Guns

[Danoff]

Although horrible, terrorist attacks have a total different motivation and cause as mass school shootings. But back to the topic I am concentrating is that the US has massive disappropiate number of school shootings then anywhere in the world or combined. What is the cause in your opinion?

I dunno... I'm flabbergasted as to why you're not going on and on about airline pilot screening.

 

[PocketZeven]

I dunno... I'm flabbergasted as to why you're not going on and on about airline pilot screening.

It depends if a certain country has disproportionate of plane Hijacking. Im more worried about planes (MH17, with 398 people on board) being shot by russians out of the air, without accountability.

 

[Danoff]

It depends if a certain country has disproportionate of plane Hijacking. Im more worried about planes (MH17, with 398 people on board) being shot by russians out of the air, without accountability.

I don't think most of those were Hijacked. But you should be thinking worldwide rampage killing such as via downed aircraft. Sure maybe one nation doesn't dominate in that particular feature, but a single event is more impactful than an entire year of your primary concern in the US. So while we pioneer mass shootings, a single downed aircraft can put any country ahead of us in mass killing overall. That should elevate it to the top of your list...

That is, if your concern is actually for killing and not just a desire to see the 2nd amendment smeared. If your concern is actually for school killings, you should be interested in (instead of dismissive of) security measures.

 

[PocketZeven]

I don't think most of those were Hijacked. But you should be thinking worldwide rampage killing such as via downed aircraft. Sure maybe one nation doesn't dominate in that particular feature, but a single event is more impactful than an entire year of your primary concern in the US. So while we pioneer mass shootings, a single downed aircraft can put any country ahead of us in mass killing overall. That should elevate it to the top of your list...

That is, if your concern is actually for killing and not just a desire to see the 2nd amendment smeared. If your concern is actually for school killings, you should be interested in (instead of dismissive of) security measures.

Ofcourse I would like to have world peace and no crime, but I started this conversation in a thread about a recent mass shooting and ended up here.
Rest assured, my concern is not for the 2nd amendment to be smeared. If there were no disproportionate mass (school) shootings in the USA I wouldnt have been vocal about this subject.

 

[Northstar]

But back to the topic I am concentrating is that the US has massive disappropiate number of school shootings then anywhere in the world or combined. What is the cause in your opinion?

Poor mental health care, glamorizing the shooter, a society that is nowhere near as accepting as they like to think.

It really isn't that difficult. Just look at how we dehumanize each other simply because heaven forbid someone has a different viewpoint. It's only natural that some people will snap under the pressure.

If people really want to see change, they will look in the mirror. But that will never happen because than we will see how ugly we really are.

 

[Michael88]

Poor mental health care, glamorizing the shooter, a society that is nowhere near as accepting as they like to think.

It really isn't that difficult. Just look at how we dehumanize each other simply because heaven forbid someone has a different viewpoint. It's only natural that some people will snap under the pressure.

If people really want to see change, they will look in the mirror. But that will never happen because than we will see how ugly we really are.

Also changing your own world views, opinions and political understanding is a very difficult, uncomfortable process with a slight hint of personal defeat and ego damage. The masses don't like uncomfortable, difficult nor getting their ego dented, they want to turn on the TV, get their opinion spoon-fed by the media and call it a day.
People getting more and more lazy doesn't just stop at using the escalator instead of the stairs.

 

[LeMansAid]

I was specifically about Mass shootings. They are almost all white and male.

Let's say you're correct. Are you somehow under the impression that being able to identify an archetype for mass shooters should therefore place more focus on the weapon? I would have thought it would only strengthen the argument that it's a human problem. That there's a certain type of human.

 

[Dennisch]

All the rules and regulations, and we had a school shooting this morning. A 16 year old was caught, no one injured.

 

[Michael88]

All the rules and regulations, and we had a school shooting this morning. A 16 year old was caught, no one injured.

Weird, haven't read anything about it in the news. What were the exact circumstances of this shooting?

 

[Dennisch]

Weird, haven't read anything about it in the news. What were the exact circumstances of this shooting?

Kid went to school with a gun and an axe, and a bag of various other weapons, apparently shot a couple of rounds in the ceiling, and the teachers talked to him until the cops showed up.

 

[PocketZeven]

Poor mental health care, glamorizing the shooter, a society that is nowhere near as accepting as they like to think.

It really isn't that difficult. Just look at how we dehumanize each other simply because heaven forbid someone has a different viewpoint. It's only natural that some people will snap under the pressure.

If people really want to see change, they will look in the mirror. But that will never happen because than we will see how ugly we really are.

My whole point was that when that person snaps it would be better that the person has less or no acces to guns. Assuming that this hypothetical person has no prior violations, mental health issues and has legally acces to guns.

Kid went to school with a gun and an axe, and a bag of various other weapons, apparently shot a couple of rounds in the ceiling, and the teachers talked to him until the cops showed up.

The situation was de-escaleted by unarmed teachers. Thankfully no casualties. I still think the idea that the only solution to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun is insane.

 

[Dennisch]

The situation was de-escaleted by unarmed teachers. Thankfully no casualties. I still think the idea that the only solution to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun is insane.

A cry for help is different from trying to go out with a bang. Otherwise there would have been wounded people, instead of holes in the ceiling.

 

[PocketZeven]

A cry for help is different from trying to go out with a bang. Otherwise there would have been wounded people, instead of holes in the ceiling.

I understand that, but in this case its hard to go into hypotheticals. I mean how did he manage to obtain a gun? Did he have prior mental health issues? Kudos to the dutch police for managing to arrest him without escalating the situation.

But do you personally want metal detectors and armed guards in our schools?

 

[Dennisch]

I understand that, but in this case its hard to go into hypotheticals. I mean how did he manage to obtain a gun? Did he have prior mental health issues?
But do you personally want metal detectors and armed guards in our schools?

It's a school for difficult learners/harder to handle kids etc. He had an argument with another kid, and he had some weapons. That's all we know. Let's not speculate as that's pointless.

 

[Johnnypenso]

My whole point was that when that person snaps it would be better that the person has less or no acces to guns. Assuming that this hypothetical person has no prior violations, mental health issues and has legally acces to guns.

The situation was de-escaleted by unarmed teachers. Thankfully no casualties. I still think the idea that the only solution to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun is insane.

Perhaps in the future, when people are shooting up American schools, they should just try to talk them down rather than taking them out with another weapon?

 

[PocketZeven]

Let's say you're correct. Are you somehow under the impression that being able to identify an archetype for mass shooters should therefore place more focus on the weapon? I would have thought it would only strengthen the argument that it's a human problem. That there's a certain type of human.

It depends though. The largest group of gunowners also happen to be white and male. So there is no deproportionate difference there.
https://qz.com/1215905/gun-ownership-in-the-us-by-race-and-gender/

Perhaps in the future, when people are shooting up American schools, they should just try to talk them down rather than taking them out with another weapon?

You are actually making a good point. In this case there were no casualties.

edit: added response to @LeMansAid

 

[Danoff]

You are actually making a good point. In this case there were no casualties.

...and you figure this would have worked at say... Columbine then?

 

[Michael88]

I still think the idea that the only solution to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun is insane.

So you want police officers who get called to stop drugged up crazies wilding guns and knives from killing people show up unarmed?

Excellent idea. I want you to be one of those cops, I'll pass.

 

[PocketZeven]

...and you figure this would have worked at say... Columbine then?

Dont know if someone could have talked them out of it. But it would have been much better if the kids from Columbine had no acces to guns (or the person who purchased them for them).

So you want police officers who get called to stop drugged up crazies wilding guns and knives from killing people show up unarmed?

Excellent idea. I want you to be one of those cops, I'll pass.

Where did that come from? I was referencing to a popular NRA quote.
I am not referencing law enforcement. Sorry for not making that clear.

To put in context:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/breaking-nra-backed-theory-good-guy-gun-stops/story?id=53360480

 

[Danoff]

Dont know if someone could have talked them out of it.

Nope!

But it would have been much better if the kids from Columbine had no acces to guns (or the person who purchased them for them).

Oh I agree. If only it were that simple.

 

[PocketZeven]

Nope!



Oh I agree. If only it were that simple.

Cant know for sure. The kids were outsiders. There might have been someone who could have talked them out of it, before they started on their rampage.

Regarding Columbine I recommend watching "Bowling for Columbine".

 

[Danoff]

Regarding Columbine I recommend watching "Bowling for Columbine".

Regarding Columbine I recommend watching the actual footage of the event.

 

[Northstar]

My whole point was that when that person snaps it would be better that the person has less or no acces to guns. Assuming that this hypothetical person has no prior violations, mental health issues and has legally acces to guns.

Why not try improving the other things so the person just never snaps to begin with?

If you do that guns really won’t be an issue.

 

[Michael88]

Why not try improving the other things so the person just never snaps to begin with?

If you do that guns really won’t be an issue.

Or any other of the millions of possibly dangerous objects - and rights- a nut job can use to cause harm .

 

[PocketZeven]

Regarding Columbine I recommend watching the actual footage of the event.

I did see some security camera footage at the time. Have you watched Bowling for Columbine though? Even if you disagree with Moore's views it is a good watch.

Why not try improving the other things so the person just never snaps to begin with?

If you do that guns really won’t be an issue.

That sounds like a good idea. How would you propose to do that?

 

[Northstar]

That sounds like a good idea. How would you propose to do that?

Treating each other like fellow humans instead of just tearing everybody else down would be a good start.

Follow that by making mental health care more accessible along with removing the stigma that surrounds it is also crucial.

Of course this problem has far greater consequences than the mass shootings people love to focus on. As bad as those are gang violence and suicide rates should be considerably bigger issues than they are.

 

[PocketZeven]

Treating each other like fellow humans instead of just tearing everybody else down would be a good start.

Follow that by making mental health care more accessible along with removing the stigma that surrounds it is also crucial.

Of course this problem has far greater consequences than the mass shootings people love to focus on. As bad as those are gang violence and suicide rates should be considerably bigger issues than they are.

The problem in the usa hoever is that mental healthcare can become quite expensive.

 

[Northstar]

The problem in the usa hoever is that mental healthcare can become quite expensive.

Hence the “make it more accessible” bit.

 

[PocketZeven]

Hence the “make it more accessible” bit.

Universal healthcare?

 

[Northstar]

Universal healthcare?

If set up properly, sure.