Guns

[Danoff]

yes, I'm sorry, I read it wrong.

Fatal firearms accidents per year: 1.100 click me.

but what surprises me is this, U.S. quadruples Canada or European countries (all first world countries) in murders per capita.

I've seen the same 30k number used in some articles. So I tried to find the source of this number. After some web-searching, I found that it relates to overall deaths from guns.

I found the following link that gives us the data from 2006 for deaths from firearms, which breaksdown as follows:

Suicides_____16,883
Homicides____12,791
Accidents_______642
Other___________580
Total________30,896

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

I also read part of FoolKiller's excellant link above, and found some additional data from the CDC in regard to accidental guns deaths during 2001. The CDC reported 802 accidental gun deaths during 2001 (which is similar to the number shown in FoolKiller's post above).

Most articles that I've seen, talk about the strong link between suicides and having guns in the house, but also point out the weak link between homicides and gun ownership.

Edit: I see that I've been tree'd by LizMcQueen due to my slow typing. Must need more practice. I'm off to the 'Ring for said practice!

Respectfully,
GTsail

All of the numbers reported above added together are dwarfed by the number of times guns are used to thwart crimes annually in the US. Guns are far more likely to be used in self-defense than in committing a crime. Some reports will disagree with that claim, but those reports require a shot to be fired to count as a case where guns are used in self-defense - which is silly.

 

[Tornado]

Even assuming the statistic to be true - which it isn't by a very long way. In fact the US is at just about half the average for the world - at 12.3 per 100,000 compared to 20.8 for the world. Compare that to the horrific, massively-violent, war-torn St. Lucia with 17.6 (43% higher than the US), the phenomenally psychopathic nation of Nepal with 15.1 (23% higher than the US) or those lunatic bastards in Cape Verde with 25.1 (204% higher than the US). The world leader is Eritrea at 48.4 (393% higher than the US), closely followed by the bloodthirsty baby-murderers of the Cook Islands at 45.0 (366% higher than the US).

Wait, are you talking about traffic accidents?

 

[Famine]

Since darkninja brought it up as an example of how violent the USA is, yes.

No, I don't know why either.

 

[Tornado]

Okay. I was assuming that's what you meant until you started mentioning "bloodthirsty baby-murderers" and I was like: wait, what?

 

[Famine]

Apparently the US's position as #1 for road deaths (even though it isn't) proves that it's a violent nation, thus road deaths = inherent national violence...

 

[darkninja210]

What on Earth does violence have to do with deaths from road traffic accidents?

Even assuming the statistic to be true - which it isn't by a very long way. In fact the US is at just about half the average for the world - at 12.3 per 100,000 compared to 20.8 for the world. Compare that to the horrific, massively-violent, war-torn St. Lucia with 17.6 (43% higher than the US), the phenomenally psychopathic nation of Nepal with 15.1 (23% higher than the US) or those lunatic bastards in Cape Verde with 25.1 (204% higher than the US). The world leader is Eritrea at 48.4 (393% higher than the US), closely followed by the bloodthirsty baby-murderers of the Cook Islands at 45.0 (366% higher than the US).

The second part was meant to be a separate idea clearly you didn't catch that. Where was it stated that vehicular fatalities contribute to the US being a violent nation? Oh that's right it wasn't made quit strawmanning.

Darkninja's curious as to where your statistics are coming from. Ahhh found them wikipedia wow. Would you like me to change some of that for you? BTW none of the countries you listed have citations. Is Darkninja allowed to make up imaginary numbers as well. Also the comparison was for the US compared to Canada and European countries. In order to point out its stupid to compare one country to another with no clear reason as to why they are different.

 

[Dapper]

Is that really written in the third person? I's confused.

 

[Omnis]

Mike is rocky top slang for Dark Ninja.

 

[Tornado]

Toronado is curious as to where this discussion will go from here.

 

[Famine]

The second part was meant to be a separate idea clearly you didn't catch that. Where was it stated that vehicular fatalities contribute to the US being a violent nation? Oh that's right it wasn't made quit strawmanning.

Then let me address your (apparent) two points individually:

Why is the US #1 for vehicular fatalities SOURCE:http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/he...vehicle-deaths

It isn't. Why is this a point that needs bringing up in a thread about guns. Quit strawmanning.

Its not guns its people the US is truly just plain one of the most violent nations in the world. Have you seen the national defense budget? Do you know how many fight clubs there are? Have you listened to popular music among males? Have you watched any TV?

In order:

Yes, the national defence budget is 4.3% of GDP compared to 7% for Israel, 7.7% for Oman and 8.2% for Saudi Arabia.
No, the very nature of fight clubs is that they are secretive so neither do you.
Yes, it's the same popular music amongst males as in the UK (primarily), Australia and Europe. Listened to any Scandinavian death metal recently? Check out Autopsy Torment, Ribspreader, Panzerchrist or Tiamat.
Yes, a lot of US TV makes it to UK shores and is increasingly co-funded by UK media companies - and I've just come back from the US recently, so watched a lot of US TV while I was there. Many of my personal favourites are US shows - the Simpsons, Futurama, Firefly, Stargate (largely filmed in Canada) and Threshold. My dad was a big fan of Bones and never had the compulsion to shoot anyone.

The US glorifies violence and it has a correlative effect IMO.

You are yet to present any evidence to support your opinion (and have apparently presented road traffic deaths in a completely unconnected manner). Quit strawmanning.

Darkninja has met parents that actually teach their children to hit back, violence can be sporting wrestling, boxing, fight clubs ect, but it should not be glorified and made to be cool to hurt another or gain respect by killing another.

Wait, I'm confused. Are fight clubs sporting or an example of the US glorifying violence?

Darkninja's curious as to where your statistics are coming from. Ahhh found them wikipedia wow. Would you like me to change some of that for you?

You can if you wish. Luckily, Wikipedia has quite tight editors who like to make sure inaccurate information entered is quite quickly reversed to the reality. Your information, however, has come from a single website quoting eleven year old statistics with a quoted source I doubt you bothered to check - would you like me to make a website with some made-up statistics citing a source you have no intention of corroborating the numbers with?

The data is also skewed very badly - it presents road deaths per 100,000 population without correcting for miles driven. Put that in and the US is a little under twice as dangerous as the UK or 0.3% as dangerous as the United Arab Emirates.

BTW none of the countries you listed have citations. Is Darkninja allowed to make up imaginary numbers as well.

Read harder - it's quite clearly posted that this is the source of the data and I actually bothered to double check the source was quoted accurately before I posted.

Also the comparison was for the US compared to Canada and European countries.

You did not present it as such. You merely posted that "the US #1 for vehicular fatalities" based on eleven year old stats you didn't bother to check - which isn't true on any level.

Also, last I checked, Japan isn't in Europe.

In order to point out its stupid to compare one country to another with no clear reason as to why they are different.

Then why are you comparing the levels of military spending, numbers of fight clubs, genres of popular music and popular television in the US to other countries with no clear reason as to why they are different (or indeed evidence that they are)? Darkninja should concentrate on lining up evidence to support his opinion rather than presenting his posts in the third person.


The culture of the USA is no more inherently violent - or glamorises it - than the culture of any other secular first world country. Yes, I've been there (I got married there). What any of this has to do with guns escapes me, except as a possible entrance point to a badly flawed "Americans are violent, violent people shouldn't have guns" argument.

 

[GTsail]

.....The world leader (in traffic accidents) is Eritrea at 48.4 (393% higher than the US), closely followed by the bloodthirsty baby-murderers of the Cook Islands at 45.0 (366% higher than the US).

Thanks Famine!

Note to self: cancel vacation plans to the Cook Islands!

I normally like to maintain a constant fluid level. Going down a few quarts is not my idea of a good vacation.

St. Lucia would seem to be a better choice. While St. Lucia has a high traffic accident rate, it is mostly from "4-wheeler" accidents (which I assume means dune-buggies), so it sounds like my kind of place!

Respectfully.
GTsail

 

[darkninja210]

The culture of the USA is no more inherently violent - or glamorises it - than the culture of any other secular first world country. Yes, I've been there (I got married there). What any of this has to do with guns escapes me, except as a possible entrance point to a badly flawed "Americans are violent, violent people shouldn't have guns" argument.

Darkninja thinks you believe i am am antigun......Darkninja suggests you read, and kudos to taking things out of context. Cheers mate.

but what surprises me is this, U.S. quadruples Canada or European countries (all first world countries) in murders per capita.

Why is the US #1 for vehicular fatalities SOURCE:http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/he...vehicle-deaths

It isn't. Why is this a point that needs bringing up in a thread about guns. Quit strawmanning.

Out of Context much? It is compared to Canada and European countries.

Read harder - it's quite clearly posted that this is the source of the data and I actually bothered to double check the source was quoted accurately before I posted.

Didn't see that link from wikipedia in any case USA 42K vehicular fatalities that is number one for the world bud please try harder.

Yes, the national defence budget is 4.3% of GDP compared to 7% for Israel, 7.7% for Oman and 8.2% for Saudi Arabia.

Which is 663.8 billion wow number one for the world. Compared to Israel 48.6 billion and Saudia Arabia 39.2 billion. Pretty sure you are misrepresenting facts.

No, the very nature of fight clubs is that they are secretive so neither do you.

Are you sure you have been to America. Here is a list of fight clubs for you.
http://www.clarksvillefightclub.com/ (this is the one i attend)
http://www.ufcfightclub.com/
http://www.fightclubmiami.com/
http://www.springfieldfightclub.com/
http://sdfightclub.com/
http://www.phxfightclub.com/
http://www.lonewolfmma.com/
Were you expecting it to be like the movie get your head outta the clouds. Fight clubs also include boxing, martial arts dojos, MMA ect. Now do you know how many establishments are available to people in America to find these sports, and yes they are sports doesn't change that they glorify violence.

Yes, it's the same popular music amongst males as in the UK (primarily), Australia and Europe. Listened to any Scandinavian death metal recently? Check out Autopsy Torment, Ribspreader, Panzerchrist or Tiamat.

Top 40 charts disagree.USA http://www.top40-charts.com/chart.php?cid=27
UK http://www.top40-charts.com/chart.php?cid=25
None of the bands you mentioned are on there.

Yes, a lot of US TV makes it to UK shores and is increasingly co-funded by UK media companies - and I've just come back from the US recently, so watched a lot of US TV while I was there. Many of my personal favourites are US shows - the Simpsons, Futurama, Firefly, Stargate (largely filmed in Canada) and Threshold. My dad was a big fan of Bones and never had the compulsion to shoot anyone.

No one should have the compulsion to kill another unless its absolutely necessary. However many publication feel that televised violence in America is a problem.
http://www.ridgenet.org/szaflik/tvrating.htm
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/20/violent-tv-makes-violent-america/

Now how about we quite playing this game and get to something more on topic. Darkninja is for no kind of gun control except when it comes to violent criminals. Do you have any problems with that?

One last thing if America isn't the most violent first world country which one is?

 

[Famine]

Darkninja thinks you believe i am am antigun......Darkninja suggests you read, and kudos to taking things out of context. Cheers mate.

I suggest you drop out of third person and stop doing the things you're accusing others of doing.

Out of Context much? It is compared to Canada and European countries.

It is compared to Canada and some European countries. If you omit a load of European countries, that is.

Didn't see that link from wikipedia in any case USA 42K vehicular fatalities that is number one for the world bud please try harder.

It's not even close. Have a look at India - and it's half that for China.

Which is 663.8 billion wow number one for the world. Compared to Israel 48.6 billion and Saudia Arabia 39.2 billion. Pretty sure you are misrepresenting facts.

How so?

You throw the raw numbers out and they sound awesome. America is SO violent it spends nearly 0.7 trillion a year on WAR! Put the numbers in context - expenditure as a percentage of GDP - and America's expenditure on WAR! is nowhere near that of other countries.

You want to paint America as violent for your own reasons. You are yet to succeed in presenting evidence that this is the case.

Are you sure you have been to America.

Very. There's two threads about it in the Rumble Strip and I'm in the process of making a third having come back on Monday.

Here is a list of fight clubs for you.

A whole seven? Hold. The. Phone.

Were you expecting it to be like the movie get your head outta the clouds.

What movie? Whatever movie it is, I doubt I've seen it.

Fight clubs also include boxing, martial arts dojos, MMA ect. Now do you know how many establishments are available to people in America to find these sports, and yes they are sports doesn't change that they glorify violence.

Martial arts doesn't glorify violence. If you think they do, you've been going to the wrong clubs. That you'd class martial arts under "fight clubs" suggests this to be the case.

Top 40 charts disagree.

Disagree with what?

Bruno Mars is top of the US chart right now. 5th in UK chart. Rihanna is top of the UK chart right now. 7th in US chart. Katy Perry is 4th in one, 2nd in the other. Nelly is 4th in one, 8th in the other. US chart music is little different from UK chart music - you have Simon Cowell to thank for that one. You're posting links and not even reading them...

None of the bands you mentioned are on there.

That's because they're Scandinavian death metal bands. That's why I said "Scandinavian death metal". They won't ever get in the Top 40, except the Top 40 of death metal. Their lyrics are far more gruesome, gory and violent than any music you've ever come across - just look at their names! Yet it's your contention that American popular music makes America violent - despite Europe having the same music and far more violent music originating from other countries.

No one should have the compulsion to kill another unless its absolutely necessary. However many publication feel that televised violence in America is a problem.

Which, if American TV wasn't so popular in the UK, would be an interesting and non-falsifiable claim.

Now how about we quite playing this game

What game? You're posting rubbish and evidence doesn't back you up. That's not much of a game.

Darkninja is for no kind of gun control except when it comes to violent criminals. Do you have any problems with that?

I don't really care.

One last thing if America isn't the most violent first world country which one is?

How would you quantify it? Who has stated that it either is or is not?

 

[darkninja210]

So you've come to this thread to basically troll me? You are a cool guy man a really cool guy. You've already admitted you don't care about the subject of guns so what are you doing here? seems like you are here to merely derail the topic. You have consistently dodged questions and taken statements out of context; Darkninja's done with you till you have something useful to say.

 

[Keef]

So you've come to this thread to basically troll me? You are a cool guy man a really cool guy. You've already admitted you don't care about the subject of guns so what are you doing here? seems like you are here to merely derail the topic. You have consistently dodged questions and taken statements out of context; Darkninja's done with you till you have something useful to say.

Famine happens to have a glorious scientific reputation here on the boards, and I'm sure in other aspects of his life as well. Maybe not the pub, but hey, but pub is the pub. Before you start judging people - wrongly at that - you might want to peruse these threads and get a feel for peoples' thoughts an opinions, their backgrounds, their story, etc. Have some respect brochacho, otherwise you won't get any in return.

 

[Nicksfix]

So you've come to this thread to basically troll me? You are a cool guy man a really cool guy. You've already admitted you don't care about the subject of guns so what are you doing here? seems like you are here to merely derail the topic. You have consistently dodged questions and taken statements out of context; Darkninja's done with you till you have something useful to say.

1. Famine has justifiable reason to come to this thread,and it's not to troll you.

2. Famine is cool (at least you got that part right).

3. Do you really need to ask why Famine is in this thread ?

4. Excuse me ! Who derailed what ? You bring up U.S. road deaths and fightclubs. What the hell does that have to do with the topic at hand which happens to be about GUNS .

5. Something useful to say ? Examine your posts.

Nicksfix say to darkninja210 : tread lightly.

 

[Lasdul]

1. Famine has justifiable reason to come to this thread,and it's not to troll you.

2. Famine is cool (at least you got that part right).

3. Do you really need to ask why Famine is in this thread ?

4. Excuse me ! Who derailed what ? You bring up U.S. road deaths and fightclubs. What the hell does that have to do with the topic at hand which happens to be about GUNS .

5. Something useful to say ? Examine your posts.

Nicksfix say to darkninja210 : tread lightly.

I 100 percent agree, just one thing you said was kind of silly. Anyone has a perfectly justifiable reason to come to this thread- because it's public and anyone who damn well wants to can.

 

[Talon]

So you've come to this thread to basically troll me? You are a cool guy man a really cool guy. You've already admitted you don't care about the subject of guns so what are you doing here? seems like you are here to merely derail the topic. You have consistently dodged questions and taken statements out of context; Darkninja's done with you till you have something useful to say.

He said no such thing. He said he doesn't care what you think about guns, and I doubt anyone else does either with your attitude.

 

[Famine]

So you've come to this thread to basically troll me?

Yes. In the previous thousand posts I didn't even make one contribution but as soon as you registered and started posting, bam, there I was. All for you.

You've already admitted you don't care about the subject of guns

Darkninja suggests you read

You have consistently dodged questions and taken statements out of context

It's not the element between cobalty and manganesey.

 

[ledhed]

in the USA this isn't a topic really since the supreme court recognised individual right to keep and bear arms.

of course there will be always some liberal pockets of resistence that live in theory land and exclude reality from any reasonable discussion on this subject.....But the fact remains a weapon is a weapon --call it a gun a knife a club..its the person who uses it that needs regulation.

 

[OG_Wretch]

All my guns have to be locked up at night because if I didn't they would go on a rampage but,
only in gun free zones because that is where they feel most slighted.

The knives still behave pretty well so far.

But seriously, my guns have killed less people than Ted Kennedy's car even though
his car killed less people than his Dad's "hired" gu...er, I mean goons...
...but i digress.

Seems there is a common theme to this killing stuff and it's man so,
maybe if we just made man illegal or had stricter rules on them...
or maybe just carry out existing consequences on the bad guys. 💡

Who gets to decide the rules and who takes first watch so no one cheats
by using a stick or tall building to kill someone after all the guns are gone?


There is no ultimate solution other than to pay attention to your surroundings
because if someone wants to kill you or anyone and they are smart enough to make a good plan
then you or the target will end up dead.

If there was such a thing as perfect or total security then no one would have been assassinated...
...ever.


Be responsible for yourself, because sometimes others are looking for those who aren't...
...and chances are that they will have a gun or other weapon even if they aren't supposed to.

 

[Dotini]

According to interviews currently airing on CNN, there is the beginning of a rush for concealed carry permits for Congresspersons and their staffers.

Public safety authorities also interviewed stressed how important it was for persons carrying these concealed weapons not only to have training in the safe handling and use of firearms, but also training in how to react in stressful situations.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[ExigeEvan]

Yeah that does confuse me about the incident. The guy was wrestled to the ground. There was no-one armed in the vacinity?

 

[RustyNut]

It's been said that arguing with others is largely about convincing yourself, and less about convincing others about the validity of your arguments. I am convinced that I have the right to own guns, I own many of them so it took little convincing. And really I don't care what others think as long as I continue to own them and even if in the future I am unable to, the individual in disagreement with me has little to no effect on my life.

I believe myself to be a good person who repects others rights and am a responsible gun owner, that's all that really matters to me, trueness to oneself. Haters always gonna hate.

 

[Tornado]

That's not the reaction I was expecting, to say the least.

 

[OG_Wretch]

Yeah that does confuse me about the incident. The guy was wrestled to the ground. There was no-one armed in the vacinity?

Sometimes it's bad form to return fire in a crowd when a well placed kick to the pods will do the trick.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Sometimes it's bad form to return fire in a crowd when a well placed kick to the pods will do the trick.

They guy had a 30 round magazine! Must have taken him 20 secs to squeeze them out at minimum.

 

[OG_Wretch]

They guy had a 30 round magazine! Must have taken him 20 secs to squeeze them out at minimum.

Not even half that time is needed to empty that magazine.

Shock would have slowed time for everyone there in any case even after they realized what was happening.

 

[Dotini]

Sometimes it's bad form to return fire in a crowd when a well placed kick to the pods will do the trick.

Unless a person is specially trained for these kinds of situations of high stress and danger, the #1 recommendation among public safety authorities is to flee the scene as quickly as you can.

That's why I worry about young congressional staffers carrying guns.

Respectfully submitted and eager for correction,
Dotini

 

[OG_Wretch]

Unless a person is specially trained for these kinds of situations of high stress and danger, the #1 recommendation among public safety authorities is to flee the scene as quickly as you can.

That's why I worry about young congressional staffers carrying guns.

Respectfully submitted and eager for correction,
Dotini

They would do better to carry ranch rifles or shotguns for the crazies
and circulating guards an spotters for snipers if they are to do anything.

Otherwise it's just a waste of time, money and personal freedom to try an fend off the random armed fruitcakes.