Has Forza 3 suppressed you appetite for GT5?

[Pierced Lead]

*snip*

You are comparing pre-set animations to a physics engine. Those animations were made to be completed fully, they could not make a stop and reverse technique for every point of that animation unless you're wanting a bigger and more heavy game. Physics on the other hand, are calculations made to show how an object (or objects) behave in the game's world, something that should be with the bullets and walking in L4D. In FM3, those so called superior physics have a flaw which causes the car to like umm, stand on its front bumper, which is not possible to do so easily.

And the damage model is ok, but still, you're supposed to be done with the first 60mph hit. And that's what I want from GT5 (although I'm pretty sure I'll be disappointed)

 

[Seismica]

Major reason for that; these cars are still fundamentally indestructible objects.

They do not bend or crumple. They do not absorb the energy of a crash like cars do in real life. So the game sends that impact energy somewhere, which is why everything in-game bounces when it should grind into and then spin off.

The graphical bit may lead some people to believe that the cars actually absorb impact, but the crashes aren't based or calculated off what you see, are they? Hitboxes! (that's also why that video the lamborghini and Porsche crumpled but didn't appear to make contact).

They had it right in Forza 2 though, thats the thing

I was over at my cousins the other night, and he is one of those "take em or leave em" types when it comes to racing games. He's not that good at them! Give him GT5P with pro physics and other aids either off or at low values, he can't get the car around the track without loads of practice. So, he put on the FMIII demo, picked the R8, turned off most of the assists, and proceeded to blast around the track into first place. Hmmm... Dumbed down? I'd say so.

This is fine if you want an accessible, "arcadey" experience, but not if you want to experience thrashing a car around a track. As for the rollover physics...oh dear...

The R8 is 4WD. The grip level of 4WD cars is immense. Look at all 4WD cars in prologue compared to Rear wheel drive horsepower equivalents, and theres no real comparison, RWD takes a great deal of throttle control, 4WD its full throttle out of every corner without any problems. The only exception to this i must say is the Mines R34, but that still isn't exactly hard to drive

Drive a Corvette, Viper of GT in Forza 3 and there will be a lot of wheelspin and oversteer just like in GT5P. I havn't even played the full game and i am pretty certain there will be an element of difficulty with the higher powered cars, because not only did Forza 2 have this feature, just about every this gen racing title has an element of that.

 

[Seismica]

*double post sorry*

 

[phil-t]

@the OP,

In a word, YES...

Personally, I'd not mind if they delay until summer 2010..

The only downside that I credit in FM3, is that it is just a racing game, and just taking the racing element, even if the graphics are acknowledged as a step up from FM2 (See Digital Foundry's article), at the end of the day, it's a racing game, you pick a car, you go on a circuit, and there is not a lot you can really do with the physics to make it unequivocably different to it's predecessor and maintain validity in the real world.

In that sense, If GT5 is largely just a polished GT5p with more cars/tracks (little to no weather) and a little damage (within the realms of licensing), then it is not going to feel much different IMO, and you may be quite off-put by this.

However, as I've found with FM3, the actual things that matter more are the other features.. I've just spent many hours in the livery editor, selling stuff on the storefront, collecting some awesome designs off other users that I then use whilst racing.. And the new MP (slight broken, but promised to be improved) and single player experience is largely another area that makes the game feel fresh..

Bottom line with FM3, had they hit GT5p levels of graphics (and they haven't), but kept everything as per FM2 with just more cars/tracks, the game would fade very quickly IMO.

And this is why I hope GT5 has much more then more cars/tracks and graphical polish over GT5p, or you will feel get that deja-vu feeling all too quickly, and with no depth to the features that can ruin the longevity of a game..

However, track editor/weather/much improved online would to me do far more for making GT5 feel fresh then a bit of graphical polish and damage (which they are limited in what they can do by licensing AFAIK).

So, FM3 can tide me over nicely, and I'd happily wait until Summer 2010 to get a new 'fresh' GT game..

 

[Tenacious D]

As for the price, that's all Microsoft. TDU went through a similar price exchange & Atari staff informed us that MS set what they thought was an appropriate price, that everything on the Marketplace goes through them first.

Well, here's a news flash. Apparently, MS made an announcement somewhere that there will indeed be a DLC pack coming on the 17th, apparently a car pack, and it will be... dare I say it, free. Could MS's games division finally be nudging itself in the direction of SONY, SEGA and Ninty, and loosing some of that monopolisticness?

Well... there is a God...

In that sense, If GT5 is largely just a polished GT5p with more cars/tracks (little to no weather) and a little damage (within the realms of licensing), then it is not going to feel much different IMO, and you may be quite off-put by this.

And this is why I hope GT5 has much more then more cars/tracks and graphical polish over GT5p, or you will feel get that deja-vu feeling all too quickly, and with no depth to the features that can ruin the longevity of a game..

I think for most people, this would actually be enough. With GT4, while some people thought it gave almost nothing to them over GT3, go figure, it gave the rest of us an incredibly long, deep, satisfying experience... and I'd better stop right there. I missed racing modifications, but that lasted about two minutes. After around 16 months of game playing, I still have yet to touch an enduro.

I will have to say though that Forza's race mod and livery system has spoiled me, and I want something like that in GT5. If it isn't in, that will smart for a little more than two minutes, but it really won't be a huge deal. I'll have both games, so I'll be able to play with my paint shop in Forza, and race the cars in Gran Turismo. Fingers crossed that it makes it in though, because you are right in a way. As big a game as GT5 will be, things like a paint shop and body upgrades will make it absolutely huge. And consider the possibility that I can create a race car, paint it up, snap some high definition pics in Photo Mode, save these images to a thumb drive. Take this to a Kinkos and have them print up posters!

This kind of potential simply has me drooling for GT5 all over again...

 

[Antti-san]

Drive a Corvette, Viper of GT in Forza 3 and there will be a lot of wheelspin and oversteer just like in GT5P.

I just want to throw my 2 cents here. Yes, powerful RWD cars like the Viper or the Corvette do oversteer in Forza 3, but IMO, compared to Prologue, the oversteer is too easy to control and predictable. And that is probably my biggest single complaint about the physics engine in Forza 3.

I really enjoy driving the RWD cars in Prologue, since it takes quite a bit of skill to drive them properly on the edge in that game. And for the record, I always use pro physics. Unfortunately in Forza 3, I just don't get that kind of satisfaction.

 

[Lucas]

Well, here's a news flash. Apparently, MS made an announcement somewhere that there will indeed be a DLC pack coming on the 17th, apparently a car pack, and it will be... dare I say it, free.

I would hardly call that news.

Could MS's games division finally be nudging itself in the direction of SONY, SEGA and Ninty, and loosing some of that monopolisticness?

I bet it has something to do with the new Ferrari. Or to show people that DLC is worth the money after this one. Anyways, I don't blame MS. Giving things for free would be stupid, in my opinion. I don't want people working for nothing.

 

[Lucas]

Damn double post. Please delete.

 

[daus26]

Unfortunately it doesn't for me. It's not because it's a bad game, but GT5 is just a different experience, something I'd prefer more. Unless Forza 3 can deliver the same experiences I feel when playing GT5, it will never suppress it. I do wish I can play it though.

 

[Seismica]

@the OP,

In a word, YES...

Personally, I'd not mind if they delay until summer 2010..

The only downside that I credit in FM3, is that it is just a racing game, and just taking the racing element, even if the graphics are acknowledged as a step up from FM2 (See Digital Foundry's article), at the end of the day, it's a racing game, you pick a car, you go on a circuit, and there is not a lot you can really do with the physics to make it unequivocably different to it's predecessor and maintain validity in the real world.

In that sense, If GT5 is largely just a polished GT5p with more cars/tracks (little to no weather) and a little damage (within the realms of licensing), then it is not going to feel much different IMO, and you may be quite off-put by this.

However, as I've found with FM3, the actual things that matter more are the other features.. I've just spent many hours in the livery editor, selling stuff on the storefront, collecting some awesome designs off other users that I then use whilst racing.. And the new MP (slight broken, but promised to be improved) and single player experience is largely another area that makes the game feel fresh..

Bottom line with FM3, had they hit GT5p levels of graphics (and they haven't), but kept everything as per FM2 with just more cars/tracks, the game would fade very quickly IMO.

And this is why I hope GT5 has much more then more cars/tracks and graphical polish over GT5p, or you will feel get that deja-vu feeling all too quickly, and with no depth to the features that can ruin the longevity of a game..

However, track editor/weather/much improved online would to me do far more for making GT5 feel fresh then a bit of graphical polish and damage (which they are limited in what they can do by licensing AFAIK).

So, FM3 can tide me over nicely, and I'd happily wait until Summer 2010 to get a new 'fresh' GT game..

Have you played GT4? Do you realise how in-depth the gameplay of previous GT games has been? Or are you basing the GT gameplay on prologue? Its not all about graphics. Prologue kind of was about graphics, that and a sort of online beta test, but because the game was way less than half done at that point, we see very few of the features that make a GT game. It was a taster, i woudln't consider it a game in itself, its a weeks worth of gameplay if you don't count the online, its pathetic. But GT4, that was 500+ hours of gameplay (the endurance races alone are well over 100 hours), and that didn't have online.

Or are you basing your opinions on Features Forza 3 has that havn't been confirmed for GT5? Because the way i see it, Forza 3 is not that much of a step up from Forza 2. The physics and graphics have been improved, but the rest of the game is about the same if not worse in Forza 3 than it was in its predecessor.

Forza 2 had the online advantage over GT, but Forza 3 does not have custom public lobbies which is a big mistake. The public lobbies they have now are similar to the ones in GT5P, just game matches set by the server, you do a race and then you have to re-enter a different lobby, with different people in it most likely. Sure they have private lobbies aswell, but private lobbies for GT5 have been confirmed... So the only big feature(s) Forza has over GT is the livery editor and the car customisation. But again i feel people are comparing it to prologue. The tuning options in GT4 were quite good, and they kept you within realistic ranges so you don't screw with the balance of the car, by maxing all gear ratios and setting the ride height lower than the point where the wheels are touching the body... The only things that were missing are engine swaps, drivetrain upgrades and the aerodynamic/body upgrades. But aero upgrades have been mentioned by Kaz a number of times, what it details we do not know as they have been very secretive about it. But they are confirmed. We also don't know whether there will be a livery editor in GT5 either, but this has also been mentioned, although we havn't see any real evidence of it. The chances are we will have some sort of online trading, we saw it in GTPSP with ad-hoc, we had memory card trades in GT4, there is going to be car trading online in GT5, it is highly doubtful they would overlook this.

It seems you and i take a different point of view. I take the view that features not confirmed for GT5 are still possibilities (some more likely than others, some downright improbable). You take the view that only features confirmed will be in the game and no more will be added. If that was the case, GT5 is turning out to be a very poor prospect, because PD have a habbit of not confirming or revealing things until the last minute. Lamborghini's inclusion in the game was not even announced, they just put a Gallardo in a trailor, they made no big deal about it at all. What other things have they been holding back that they think is no big deal?

 

[Devedander]

You know what company coined that phrase, right?

Come on dude...have a guess.

I really hope we are talking about the same thing here. Please clarify one more time:

You are saying that the ability to roll your car back over after it's on it's roof is a bug/glitch and not a feature?

But seriously, you're making a fool out of yourself by comparing 'The Turtle' to L4D's revive/pull up animations.

Why?

Because they ARE ANIMATIONS!

They have been, each, individually, specifically animated by Valve. There is only one way you can pull Louis up from the ledge when he runs after some pills. There is only one way you can help Bill up when his hip goes. There is only ONE animation for each character and each interaction (pull up, revive, etc). That is the only animation it will play during that time. It is pre-set, like the reload animation, like the melee animation, like the jump animation. The closest thing that the player has to control over them is the ability to start and prematurely stop them, and guess what? That just causes a new, pre-set animation!

The Turtle still gives players full control. Over movement, over time, over speed and angle. It is NOT a pre-set animation. You are responsible entirely for what happens. If you stop doing the turtle, is will NOT give you a "failed-to-turtle" animation. From a physics, gameplay, and animation point of view, the turtle is closer to a ragdoll than it is to L4D's help animations.

Honestly, you thought the get back up movements in L4D were physics-based?

Are you kidding?

They aren't physics based but they are the same situation... they are a set of things taht should happen and being aborted mid way. What I am saying is, the fact that the car rocks back and forth in that video showing the "flawed physics of Forza" isn't a legitimate demostration of what they are claiming. The car rocks back and forth because you can let go of the button mid way and the car stops rolling back onto it's wheels and thus (due to the physics of the game) rolls back on to it's roof.

Yes I know in L4D it's a canned animation, but it's the same principle, just because you can let go of the button half way through doesn't mean helping someone up is a glitch, even if you do it over and over again to make it look ridiculous.

 

[Devedander]

You are comparing pre-set animations to a physics engine. Those animations were made to be completed fully, they could not make a stop and reverse technique for every point of that animation unless you're wanting a bigger and more heavy game. Physics on the other hand, are calculations made to show how an object (or objects) behave in the game's world, something that should be with the bullets and walking in L4D. In FM3, those so called superior physics have a flaw which causes the car to like umm, stand on its front bumper, which is not possible to do so easily.

And the damage model is ok, but still, you're supposed to be done with the first 60mph hit. And that's what I want from GT5 (although I'm pretty sure I'll be disappointed)

As I said above, I am SPECIFICALLY talking about the video where the car is shown rocking on it's back titled "Car can't roll back over". That is not a glitch in the physics engine, that is a feature (the ability to roll your car back over) being aborted mid process over and over again to look silly and make a baseless claim.

I am not referring to the physics engine overall, just the how that turtle video ties into making claims about the physics engine.

This is all getting very complicated and I think you guys are not paying attention to what I am saying. I am NOT talking overall physics in terms of what's destructable or bends or rides up funny on a wall, I am talking about the video in which a car is claimed to be unable to roll back over due to poor physics when the case is completely not that at all.

I think you guys are taking this and running with it to include any and every deficiency in the game... I am talking about that specific video, that specific event.

I am saying 2 things:

1 The ability to roll your car back over after being on it's roof is a feature, not a glitch. This was purpose built into the game by T10.

2 The video showing the car turtled and rocking back and forth is improperly claiming that it is stuck on it's roof and acting that way because of the game when in reality it's the person controlling it to appear that way.

Do either of you disagree with either of those two statements becuase that is all I am talking about, not the bevy of other tangents you guys brought up?

 

[The Jenius]

As I said above, I am SPECIFICALLY talking about the video where the car is shown rocking on it's back titled "Car can't roll back over". That is not a glitch in the physics engine, that is a feature (the ability to roll your car back over) being aborted mid process over and over again to look silly and make a baseless claim.

I am not referring to the physics engine overall, just the how that turtle video ties into making claims about the physics engine.

This is all getting very complicated and I think you guys are not paying attention to what I am saying. I am NOT talking overall physics in terms of what's destructable or bends or rides up funny on a wall, I am talking about the video in which a car is claimed to be unable to roll back over due to poor physics when the case is completely not that at all.

I think you guys are taking this and running with it to include any and every deficiency in the game... I am talking about that specific video, that specific event.

I am saying 2 things:

1 The ability to roll your car back over after being on it's roof is a feature, not a glitch. This was purpose built into the game by T10.

2 The video showing the car turtled and rocking back and forth is improperly claiming that it is stuck on it's roof and acting that way because of the game when in reality it's the person controlling it to appear that way.

Do either of you disagree with either of those two statements becuase that is all I am talking about, not the bevy of other tangents you guys brought up?

You are going to die trying to argue your point here, there is too much resistance and if someone believes GT is the best game ever and is willing to forgo Forza then so be it. For me driving a Lotus IRL is closer to Forza than GT but I can't convince some poor fool here of this so I just play the game and forget the craziness in here. You should do the same, play an awesome game and wait till GT comes out, if it’s not as good you know where Forza is. If it is then you got to play the best racing game out until the better one came along.

The problem with a forum like this is that people are arguing something that’s subjective to their experience, so its like arguing whether food at a certain restaurant is good or not, It depends on what they like. If some fool here, thinks they can tell me an Elise is better on GT when they drive an assembly line Maxima to work then more power to you. But if they truly believe it then you are not going to convince other wise and should just enjoy what you have, others will just be missing out and that’s fine to me.

 

[speedy_2]

OK first off, to answer the question of the thread. I don't have a 360. But, I would buy a 360 just for Forza 3 until GT5 comes out. I like the amount of cars Forza has. More American stuff. Great Graphics as well. It looks like a great game.

Now, this..

Yes coz it's definitive like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iDTXYA_9nQ&feature=player_embedded

Watching this video really makes me mad at the fanboys who kept saying, "Forza has damage and GT doesn't, that's why GT sucks."

Well guess what, that damage engine is horrid. That whole bumper stand aside. I'm talking about the damage only. That is no wear near how a car would react in a situation like that. Nor would it keep driving. I would choose no damage over that any day. So for these fanboys to put Forza so high above GT because it hasn't had damage is just absurd.

 

[Pierced Lead]

*snip*

A bit of misunderstanding there then, sorry

I was referring to the Celica vid in which it stands on its front bumper.

My Bad.

 

[liquid07]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znmb3BtsGos

Forza Real Drifting Trailer...

it hurts...

PD are really going to have to get the finger out IMO.

 

[speedy_2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znmb3BtsGos

Forza Real Drifting Trailer...

it hurts...

PD are really going to have to get the finger out IMO.

I dunno, to me, that didn't really look "real" at all.

 

[Azure Flare]

hell no

 

[Tenacious D]

I'll have to add a couple of bits to the physics argument, having forgotten Devedander's feud. I really wish that people wouldn't drag the bugs into how Forza feels or handles. It's funny to see a bot trying to drive off of a wall while poised on its nose, or see someone spinning around half submerged in the earth. But in GT3, you could power up an Escudo so high it would stand on its tail the whole race, or you could punch through a gap in certain walls in GT2 I think, drive around in the sky ever faster until you pegged the speed at several million miles per hour and crash the game. Abusing the physics engine in a game doesn't really mean anything about it.

Certain things do, like being unable to spin out in GT4 without a lot of extra effort. To me, that's not an issue, but then I just race. To a drifter, it undoubtedly is, because it's an indication as to how authentic the physics is concerning slow speed skid dynamics, which in GT4 weren't all that great. Plus, you didn't have a clutch, so drifting in GT5 took a different approach and a lot of mad skills to master.

In Forza, the consensus is that it's a bit easier than in real life. Not any more authentic, but to a drifter who wants to have some fun and capture an awesome drift video, he probably wouldn't complain. Is the rollover code bullet proof, or is that contributing to the amusing YouTube glitches? Damage still seems too lenient on sim level, but if it contributes to less do-overs or rewinds, is that a bad thing? Some say the tires are still a bit too grippy (raises hand). Is it a bad thing, or okay?

Forza 3 seems to be a funny beast, because some people still really don't like it, and it does seem that T10 have stretched it in both directions, one end toward simulation, the other towards fun and ease of play. To me, the simminess of it warrants those two guys on InsideSimRacing giggling like schoolgirls about it. I don't have a Fanatec wheel or a racing seat, but it does seem like a big enough improvement over Forza 2 that you can call it a bona fide sim.

Of course, I say the same thing about Prologue. Some people experience the boggy understeer and write it off, but forgive Forza for allowing you to scream a bit too fast around turns. It still has oversteer issues like the previous versions, just not as much or as often. It may be that their both off just a scouche, but from opposite ends of the spectrum. I don't know. I still prefer Prologue, and find it more in common with GTR Evo and Live For Speed than I do Forza 3. Then again, F3 is close enough, and has so many cool things you can do with the cars that to me, it's more than good enough.

Anyhow, I still have the flu, what do I know?

 

[Lucas]

Anyhow, I still have the flu, what do I know?

If those things from Forza 3 you mentioned were done on purpose, and I'm asuming that by "grippy tires" you mean "unrealistic"...

...then that sucks. You can always make a different physics engine (like in GT5 or so I heard) for people who aren't good at simulators. Don't spoil the whole engine of the game just for those people. 👎

 

[hugo24]

The AUDI R8 was probably the eaisest car in GT5P to drive even with all assists off, that car handled London at high speed better than any other car so it's probably not a good exaple.

In Australia last night they had a classic episode of Top Gear where they drove the 2005 Mercedes SLR, I went and played it in game in Forza straight afterwards and they have the engine sound near to perfect. I didn't really see the appeal of this car playing it in GT PSP but in Forza it is a beast and very soon ($25,000 off) to be in my garage!

 

[Seismica]

If those things from Forza 3 you mentioned were done on purpose, and I'm asuming that by "grippy tires" you mean "unrealistic"...

...then that sucks. You can always make a different physics engine (like in GT5 or so I heard) for people who aren't good at simulators. Don't spoil the whole engine of the game just for those people. 👎

Its true what you have heard, GT5P has a standard physics engine for the 'softcore' users, the casual gamers and entry users usually go with that. But it has professional physics that are closer to real life and they are generally regarded as the standard for comparisons (with all aids off ofc), just like switching all aids off in FM3. You can't really judge the physics with them on.

I'd say the physics in FM3 are somewhere in-between the standard and professional physics in GT5P. Although my only basis for comaparison is the Audi R8... as that was what i raced in the demo. I also used the Porsche 997 racer, but there is nothing to compare that with in GT5P...

 

[Tenacious D]

If those things from Forza 3 you mentioned were done on purpose, and I'm asuming that by "grippy tires" you mean "unrealistic"...

I'm still not decided on that. I've never experienced actual racing tires myself, or sports tires higher than T rated (may have said Z rated in a post a few months ago). I tried out some racing tires after I posted, which only come in one grade for some reason. The various makes you could use in Forza 2 are gone for some reason. All you can do is widen the tires to increase grip.

It's hard to say. I associate myself with Seismica's remarks as usual, but if you tried it out yourself, I have a feeling you'd be very happy with Forza 3. I am. The difference betwen F3 and 2 isn't that great, but at the same time quite satisfying. Initially, I was thinking I'd play F3 till GT5 came out and then give it to my bro as an early birthday present, but with more time in it, I might go back and forth.

One thing though, the bots are kind of reckless, which does blow. But private online races should be great.

 

[Lucas]

It's hard to say. I associate myself with Seismica's remarks as usual, but if you tried it out yourself, I have a feeling you'd be very happy with Forza 3. I am.

I understand, but to me, a simulator has to be realistic before being fun. I get the fun from racing, messing with different features, etc.

 

[The Jenius]

I'm still not decided on that. I've never experienced actual racing tires myself, or sports tires higher than T rated (may have said Z rated in a post a few months ago). I tried out some racing tires after I posted, which only come in one grade for some reason. The various makes you could use in Forza 2 are gone for some reason. All you can do is widen the tires to increase grip.

It's hard to say. I associate myself with Seismica's remarks as usual, but if you tried it out yourself, I have a feeling you'd be very happy with Forza 3. I am. The difference betwen F3 and 2 isn't that great, but at the same time quite satisfying. Initially, I was thinking I'd play F3 till GT5 came out and then give it to my bro as an early birthday present, but with more time in it, I might go back and forth.

One thing though, the bots are kind of reckless, which does blow. But private online races should be great.

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about, the game still has the racing tires, sport, and street. You need to play more before making comments.

I think on the SIM or IRL spectrum that GT is a little to loose and uncontrolable at the edge and low speeds, while Forza is a bit too controlable at the edge and at lowspeeds is very realistic.

As the guys at SIMRacing have said and from my own real experiences driving a Lotus, I think i am qualified to say, while both clearly on the SIM side despite what the haters say, Forza is closer to RL than GT for me. Driving a car fast is not hard IRL and thats exactly how it should be in a game. I am not always on the ragged edge in the game as I am not IRL but GT forces you to have to concentrate wayyyyy too hard even when not on the edge to keep a car in check.

I have been having a very good time playing online, once the punters get left in the dirt. Other people should to, its just a game enjoy another experience until GT comes out. i don't know why people are so passionate about not having another very good racing experience, seems strange.

 

[I-Runner]

The question is .. "Has Forza 3 suppressed you appetite for GT5?" ..

My answer ..

PD has suppressed my patience ...

I-R

 

[Fredzy]

Driving a car fast is not hard IRL and thats exactly how it should be in a game.

wow.

 

[The Jenius]

Forza has made me able to deal with GT being so far away. It also has me eager to see what PD will fire back.
I think its honestly awesome times we are living in to be able to have the opportunity to experience something like this. I couldn't imagine 50 or 60 years ago, think of everything we have a chance to see. Cell phones, networking, internet, awesome video games etc... Although I think we are getting to the limits of what we can experience it has been awesome.

 

[Seismica]

The question is .. "Has Forza 3 suppressed you appetite for GT5?" ..

At the moment i am playing a game called 'Dungeon Maker' for PSP.

And it has temprarily suppressed my appetite for GT5, despite the fact it is a completely different genre.

Now with Forza it is difficult, everywhere I look I will be reminded of GT, comparing it with GT, every step of the way. I do not own the game. But i know if i did, regardless of how good it is, it would only increase my appetite for GT as i like GTs style of gameplay.

 

[The Jenius]

wow.

So you think driving a car IRL is hard correct?