Guns

  • Thread starter Talentless
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Which position on firearms is closest to your own?

  • I support complete illegality of civilian ownership

    Votes: 116 15.2%
  • I support strict control.

    Votes: 241 31.5%
  • I support moderate control.

    Votes: 162 21.2%
  • I support loose control.

    Votes: 80 10.5%
  • I oppose control.

    Votes: 139 18.2%
  • I am undecided.

    Votes: 27 3.5%

  • Total voters
    765
In the meantime ... a father buys a handgun in a "Black Friday" sale. Four days later his teenage son takes that gun to school & shoots 11 people, killing 3 of them.


Obviously very illegal. I'm not well versed on how the law treats 15-year-olds in this circumstance, but I hope that they throw the book at not just the kid, but also at any negligence or even conspiracy with the parents.
 
Obviously very illegal. I'm not well versed on how the law treats 15-year-olds in this circumstance, but I hope that they throw the book at not just the kid, but also at any negligence or even conspiracy with the parents.
In the state of Michigan, he will likely be tried as an adult and the father will be charged with a few different felonies. In Michigan, you can't possess a handgun (under 26") under the age of 21 except in some cases where it's 18. Either way, a 15-year-old can't possess a handgun and can only use one under direct adult supervision in certain places like a gun range. I don't know exactly what the penalty is for purchasing a firearm for someone who buys a gun for a minor, but from a quick search, it looks like 5-years and $5,000 in fines. However, it sure seems like the father is an accomplice in this and will likely be hit with more charges. I hope the book is thrown at both of them and the kid gets hit with first-degree murder charges for every student he murdered.

Although Michigan has precedents of letting juvenile murders get away with minimal time served.
 
Training requires ammunition which is expensive, especially nowadays, and lessons would be expensive and time consuming too. So you would basically prevent hard working people with minimum wages - or families with kids that don't have lots of spare money and time- their right to defend themselves properly. That cannot be the the right approach, can it?
I would suggest that if you can't do something safely then you probably should be consider not doing it at all. A firearm in the hands of someone with no training or experience feels pretty unsafe to everyone involved. Perhaps a poor family would be better served spending $500 on some baseball bats and locks instead of a gun that they can't afford to learn to use and maintain. Or simply using that money to try and better their means and using other methods to avoid conflict.

I know that doesn't feel like the answer you want. But when you're poor sometimes you have to try and make the best choice in a bad situation, and it's rarely the one that is sexy or cool. If you're poor enough that you're deciding between a box of ammunition or food then your right to anything doesn't much come into it.
 

13-year-old accused of killing sister was making guns at home, Douglas County sheriff says​

https://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-1...home-sheriff-says/LSXFTOQVBBA4JEGPCUQI5RNKYY/ 😢
"He ordered everything he needed online to make guns, including semi-automatic weapons."

Sorry, my poor Aussie brain doesn't get it. It reads like he ordered everything he needed to make guns online, including guns. Like, if you're 13 and buying guns online isn't that the actual problem, not that he was "making" them at home, whatever that means?
 
Sorry, my poor Aussie brain doesn't get it. It reads like he ordered everything he needed to make guns online, including guns.
It's worded a bit weirdly. I'm pretty sure they're saying that he had the capability to make semi-auto weapons.

That said, I still don't understand how he actually managed that, or how somehow no one else in his family noticed what he was doing?
 
Christmas tweet by Kentucky Republican Representative Thomas Massie:


Screen Shot 2021-12-05 at 11.52.04 PM.jpg
 
A prime example of why I hate gun culture in this country, particularly living in the south.

Also, super tone-deaf after the shooting in Michigan last week.
Not to worry. Theres no such thing as a "gun culture" ... it's a "violence culture".


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Christmas tweet by Kentucky Republican Representative Thomas Massie:


View attachment 1098043
If someone on this website can explain a healthy mental state that is not at least somehow rooted in dehumanization, fear, and some level of affinity for violence that still results in this Christmas photo, let me know.

I own a few handguns and a couple of collectible long guns, but I can't imagine posing in front of Christmas tree with them. It says something... I'm not sure exactly what... like... this is what joy and togetherness looks like... it integrates the concept of shooting people*.

*I'm not sure if any of those guns is really appropriate for hunting anything. It doesn't look like it.
 
Nobody: "Sure, someone took my life, but at least they didn't use a gun."
Very true. In fact, I imagine the family of those who were shot & killed at Oxford High School, or Columbine, or Sandy Hook, or Virginia Tech, or Las Vegas, or Stoneham Douglas, or the Aurora theatre, or Boulder, or Thousand Oaks, or Binghampton ... hell all the way back to 1966 & the University of Texas tower shootings ... they all tell themselves: well it's too bad, but if they hadn't been shot to death, they would probably just have been murdered in some other way.
 
Very true. In fact, I imagine the family of those who were shot & killed at Oxford High School, or Columbine, or Sandy Hook, or Virginia Tech, or Las Vegas, or Stoneham Douglas, or the Aurora theatre, or Boulder, or Thousand Oaks, or Binghampton ... hell all the way back to 1966 & the University of Texas tower shootings ... they all tell themselves: well it's too bad, but if they hadn't been shot to death, they would probably just have been murdered in some other way.
It looks like you're misrepresenting what I said. If you've done this deliberately, it's deceitful.

If you've simply misinterpreted what I said, I'll state it more plainly: People who were killed by not guns are no less dead than those killed by guns.
 
It looks like you're misrepresenting what I said. If you've done this deliberately, it's deceitful.

If you've simply misinterpreted what I said, I'll state it more plainly: People who were killed by not guns are no less dead than those killed by guns.
Well sure - that's self-evident. Perhaps you can explain what was the point of your very cryptic comment?

Danoff is suggesting that the US is just way more violent than other countries. It may be somewhat more violent than comparable developed countries, but where it's a real outlier is in terms of gun violence, which boosts its homicide rate way higher.

If someone on this website can explain a healthy mental state that is not at least somehow rooted in dehumanization, fear, and some level of affinity for violence that still results in this Christmas photo, let me know.

I own a few handguns and a couple of collectible long guns, but I can't imagine posing in front of Christmas tree with them. It says something... I'm not sure exactly what... like... this is what joy and togetherness looks like... it integrates the concept of shooting people*.

*I'm not sure if any of those guns is really appropriate for hunting anything. It doesn't look like it.
That's the whole point: this politician posts a photo that celebrates, in the most extreme way imaginable, gun ownership. To people outside the US it looks like something verging on mental illness ... but within the US it is actually appealing to this Republican congressman's "base". That's why he - & many other Republicans (& even a few Democrats) have posted similar things. It's not a "violence" thing - you won't see Republican's posing with knives or baseball bats - it's a "gun" thing.
 
Well sure - that's self-evident. Perhaps you can explain what was the point of your very cryptic comment?

Danoff is suggesting that the US is just way more violent than other countries. It may be somewhat more violent than comparable developed countries, but where it's a real outlier is in terms of gun violence, which boosts its homicide rate way higher.
The blue people in the graphic you provided were killed by guns. The grey people in the graphic you provided were killed by not guns. They're all still ****ing dead, no matter how many people you want me to know mourn them.

I have an issue with gun violence in this country, particularly because of how effectively firearms can be utilized to kill a number of people in a short period of time and in a wide variety of environments--something that can't be said of knives and motor vehicles--but you've chosen to offer a ****ing stupid metric in opposition to the availability of firearms for use in violent crime.
 
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Danoff is suggesting that the US is just way more violent than other countries. It may be somewhat more violent than comparable developed countries, but where it's a real outlier is in terms of gun violence, which boosts its homicide rate way higher.

Guns are appealing for committing violence.

That's the whole point: this politician posts a photo that celebrates, in the most extreme way imaginable, gun ownership. To people outside the US it looks like something verging on mental illness ... but within the US it is actually appealing to this Republican congressman's "base". That's why he - & many other Republicans (& even a few Democrats) have posted similar things. It's not a "violence" thing - you won't see Republican's posing with knives or baseball bats - it's a "gun" thing.

It's a glorified action hero movie fantasy-land thing where people pretend to be heroes, or ready-to-be heroes modeled after the imagery that they see. But the whole thing is predicated on accepting and even supporting violence. It's the same thing as spanking children, or storming the capitol. It's the same underlying process behind sexism and racism - tribalism. Us vs. Them. It's all deeply connected. I would even say (and I know this is your favorite) it's tied to exceptionalism.

You don't have that arsenal and show it off without at least some concept of being in some kind of violent conflict with society in general - without seeing the people around you as threats, and seeing your inner circle as people who are worthy of being humans (or super humans). It's the same tribalism that underpins racism, and to a lesser extent sexism. It's the same "violence is the answer" concept behind spanking children.

Anyway, I think you're focused on the symptom.
 
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****ing stupid metric in opposition to the availability of firearms for use in violent crime.
It's ONE metric out of many that indicates the role the presence of firearms play in the higher homicide rate in the US. Do I really have to again post ALL the relevant metrics?


Anyway, I think you're focused on the symptom.
I think you ... & apparently Tex ... are in denial of the glaringly obvious. How, or whether it's even possible, to lessen the rate of gun homicide in the US, is a different issue. The evidence is pretty obvious that when you have high gun ownership & the normalization of gun ownership in a society there are consequences. Nobody from the idiot Massie family may actually go out & kill anyone with their arsenal of firearms, but there's no doubt that people will be influenced by that picture, some of whom may turn out to be inspired to use their guns to kill someone.
 
It's ONE metric out of many that indicates the role the presence of firearms play in the higher homicide rate in the US. Do I really have to again post ALL the relevant metrics?
The existence of other metrics doesn't make that one less stupid. I was arguing against that one specifically because of how stupid it is. Saying that other metrics exist without arguing in support of that metric is deflection.

The United States has a higher homicide rate (this is bad) and all implements used in homicides contribute to that higher rate. It's unfortunate but it's also incredibly simple.
 
How, or whether it's even possible, to lessen the rate of gun homicide in the US, is a different issue.
Focusing on mental healthcare and not stigmatizing things like therapy would go a long way toward curtailing gun violence since most gun-related deaths are from suicide. While regular healthcare in the US is good, mental healthcare is atrociously bad. Even when you have appropriate access to mental healthcare, the solution is pills instead of actually taking steps to correct the issue in the long term. Don't get me wrong, pills work wonders and should be part of someone's treatment plan, but just relying on pills is a recipe for disaster.

Another thing that would help greatly is ending the war on drugs. There's a ton of gun-related violence that relates to drugs. Whether it's people committing armed robbery, drug deals gone bad, gang control of a given area, or whatever else by getting rid of the war on drugs it would have a positive effect on curtailing gun violence. It would also have the positive effect of allowing people in poor, inner-city areas where drug convictions are often higher a better chance at not having their life screwed up. We know minorities are often targeted and even prosecuted with a heavier hand than whites when it comes to drug charges. One drug charge when someone is 17 could be the difference between them getting an actual good-paying job or having to continue in the cycle that they're in. Employers in the US do not look favorably at people with records.

There needs to be more responsibility when it comes to guns as well. The prosecutor in Michigan is doing the right thing by charging the parents of the Oxford shooter. If you're a gun owner, you have a responsibility to keep your firearm secure at all times. Gun safes are cheap and trigger locks can often be sourced from your local police station free of charge.

Finally, the US Customs needs to do a better job rooting out illegal guns. How they do this, I'm not sure, but I have to assume if it's under the guise of "homeland security" they can pretty much get a blank check to figure it out.

While all of this won't stop gun violence, it will certainly move the needle in the right direction.
 
The existence of other metrics doesn't make that one less stupid. I was arguing against that one specifically because of how stupid it is. Saying that other metrics exist without arguing in support of that metric is deflection.

The United States has a higher homicide rate (this is bad) and all implements used in homicides contribute to that higher rate. It's unfortunate but it's also incredibly simple.
It's not stupid at all & it's not simple. It's one part of a fairly complex confluence of metrics that need to be considered as a whole. The rate of homicides including all implements in the US is higher, but it is much, much higher when you include firearm homicides. It's unlikely that any of the list of mass shootings I included (a very partial list), would have occurred without guns. Your abusive response suggests that you are not interested in considering than & are driven by emotion rather than reason on this topic.
 
Another thing that would help greatly is ending the war on drugs. There's a ton of gun-related violence that relates to drugs. Whether it's people committing armed robbery, drug deals gone bad, gang control of a given area, or whatever else by getting rid of the war on drugs it would have a positive effect on curtailing gun violence. It would also have the positive effect of allowing people in poor, inner-city areas where drug convictions are often higher a better chance at not having their life screwed up. We know minorities are often targeted and even prosecuted with a heavier hand than whites when it comes to drug charges. One drug charge when someone is 17 could be the difference between them getting an actual good-paying job or having to continue in the cycle that they're in. Employers in the US do not look favorably at people with records.
The war on drugs is spectacularly stupid. I think a lot of hard-line differences (guns, law enforcemet, incarceration) would relax considerably if it's abandoned.
 
driven by emotion
I imagine the family of those who were shot & killed at Oxford High School, or Columbine, or Sandy Hook, or Virginia Tech, or Las Vegas, or Stoneham Douglas, or the Aurora theatre, or Boulder, or Thousand Oaks, or Binghampton ... hell all the way back to 1966 & the University of Texas tower shootings ... they all tell themselves: well it's too bad, but if they hadn't been shot to death, they would probably just have been murdered in some other way.
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Christmas tweet by Kentucky Republican Representative Thomas Massie:


View attachment 1098043

Completely tone-deaf to recent events in the country? Check.
Making your family take a stupid picture to promote your political agendas? Check.
Trying to show off your guns (and really cheesy macho man stuff while we're at it) like some jackass? Check.
Tasteless display of wealth? Check.

Thanks, I hate it.
 
Completely tone-deaf to recent events in the country? Check.
Making your family take a stupid picture to promote your political agendas? Check.
Trying to show off your guns (and really cheesy macho man stuff while we're at it) like some jackass? Check.
Tasteless display of wealth? Check.

Thanks, I hate it.
If it's any consolation, there's a picture circulating with large dildos photoshopped in place of those guns.
 
driven by emotion
The anguish felt by parents whose children are killed in a senseless school shooting - that's understandable, rooted in the most fundamental of human emotions. The anger felt by gun nuts convinced that the guvment is coming to take their guns ... that's just a product of so much delusional BS. Where your anger comes from that seems to make you think you are entitled to dismiss, out of hand, statistics as "****ing stupid", only you can answer.

Focusing on mental healthcare and not stigmatizing things like therapy would go a long way toward curtailing gun violence since most gun-related deaths are from suicide. While regular healthcare in the US is good, mental healthcare is atrociously bad. Even when you have appropriate access to mental healthcare, the solution is pills instead of actually taking steps to correct the issue in the long term. Don't get me wrong, pills work wonders and should be part of someone's treatment plan, but just relying on pills is a recipe for disaster.

Another thing that would help greatly is ending the war on drugs. There's a ton of gun-related violence that relates to drugs. Whether it's people committing armed robbery, drug deals gone bad, gang control of a given area, or whatever else by getting rid of the war on drugs it would have a positive effect on curtailing gun violence. It would also have the positive effect of allowing people in poor, inner-city areas where drug convictions are often higher a better chance at not having their life screwed up. We know minorities are often targeted and even prosecuted with a heavier hand than whites when it comes to drug charges. One drug charge when someone is 17 could be the difference between them getting an actual good-paying job or having to continue in the cycle that they're in. Employers in the US do not look favorably at people with records.

There needs to be more responsibility when it comes to guns as well. The prosecutor in Michigan is doing the right thing by charging the parents of the Oxford shooter. If you're a gun owner, you have a responsibility to keep your firearm secure at all times. Gun safes are cheap and trigger locks can often be sourced from your local police station free of charge.

Finally, the US Customs needs to do a better job rooting out illegal guns. How they do this, I'm not sure, but I have to assume if it's under the guise of "homeland security" they can pretty much get a blank check to figure it out.

While all of this won't stop gun violence, it will certainly move the needle in the right direction.
OK, that's an actual discussion.

Mental healthcare? An important consideration. But delivering the appropriate healthcare to troubled individuals is a a very difficult task. What level of pre-emptive intervention is justifiable? When you look at the history of mass shootings, it's pretty clear that many of the shooters would not have been easily identified or prevented from acting out. Care for those with mental health issues is not just a a problem in the US - it's a common problem everywhere. Where there is not easy access to guns, people rarely are able to act out by killing a lot of people. Even suicides are much less likely to be successful if people don't have easy access to guns.

The drug war? Sure - it's been a big problem. You could certainly argue that the drug war itself has increased rather than decreased gang & gun violence. The worst effects of that drug war have been felt in countries like Mexico, Colombia, El Salvador & Guatemala - countries that have much, much higher homicide rates than the US. Drugs & the gang violence that goes along with it is a problem in most countries. There's a lot of drug & gang violence in Canada & a significant number of related homicides. Same in the UK & other other European countries, but the homicide rate is lower because even participants in the illegal drug trade & gang members are much less likely to have easy access to guns ... & killing people without a gun requires more effort & intentionality.

Personal responsibility? Of course. But it's pretty clear that people aren't always very responsible when it comes to guns (or anything else). Kids with homicidal impulses seem to be able to get hold of guns with alarming ease. Saying gun owning parents should be responsible is easy ... but how do you actually make them responsible? Holding them responsible after the fact doesn't change the outcome.

Rooting out illegal guns? OK. How do you do that? See how the NRA & gun owners respond to an increased attempt by the authorities to ferret out illegal guns.

Moving the needle in the right direction is what gun control advocates in the US have been trying to do for decades without a whole lot of success. Assault weapons bans, bump stocks, limited magazines, extended background checks, closing gun show loop holes - every possible measure aimed at reducing the gun violence rate has met vigorous opposition by the powerful gun rights lobby. It's a complicated problem with no easy solutions, but pretending that the homicide statistics don't show anything that particularly relates to the levels of gun ownership in the US is delusional.
 
The anguish felt by parents whose children are killed in a senseless school shooting - that's understandable, rooted in the most fundamental of human emotions. The anger felt by gun nuts convinced that the guvment is coming to take their guns ... that's just a product of so much delusional BS. Where your anger comes from that seems to make you think you are entitled to dismiss, out of hand, statistics as "****ing stupid", only you can answer.
My anger? No, I wasn't angry. I just utilized an intensifier because you weren't addressing the inanity of the metric you were using.

You're still deflecting, by the way. You're deflecting with your appeal to emotion (the one that I highlighted but you opted to deliberately misquote my having done so by omitting my actual response and replacing it with what I quoted you as having posted), you're deflecting with your "gun nuts" strawman and you're deflecting by addressing what you presume to be my mental state.

Edit: I misstated that first example of deflection I identified. You omitted my actual response and replaced it with my quote of you having previously presumed to be my mental state. I quoted your ad hominem and then quoted your appeal to emotion before posting an image that you saw fit to remove.
 
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