block... (4x2mm) so it should be covered.

But I am really happy with the total weight actually.. Never though I'd crack the 10kg barrier (for sure there is bound to be little changes after the proto)

.
.
.
Nice seat Raitzi 👍

 

[01GTP]

Next pics will be real ones with a SLR

Looking forward to them, Timo. 👍

 

[Timppaq]

*****

I placed today an order for this seat for my new cockpit:

199&#8364; with runners.

Can you post the runners' mounting dimesions when you get it? 👍

 

[Raitziger]

Can you post the runners' mounting dimesions when you get it? 👍

 

[Timppaq]

Nice, thanks 👍

Suprisingly less in longitudinal direction than in the seat from which I took the dimensions for the plans. But should be ok..

 

[Timppaq]

Getting closer...


...will order the parts this week. Can't wait to test it out. As I said, the proto will be quite experimental regarding the material strenghts. If it turns out that thicker plywoods etc. are needed, changes should be quite easy to do.

Click for bigger version..









The weight for this latest edition is 9,44kg (without bolts & nuts)

 

[zed300]

The more times I see this rig, the more I like it. Can't wait to see the real deal. 👍

 

[No46_TheDoctor]

Timppaq, I've been watching this thing evolve and I have noticed a major problem you ar going to run into.

You don't have any coss braces, what I mean is you won't have anythingto stop side to side movement of the wheel and monitor platforms, I know this from previous builds I have done.

Imagine a cardboard box with the two ends removed, it has nothing to stop it collapsing, I know thats an extreme analogy but the principal is the same.

Could be relatively difficult to gain more lateral stability in your design, given the complex shapes of the main components.

Just something to think about.

 

[Timppaq]

I think you missed the steel reinforcements? I think those will cover this issue.. Let me get a clearer pic for you.. 👍

http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/kk341/Timppaq/GTrr - previews/ScreenHunter_12May031242.jpg

http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/kk341/Timppaq/GTrr - previews/ScreenHunter_13May031243.jpg

All those parts create a rather strong "circle" structure to resist sideways movements. Or that's the way I see it at this point.. we'll see how it ends up.

 

[Mr Latte]

Have to say I think thats much better design and a big improvement.

Agree with DOC you may need more rigidness for the upright column where the wheel is.
If it had a cross section like the bottom it would sort it.

Perhaps also consider to have a level foot platform. Going from the edge of the pedals to just below the wheel. This would give a user more comfort than the bottom cross-section getting in the way of their feet. Not at all times do we sit with our feet on the pedals.

The only other area I see as concern may be the G25 gear mount which might have some movement with so much leverage to its actual mounting point. A vertical mount from the main frame and able to adjust forward/back then tighten in the required position I think would be sturdier.

Edit
Alternatively why not have the G25 Gear mounted from the seat section. Playseats/VR3 and other frames do this and it will always then move with the seat location.

 

[Timppaq]

Have to say I think thats much better design and a big improvement.

Agree with DOC you may need more rigidness for the upright column where the wheel is.
If it had a cross section like the bottom it would sort it.

Perhaps also consider to have a level foot platform. Going from the edge of the pedals to just below the wheel. This would give a user more comfort than the bottom cross-section getting in the way of their feet. Not at all times do we sit with our feet on the pedals.

The only other area I see as concern may be the G25 gear mount which might have some movement with so much leverage to its actual mounting point. A vertical mount from the main frame and able to adjust forward/back then tighten in the required position I think would be sturdier.

Thanks 👍

These are just the basic parts that the rig needs to function.. I might add something similar as you described for the feet area at later stage.

I believe at this point that the shifter mount should be plenty enough rigid for any use, but again, we'll see how it ends up.

http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/kk341/Timppaq/GTrr - previews/ScreenHunter_14May031251.jpg

edit,

Alternatively why not have the G25 Gear mounted from the seat section. Playseats/VR3 and other frames do this and it will always then move with the seat location.

It was mounted there in the earlier version, but after it was too complicated (with all the adjustments it had) and added too much weight, I changed it to be this way. The adjustments are still there and the look is much nicer, I think. So basically weight save & tidy look made me do this decision.

edit2,

if it the rig isn't sturdy enough sideways, there is always the possibility to add the cross bar to the upper part like it is now in the lower part. I really would like to avoid this though to save leg room & a few parts.

 

[No46_TheDoctor]

One thing I noticed today.. it would be really simple to make additional parts to make the cockpit fully enclosed Not sure if anybody would be mad enough to do it but maybe some day I'll try just for the fun of it.

I did that to my rig once, just a quick makeshift enclosure, It didn't really add much to the experience to be honest, and it made me feel rather self conscious !

Maybe with screens for side windows and a proper frame it might make a difference, but from all the multi-monitor setups I've seen so far the side monitors don't really seem to be showing the view from the side windows, they just give a wider front view.

If you don't mind me asking, where are you getting these components manufactured?

 

[Timppaq]

Yeah, that might have to be passed .. but who knows in the end

I'll get the part manufactured with a local supplier. There is possibility that also the plywoods will be lasercut (stainless steel plates will be). But more chance that those will be CNC machined. Also, might get them painted at the factory too, for my convenience.


edit,

3-screen setup that I will do for myself;
(the inside slider bar still missing from there..)

 

[Mr Latte]

Excellent !!!

Your pretty much at a stage of going for building then but you may as well do that to test things and then only from that can you really discover possible elements to improve.

Dont forget to consider adjustable feet thats one drawback of Platseats with slightly uneven floors.

 

[Timppaq]

I will see into that for sure 👍

oh, this is how it'll look without the screen stand, as it's clear that it's not always needed..

 

[nicka117]

Well, it's getting more efficient everyday with its design which I love. It was definitely a better solution to mount the G25 shifter attachment to the main frame--much less complicated, more room for height adjustment and less material.

I know this will all be attended to when you actually build and test but watch out for the main bottom crossmember when you have a very tall and upright seating position (which most guys will prefer). It will be difficult to get the pedals close enough without them running into the crossmember. Especially for someone with short legs. Trust me on this one.

Otherwise, you are making fabulous progress. It really looks trick and high-tech now.