Help Me Plan My Car Life (new car search @post 290)

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The Nismo 400R idea is hot. I've actually always liked the R33...I think it has the nicest interior of the three. Did MCR or Mines actually make a series run of their special Skylines? Or were they all one-offs? An MCR or Mines R34 would be like unicorn status. Can you imagine the price in 20 years of a Mines R34? How about an RE Amemiya RX-7? Spoon Integra?

R33 seems preferable over the R34



Edit:

Just thinking this through though... The R33 will be going for M3 Sport Evolution money, and there were even fewer of them made. I wonder if I could find anyone to service it (if it ever needs servicing). Also it may come with import fees. I feel like the M3 has a broader appeal too. I'm sure both cars are fantastic to drive.

Edit:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the extreme low production numbers on the R33 will make it a hassle to obtain, a hassle to service, it drives on the wrong side, it may require import fees, and it will possibly not even appreciate as fast as something like the M3 Sport Evo which is a well known and loved commodity.

For ultra-unicorn status, the 400R is the better bet (and it's prettier, a lot prettier). It just also sounds like a ton of work.
 
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How about something like a Ford RS200 or the Merc 190 evo?
I highly recommend forgetting about the RX8. Neither the engine or the trans is terribly reliable. In that regard you would be better off finding either and FD rx7, or finding an RX8 that has had the engine swapped for the 13B-REW (FD/Cosmo engine) or a 20B. But, if you have the bucks and can find one, I highly recommend the Eunos Cosmo or the 67-69 Mazda Cosmo.
I see horsepower isnt your game, Any of the Lotus models should do you well. There is also the Caterham 7. Not a hard top, but it is a blast to drive and come in pretty well priced.
Does age matter? What about finding something like an old Studebaker or Duesenberg or even an Auburn?
 
How about something like a Ford RS200 or the Merc 190 evo?
I highly recommend forgetting about the RX8. Neither the engine or the trans is terribly reliable. In that regard you would be better off finding either and FD rx7, or finding an RX8 that has had the engine swapped for the 13B-REW (FD/Cosmo engine) or a 20B. But, if you have the bucks and can find one, I highly recommend the Eunos Cosmo or the 67-69 Mazda Cosmo.
I see horsepower isnt your game, Any of the Lotus models should do you well. There is also the Caterham 7. Not a hard top, but it is a blast to drive and come in pretty well priced.
Does age matter? What about finding something like an old Studebaker or Duesenberg or even an Auburn?

https://jalopnik.com/you-can-own-this-mercedes-190-2-5-16v-evolution-ii-for-1775715137

I think $700k is a bit of of reach for me! :lol: But that's all the more reason to take the M3 Sport Evolution seriously isn't it?

The Eunos Cosmo, I hadn't ever heard of it, despite @Eunos_Cosmo's screen name. I'm watching a video now. My first thought was, not a chance. But I'm coming around fast. That's actually a really cool car.

Age doesn't totally matter, but I'm a fan of fuel injection.
 
@Eunos_Cosmo a few RE Amemiya cars have been coming up lately, actually. The gamble with the TAS demo cars is that they've usually gone through a few owners since their show days, and lost a lot of their original parts. There was a white FC demo car and it was only about $20k - there was just no interest because at that point, it had been rebuilt and everything.

@Danoff I have a decent idea as to the costs of importing a car into America as that's what I'm doing as we speak (solo, instead of through a dealer). I can help in that regard.
 
https://jalopnik.com/you-can-own-this-mercedes-190-2-5-16v-evolution-ii-for-1775715137

I think $700k is a bit of of reach for me! :lol: But that's all the more reason to take the M3 Sport Evolution seriously isn't it?

The Eunos Cosmo, I hadn't ever heard of it, despite @Eunos_Cosmo's screen name. I'm watching a video now. My first thought was, not a chance. But I'm coming around fast. That's actually a really cool car.

Age doesn't totally matter, but I'm a fan of fuel injection.
I'm honestly not sure that a Duesenberg or Auburn would be much cheaper...
If you are looking towards something imported, keep an eye on this site.
Factory Five also makes some really cool cars that you can buy as turn key ready.
 
I think you ruled out the Z4Ms before. On the E36 front, there's the M3 Lightweight which is pretty rare. What about the 1M Coupe?

I do like the R34 idea. I just watched a video comparison of the R34 with the R35. It had me drooling over the R34.
 
Other suggestions;

Pulsar GTi-R. One of the cars that was imported the **** out of to places like NZ and England during the earlier years. A few made it to America - original ones demand about the same as a Skyline, but way less sought after (could change with time? Maybe).

images


ST205s are becoming legal. An original one might be a good buy too. Carlos Sainz and WRC versions command big money - but again, is the desirability there? Not sure.

FTOs are cool and slowly becoming a poster child. Very hard to find a high end model like a GP-X too, as a lot of the ones that were made went to places like NZ (and were ruined). Only 300 or so were built.
 
Allow me to bring this back to ground for a bit...

You mentioned in you original post, "Bonus points for likely to rise in value." How important is that to you? What is your time horizon for the desired appreciation to happen? In the original post, it sounded like it's not a requirement, more merely a nice-to-have. Of course, I understand the desire to not purchase a depreciating asset, however, significant number of posts seem to have a strong monetary appreciation component to them. If a strong appreciation likelihood really is a requirement within our (in)ability to guess where the future market is going, then I suspect that significantly narrows down the choices, and some of what you are otherwise interested in may not get you there.

As well, you know how it's going. We don't know for sure which direction the macroeconomic situation is going. Perhaps the only thing that trumps greed is fear. The jury is out on if (and when) a US recession is coming soon, and when it does, I suspect luxury assets like entry collector vehicles that you are looking at will drop in value. My personal opinion is that, already we are near or at the peak of an asset bubble; when investment banks are recommending investing in cars as part of a portfolio to their customers, IMO, we've jumped the shark within this economic cycle. How does and how will your timeline jive with the impending recession narrative (if you believe in that at all)? Will things that are out of reach now become within reach then? What if you purchase something within the next year, and a recession hits shortly after, if you care about appreciation?

Now let's actually get to some of the car choices, with my own opinions.

Requirements: Fun, less than 80k miles (this is for judging the price), and not likely to go down in value, will fit in a typical garage. I'm willing to consider 2-seaters, 2+2s, rear wheel drive, front wheel drive, AWD, front/mid/rear engine, trucks, SUVs, etc.

Sounds like you're open. Is one of the primary goals to experience something completely different? Or is something that is very similar to what you already have (say something like a NSX Type R), ok, as long as it meets your other requirements?

Bonus points for low original MSRP (colorado taxes based on that).

How does Colorado treat vehicles that were never sold in the US originally? Would they look up the original MSRP in the home country it was offered in, then convert to USD, or is it based on declared import value, or based on purchase price, or something else?

E30 M3
- This is a great contender. The only issue I have with this is that I personally find it ugly. Otherwise it seems to be something of a sweet spot.

E30 M3 EVO III
- Seems likely to rise in value. Very cool car. Kinda ugly. Too rare and pricey to really enjoy on the road, so how badly do I want a car that I'll be afraid to drive?

Have you driven E30 M3s? I highly recommend driving one before committing to buying one. E30s are supposedly God's chariots, and the M3 is the "best" of them. However, everything I've heard is that they only really come alive and feel significantly more special than a regular E30 when you're wringing them out. So then the question is, how often are you going to wring it out? Are you going to be afraid of driving it hard because of its value, especially the Evo versions?

I would say E30 M3 values have probably plateaued. That skyrocketing in value happened a few years ago, and they are at price ranges where they aren't necessarily bargain values anymore, and for that same price, you can have a lot of different interesting cars. They did a decent amount of these. I only see their values appreciating in the long run, assuming internal combustion engine personal vehicles still have a place in the world at that time.

E36 M3 Sedan
- Great car. They made fewer of these than the coupe, although the coupe seems to be favored by buyers right now.

M3/4/5, especially in good condition, are rare. Eventually there might be a premium of these over the coupe. Not sure we'll ever see much appreciation just because the E36 generation was the middle child between the "legend" (E30) and the "perfect all-rounder" (E46). Also, US models will always be hampered by the "Not true Motorsport engine, wahhh! Europe got a better version, wahhh!" S52 engine. As a positive, S52 aren't that bad to maintain.

E46 M3 Comp.
- Great car. I love the E46. I even own one. The problem with this one is that I'm not just that in love with this M3. Something about the way the shifter feels kinda bugs me.

I think the Competition will command a premium but trend similar to E46 M3. If you really want a special E46 M3, look at Europe only M3 CSL. Not legal to import until late next decade though.

993 911
- Love it. Seems like tons of maintenance.

Ohhhhhhh air cooled Porsches. I'll address the 993 specifically later.

996 911
- Love it less than the 993, tons of maintenance.

Great values if you don't care about the headlights, and are not super worried about appreciation. Regular models have bottomed out, but unlikely to go up significantly just because of how many there are out there. Turbos have been going up in value. GT3 have been pretty flat, but I think they are bargains for what you get, and with limited production numbers, will eventually start appreciating. GT2 are already stupid money. 996s are less of a maintenance nightmare than you think, and are generally pretty reliable.

997 911
- Awesome car, too new.

997.1 are mechanically fairly similar to 996, so your maintenance won't be significantly less. 997.2 might be the most "reliable" Porsches in modern times.

Lotus Elise
- I should probably put some kind of model or year information here. These don't seem to get love in the collectible category. I think this fits my particular driving style, but honestly I've got my driving style covered with my other cars.

Appreciating, because "they just don't make cars like this anymore".

R34 Skyline
- RHD. Beautiful, I'd love it.

Cannot be permanently imported to US for another few years, with the exception of a few existing Motorex cars. Motorex cars are big money because they are Federally legal. Some in the US now are not legal and I would not play that game. Some folks are buying them in Canada/elsewhere and storing them until they become legal to import to US.

R32 Skyline
- RHD. Beautiful (though not as beautiful as the 34). I'd probably love it.

They are fun, especially when boost comes on. Decent selection of them in the US now.

Cayman 987
- Might not be too new (pricewise). I'm not just loving the exterior.

Cayman 981
- Too new.

Cayman 718
- Way too new.

Boxster
- Convertible.

Only ones that I see appreciating over time are Spyders and GT4s. First couple Spyder generations were interesting cars, but weren't really GT cars. GT4s are supposedly great cars, and will at least hold its value. 981 and on only though. GT and GT based cars are going to be where the money's at. If you're not worried about value, then any Boxster/Cayman should be a wonderful drive.

E39 M5
- Great car. Do I want it more than an M3?

Yes. Well, different. M5 is going to be the more luxury GT car feel. They made a lot of these; around 10k were imported to the US. They are at the weird age where you can pick the high mileage, less well maintained examples for dirt cheap, while basically brand new, time capsule examples are going for stupid money. As an all around daily driver, few cars beat this blend. I have no intentions of ever getting rid of mine.

S2000
- Convertible.

IMO, pricey for clean examples. At a certain price point, you have to think about, what else can I get for the money, and do I really want to spend it on a S2000 or do I want to spend that money on something else?

Ruled out:
Z8
- This doesn't seem like my kind of car. I know that they're loved by the car collection world, but it's not the type that I particularly get. Is it trying to be sporty? Is it trying to be luxury? Is it trying to be showy? It doesn't seem to do any of those badly or particularly well.

It's a retro styled throwback that has decent performance but is really a GT car. Only buy because you like the looks.

The trifecta of "last of the old school" Ferraris:
Ferrari F355
Ferrari 456GT (I've seen these for less than $50k! A V12 Ferrari with a gated shifter!)
Ferrari 550 (These, especially, are going to hit 7 figures in 20-30 years, I'm almost certain. I never understood why people didn't see these as absolutely beautiful when new...as they are starting to now)

This.

F355 will always be hurt by that ridiculous engine out service (mileage AND time based), but has aged amazingly well, and are incredible to look at. 550 is the last all manual V12 front engine grand touring Ferrari built. 575 and 599 can be had with manual, but they are rare, and already command a significant premium. Plus, I think the 550 is the prettiest of the lot. Supposedly maintenance on these are pretty good for a Ferrari. 550 have already been appreciating.

With your budget, look into 360 Challenge Stradale or 430 Scuderia. Very low production numbers and are holding their values really well. More hard edged, racy cars, for the road. Depends on what you want.

I think that the BMW E30 M3 might just be the perfect car except for its looks. It is appreciating steadily, many of them have a ton of miles on them (which means that miles are well tolerated on them from a value perspective). It's very analog and engaged. The 993 hasn't taken off like the M3, and the market for 911s is flooded and continues to get flooded. The 987 Spyder looks like just the sort of car I'd want, except that it's very new, so prices aren't rising. The Spyder is certainly far more attractive to me than the E30 M3.

993 never depreciated to quite the level that the E30 did. The 911 that did exploded in value similar to the E30 was the 964, albeit for different reasons.

--

Air cooled 911s will fundamentally be interesting cars that feel significantly different from what you have and own now, from engine location, to feel, to layout, to the view out. People often hold the 993 as the best because it was the last. To that, I don't know if that's true, every generation has their own unique characteristics and charms about them. There's so much hyperbole and expectation and opinions around the 911 generations. Older 911 owners often complain that the 993 is not as engaging of a drive as earlier cars. While 993 owners may scoff at older 911s that don't have head gaskets (and leak oil), or not having the latest and greatest in engine technology.

One thing Porsche had recognize early on is how difficult the 911 could be; by 1969, they extended the wheelbase to help tame the tail. And it continued on, with wider rear tires. The 964 went from a torsion bar and trailing arms to a coil and trailing arms setup in the rear. The 993 took another step forward and went to a coil and multi-link rear setup. The multi-link setup was intended to tame the rear end even further, but some folks will argue that it dilutes the 911 driving experience.

That era of Porsche was interesting because they were running out of money. The 911 had been around forever, albeit with updates through 1989, before the 964 came along for a few years, and then the 993 for a few more years before transitioning to water cooled cars. 964 was a major step forward from the 911, and the 993 was then an evolutionary step.

Porsche buyers can get really picky. Even within the 993 world, prices can vary wildly. Example, early 95 Carrera 4 cabs are worth the least, but something like a later run widebody Carrera S or 4S could be double that value, just for a later model run with a widebody. Add interesting colors and values go up more. Step up to the Turbo and you're suddenly looking at mid-$100k, and so on. Some of the 993 models won't be appreciating for a while, some have already appreciating, and some will continue to appreciate. You would need to figure out what you want and specifically shop for that.

Even though Porsches are well built, and can tolerate high mileage, there are some issues with every generation that you have to be aware of. Parts and labor can get really expensive very quickly. If you need an engine our service, suddenly, cost is significantly higher. There shouldn't be much that requires engine out, but understand what those are and the other common issues to keep in mind.
 
I think you ruled out the Z4Ms before. On the E36 front, there's the M3 Lightweight which is pretty rare. What about the 1M Coupe?

I do like the R34 idea. I just watched a video comparison of the R34 with the R35. It had me drooling over the R34.

The E36 lightweight always seemed like too much premium purely for rarity. I think the 1M coupe is too new (and kinda ugly).

Allow me to bring this back to ground for a bit...

You mentioned in you original post, "Bonus points for likely to rise in value." How important is that to you? What is your time horizon for the desired appreciation to happen? In the original post, it sounded like it's not a requirement, more merely a nice-to-have. Of course, I understand the desire to not purchase a depreciating asset, however, significant number of posts seem to have a strong monetary appreciation component to them. If a strong appreciation likelihood really is a requirement within our (in)ability to guess where the future market is going, then I suspect that significantly narrows down the choices, and some of what you are otherwise interested in may not get you there.

I think that my car search is confusing to you all (and to me) a little bit because I have so few actual requirements for the car itself. I'm a car enthusiast in probably the purest sense of the word. I loved my Honda accord (4 cyclinder), and if one were parked in front of my house, I'd take it for a spin just to remember. I really like cars, a lot of them. I really enjoy my FX35, and the 330i. And I can hop from the NSX to the MR2 and savor both of them. I've got room for another parking spot, so I'd like to add something to my collection. I'm not even too concerned about what exactly it is, as long as it's fun and interesting. I'm cross shopping Ferraris, M3s, Ford Broncos and Honda CRXs.

That brings us around to money.

I'm not necessarily looking to make money on this car, but it necessarily affects how I look at them. If I buy a Honda CRX for (I have no idea what these really go for because it's so hard to find a really good one), I dunno, $10k? And eat $4k to put it on a lift. That's fine, no problems, I'm happy. But if I could have put an E30 on the same lift and made $100,000... then the CRX looks terribly expensive. For most (all) of the cars I'm seriously considering, the risk of losing money isn't really a big factor. But the other side of the equation is just as important. What will it be worth in 10 years affects what the actual cost of the car is.

So when I look at it that way, the M3 looks $100,000 cheaper than the CRX. And that is why appreciation ends up playing such a big factor. Not because I need it, but because if I could have the M3 instead of the CRX and end up $100,000 healthier, the M3 is the right choice. Honestly I'd probably love either car.


As well, you know how it's going. We don't know for sure which direction the macroeconomic situation is going. Perhaps the only thing that trumps greed is fear. The jury is out on if (and when) a US recession is coming soon, and when it does, I suspect luxury assets like entry collector vehicles that you are looking at will drop in value.

Eh, maybe. I'm not so sure. I'm personally not worried about it, so I imagine that people with 10x as much funding as I am have taken even more steps to ensure that they're well situated for it. If I'd see a recession as a buying opportunity, so would they. And now you see why your concern is hedged a bit. I remember asking this question of another car collector. "Aren't you concerned about electric and self-driving cars tanking the value of most gas powered cars"? His response "if some fantastic cars went down in value because of EVs, I'd just see that as a fantastic buying opportunity".

As of today, I'm 39 years old. My intent is to buy and hold cars that I'll keep until approximately age 70. Beyond if my kids show any interest. So I've got a roughly 30 year time horizon. So I'm considering what the CRX, M3, and Ford Bronco are doing over 30 years. Obviously nobody has a crystal ball, but it's easier to see that than it is to forecast over the next election cycle.

Is one of the primary goals to experience something completely different? Or is something that is very similar to what you already have (say something like a NSX Type R), ok, as long as it meets your other requirements?

Honestly I just want another great car. I don't care if it's similar or different.


How does Colorado treat vehicles that were never sold in the US originally? Would they look up the original MSRP in the home country it was offered in, then convert to USD, or is it based on declared import value, or based on purchase price, or something else?

No idea. I should try to figure that question out.

Have you driven E30 M3s?

Alas, I have not. I've driven the E46 M3 and the E36 M3, and I preferred the E36, even though I'm completely head over heels in love with my E46 330i. So I'm extrapolating that the E30 would be a great car for me, but I do not know this for sure. Also I have no idea how to get seat time in an E30 M3. Test drives of expensive cars can be tricky to obtain. Turo doesn't have any in my area right now.

So then the question is, how often are you going to wring it out? Are you going to be afraid of driving it hard because of its value, especially the Evo versions?

The EVO is almost worthy of like not even registering or insuring for the street and just renting a track to myself for a day of driving. Getting down to the real nitty gritty, I'm pretty busy generally. I don't even have time to really properly thrash the sports cars I have now. Adding another one to the mix isn't going to change that. I'd see time opening up in the future though as my kids get older.

Bottom line, whatever this car ends up being, it'll be lucky to see like 500 miles of driving per year. Let's call half of those "spirited".

I would say E30 M3 values have probably plateaued.

Over the next 30 years there is basically no chance they won't appreciate - even since 2006, inflation is like 25%. 30 years from now I could see EVO prices trading over a million.

That skyrocketing in value happened a few years ago, and they are at price ranges where they aren't necessarily bargain values anymore, and for that same price, you can have a lot of different interesting cars.

Ironically, rising prices is a good thing in my eyes. I like to see that cars have had a run up, even prior to obtaining them. I bought the NSX after its value had risen 50%, and it rose again 50% after. I think it's got a lot more in it too. It's almost a crime that those cars are going for less than 6 figures still. They're all bargains where they sit despite a long run up.

Rising prices means there is market support for the car, and it's a good thing to see before putting money there. That being said, the supra is the obvious counter example where prices have gotten pretty far out of line with what the car actually is. I'm not looking to pile on to that one.

assuming internal combustion engine personal vehicles still have a place in the world at that time.

This is a reason to only get the cream of the crop.


M3/4/5, especially in good condition, are rare. Eventually there might be a premium of these over the coupe. Not sure we'll ever see much appreciation just because the E36 generation was the middle child between the "legend" (E30) and the "perfect all-rounder" (E46). Also, US models will always be hampered by the "Not true Motorsport engine, wahhh! Europe got a better version, wahhh!" S52 engine. As a positive, S52 aren't that bad to maintain.

Might be worth importing.

I think the Competition will command a premium but trend similar to E46 M3. If you really want a special E46 M3, look at Europe only M3 CSL. Not legal to import until late next decade though.

I think the CSL is a bit too far out on my time horizon.


Great values if you don't care about the headlights, and are not super worried about appreciation.

The first is true, I like both styles. The second is not so much true. It's hard to ignore when one costs twice as much because it refuses to appreciate.

Appreciating, because "they just don't make cars like this anymore".

If there is a lotus that's showing a good trend (I'm not aware of it, I thought they all just stayed flat), then I'm interested.

Cannot be permanently imported to US for another few years

I thought that one might be within my time horizon, but looking at the numbers... I think 2024 is just too far out.

This.

F355 will always be hurt by that ridiculous engine out service (mileage AND time based), but has aged amazingly well, and are incredible to look at. 550 is the last all manual V12 front engine grand touring Ferrari built. 575 and 599 can be had with manual, but they are rare, and already command a significant premium. Plus, I think the 550 is the prettiest of the lot. Supposedly maintenance on these are pretty good for a Ferrari. 550 have already been appreciating.

With your budget, look into 360 Challenge Stradale or 430 Scuderia. Very low production numbers and are holding their values really well. More hard edged, racy cars, for the road. Depends on what you want.

Gawd... I just don't know if I can bring myself to pick up a Ferrari. They have such a reputation.

Air cooled 911s will fundamentally be interesting cars that feel significantly different from what you have and own now, from engine location, to feel, to layout, to the view out. People often hold the 993 as the best because it was the last. To that, I don't know if that's true, every generation has their own unique characteristics and charms about them. There's so much hyperbole and expectation and opinions around the 911 generations. Older 911 owners often complain that the 993 is not as engaging of a drive as earlier cars. While 993 owners may scoff at older 911s that don't have head gaskets (and leak oil), or not having the latest and greatest in engine technology.

One thing Porsche had recognize early on is how difficult the 911 could be; by 1969, they extended the wheelbase to help tame the tail. And it continued on, with wider rear tires. The 964 went from a torsion bar and trailing arms to a coil and trailing arms setup in the rear. The 993 took another step forward and went to a coil and multi-link rear setup. The multi-link setup was intended to tame the rear end even further, but some folks will argue that it dilutes the 911 driving experience.

That era of Porsche was interesting because they were running out of money. The 911 had been around forever, albeit with updates through 1989, before the 964 came along for a few years, and then the 993 for a few more years before transitioning to water cooled cars. 964 was a major step forward from the 911, and the 993 was then an evolutionary step.

So here's the 930 vs. the E30.



Spoiler alert, they go for the E30. So, based on what you wrote above the 964 is a big win over the 930. I could see going for any of them, but I like the looks of the later two.


Porsche buyers can get really picky. Even within the 993 world, prices can vary wildly. Example, early 95 Carrera 4 cabs are worth the least, but something like a later run widebody Carrera S or 4S could be double that value, just for a later model run with a widebody. Add interesting colors and values go up more. Step up to the Turbo and you're suddenly looking at mid-$100k, and so on. Some of the 993 models won't be appreciating for a while, some have already appreciating, and some will continue to appreciate. You would need to figure out what you want and specifically shop for that.

This is what concerns me about the 911 world... I just don't know it. They are so picky for such weird reasons. I'd almost certainly end up buying the "wrong" one and having a similar driving experience but "spending" twice as much.
 
It is thee iconic Datsun. Are you opposed to modifications? Swapping out a carb for EFI isnt all that complicated. Even the computers these days will self tune.
 
It is thee iconic Datsun. Are you opposed to modifications? Swapping out a carb for EFI isnt all that complicated. Even the computers these days will self tune.

I don't think I'd do that. If I were going to buy one of those, bone stock is what I'd be after. There is some kind of homologation front end which seems like it would be the one to get. These cars are so rare in good condition that they're basically all rebuilt. Speaks to a lasting fanbase though.

I think I could be happier with something else, but it's certainly on the radar.
 
You've mentioned ford Broncos, what about LR Defenders?

Yea I think that's fair. LR reliability is always a concern, but I suppose when you go back that far it's not so much. Boy is that a crap shoot though. Value doesn't seem to be headed in a particular direction in the last few years either.

https://bringatrailer.com/land-rover/defender/

I guess one thing to point out on the front is that it's harder for me to park. Not impossible, but it has to fit under or on top of one of my lifts. The ceiling height is generous for one of them, so it is certainly possible to fit a lot of car in there. But the defender seems particularly tall. It might push my setup.

Honestly I don't mention the defender or the bronco with a lot of enthusiasm. Because even though it would kinda fill a hole in my lineup, I don't generally get excited about that niche.
 
Yea I think that's fair. LR reliability is always a concern, but I suppose when you go back that far it's not so much. Boy is that a crap shoot though. Value doesn't seem to be headed in a particular direction in the last few years either.

https://bringatrailer.com/land-rover/defender/

I guess one thing to point out on the front is that it's harder for me to park. Not impossible, but it has to fit under or on top of one of my lifts. The ceiling height is generous for one of them, so it is certainly possible to fit a lot of car in there. But the defender seems particularly tall. It might push my setup.
I followed LR for years. Had a Discovery II for a while. The electrical issues were constant that's for sure. And I know the old series trucks had some interesting quarks. I, in fact, would love to get on of the series trucks at some point. But, as far as defenders go, I cant say I heard many people complain of the same reliability issues that seem to plague their other vehicles.
Idk about appreciation (it's honestly never been a consideration of mine when looking for a car) but, there is also a bundle of cool trucks, such as the GM Typhoon and Syclone, that definitely register at least on the more rare scale. And they are far lower than a Defender.
 
I followed LR for years. Had a Discovery II for a while. The electrical issues were constant that's for sure. And I know the old series trucks had some interesting quarks. I, in fact, would love to get on of the series trucks at some point. But, as far as defenders go, I cant say I heard many people complain of the same reliability issues that seem to plague their other vehicles.
Idk about appreciation (it's honestly never been a consideration of mine when looking for a car) but, there is also a bundle of cool trucks, such as the GM Typhoon and Syclone, that definitely register at least on the more rare scale. And they are far lower than a Defender.

Well I'd love to be talked out of considering appreciation, but I can't seem to get my head there. My 330i poses a bit of a problem too, because I can't help but think that despite how much I love that car, it's not worthy of its parking spot. With almost 90k mi and a gazillion produced, and not even the ZHP, its value isn't going anywhere any time soon.

I'm considering ditching it for an M3 SMG. It's on my to-do list to rent an SMG to see whether it's a worthy replacement. If it is, I could at least be confident that the value curve has the right sign. Somehow I can't bear to let that beautiful 330 just sit outside and rust.

Edit: Also possibly an M5 auto (if that existed, I haven't researched it) could replace the 330i. Maybe a DCT porsche could as well.

Anyway, one car at a time perhaps.
 
What do you think about having restorations done then? Buying something like a $10k 60s car and having it restored? In the end you could end up paying 50k for a car that could garner up to 150k
 
What do you think about having restorations done then? Buying something like a $10k 60s car and having it restored? In the end you could end up paying 50k for a car that could garner up to 150k

It's an option! It's just a somewhat risky option which will bring additional scrutiny at resale. I'm not ruling it out though.
 
Right on. I'll be honest, finding people cars is something I've always enjoyed. That is, I enjoy the hunt. Not really into being a sales man. I'll come back at ya later with some more ideas.
Btw, happy b-day. I celebrated my 38th Saturday, my son hit 2 on tuesday, my niece turned 16 yesterday and my grandfather turns, 80 something tomorrow. Not to mention we have had a couple of births in the extended family over the past couple weeks. Oct has become a very birthday heavy month for us. That damn cabin fever....
 
Right on. I'll be honest, finding people cars is something I've always enjoyed. That is, I enjoy the hunt. Not really into being a sales man. I'll come back at ya later with some more ideas.
Btw, happy b-day. I celebrated my 38th Saturday, my son hit 2 on tuesday, my niece turned 16 yesterday and my grandfather turns, 80 something tomorrow. Not to mention we have had a couple of births in the extended family over the past couple weeks. Oct has become a very birthday heavy month for us. That damn cabin fever....

Oh wow, I just realized that it came off as me saying that I turned 39 that day. Sorry for the extremely misleading statement. I turned 39 in August. I meant that more as just a recognition of the passing of time, and how I will be 40 (maybe) before this purchase gets executed.
 
Judging by what I am reading, I think I am going to change my line of recommendations.
What do you think of something more like a Rolls Corniche or Phantom? Or maybe Something like a Bentley Continental or Flying Spur? Though, I am partial to the Brooklands honestly. Maybe something by Aston? I'll admit, I dont know how they appreciate. But, it sounds like what might work is something plush to enjoy a really good, spirited drive on a nice road.
Although, if your roads are anything like ours, maybe the Bronco, or a Ford Cosworth escort with proper rally suspension would be better.

Or get a BRZ and do some autocross days?
 
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I think the E90/E92 M3 has bottomed out, and I think should hold some value as the last naturally aspirated M car.

Other cars to throw out (though the second section is mostly too new):

Classic stuff:
BMW 2800 CS/3.0 CS/3.0 CSL
BMW 2002/2002 tii (above option is probably better)
C1/C2 Corvette
Jaguar XKE
1960s Shelby Mustang
1960s-70s Alfa Romeo GTV or one of the other coupes

More modern stuff:
Aston Martin DB9
C7 Corvette
Cadillac CTS-V
Dodge Viper
Shelby Mustang GT350R
Dodge Challenger Hellcar Redeye
Lexus IS F
 
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Ok, did not realize your time horizon was ~30 years. I was assuming it would be closer to the 3-5 year time frame, and so a lot of my comments revolve around that. Over a long horizon, that's a whole different ballgame.

I'm not necessarily looking to make money on this car, but it necessarily affects how I look at them. If I buy a Honda CRX for (I have no idea what these really go for because it's so hard to find a really good one), I dunno, $10k? And eat $4k to put it on a lift. That's fine, no problems, I'm happy. But if I could have put an E30 on the same lift and made $100,000... then the CRX looks terribly expensive. For most (all) of the cars I'm seriously considering, the risk of losing money isn't really a big factor. But the other side of the equation is just as important. What will it be worth in 10 years affects what the actual cost of the car is.

Understood where you're coming from. I've thought about similar things before. Maximizing the percentage gain is perhaps more of a bonus for you, but one that is pretty high up on the list of bonuses. How are you thinking about opportunity costs driven from the differences in initial investment between different cars (we'll exclude ongoing running costs for simplicity sake)?

Eh, maybe. I'm not so sure. I'm personally not worried about it, so I imagine that people with 10x as much funding as I am have taken even more steps to ensure that they're well situated for it. If I'd see a recession as a buying opportunity, so would they. And now you see why your concern is hedged a bit. I remember asking this question of another car collector. "Aren't you concerned about electric and self-driving cars tanking the value of most gas powered cars"? His response "if some fantastic cars went down in value because of EVs, I'd just see that as a fantastic buying opportunity".

As of today, I'm 39 years old. My intent is to buy and hold cars that I'll keep until approximately age 70. Beyond if my kids show any interest. So I've got a roughly 30 year time horizon. So I'm considering what the CRX, M3, and Ford Bronco are doing over 30 years. Obviously nobody has a crystal ball, but it's easier to see that than it is to forecast over the next election cycle.

Sure, if you are talking long time horizons where you hold the asset through multiple macroeconomic cycles, then like the stock market over the long run, you should be fine. I originally didn't realize you were think that long term.

The car collector's comment about EV cars though. I can only agree with that sentiment if appreciation is secondary, or even tertiary to enjoyment of the vehicle itself or whatever other reason for buying. If values tank because of EVs, and they continue to trend down, it doesn't matter that it's a great buying opportunity, you'll still be losing money.

Also I have no idea how to get seat time in an E30 M3. Test drives of expensive cars can be tricky to obtain. Turo doesn't have any in my area right now.

Indeed can be tricky. Best bet is probably having a friend that owns one. Or you might be able to visit a dealership and test drive one, especially since you are seriously considering purchase one and not just going on a joy ride. Seems fair.

Getting down to the real nitty gritty, I'm pretty busy generally. I don't even have time to really properly thrash the sports cars I have now. Adding another one to the mix isn't going to change that. I'd see time opening up in the future though as my kids get older.

Got it. Keep in mind that track days are often time consuming. Cars generally have to go through a thorough technical inspection every so often to ensure it will be safe on track before you can run it. You'll spend time packing stuff like helmets, tools, etc. before you go. You then have to drive or trailer the car to the race track, which generally are not right in the heart of town. It's usually faster and simpler to just do a spirited drive on the road.

The first is true, I like both styles. The second is not so much true. It's hard to ignore when one costs twice as much because it refuses to appreciate.

I think the 996 GT3 will have its moment in the sun. It is the first 911 GT3, and though might be the least capable when you start comparing against 997 and 991, everything I read is that it still feels the rawest of them all.

Edit: Also possibly an M5 auto (if that existed, I haven't researched it) could replace the 330i. Maybe a DCT porsche could as well.

I think you'll find that the M5 is going to be pretty similar to your 330i, except everything turned up to 11.

M5 was available as a single clutch automated manual starting with E60 generation (2005-2010), and SMG is notorious for having issues. The next generation F10 used a dual clutch transmission. The latest one, F90, uses a true automatic gearbox. E60 and F10 M5 could be had in the US with a 6 speed manual. None of the first three M5 generations was available with an automatic.

400R...it may require import fees...

Anything that hasn't already been permanently imported into the US, you will have to pay import duty on top of any existing transportation and broker fees.

--

A couple cars that I forgot to suggest originally

- Lamborghini Diablo
- 1960s/1970s Alfa Romeo, specifically the Giulia Sprint/GTV/GTA
- Pagoda Mercedes SL

--

This is what concerns me about the 911 world... I just don't know it. They are so picky for such weird reasons. I'd almost certainly end up buying the "wrong" one and having a similar driving experience but "spending" twice as much.

Admittedly, there are a lot of special this and special that over the 50+ years of the 911. But market valuations generally follow that the more limited the edition, the more it's desirable and worth. Manual RWD coupes are going to generally be worth more than automatics and/or open tops (with the exception of Speedsters because of limited runs). Higher the performance of the example, the more desirable it is and the more it's worth (Turbos are worth more than regular naturally aspirated cars, lightweight, RS or Cup cars are top of the food chain in value, etc.). The more original and more of a time capsule a car is, the more it's worth. It's actually not too bad to get a grasp of it.

--

Hearing from a person who's business is to buy and sell old Porsches, one thing he's emphasized is that tastes are fickle. In the 911 world, 20 years ago, no one wanted or liked bright, non-standard colors. Now those colors are all the rage, and can bring a significant premium. When we get to the details of what ends up making a certain car appreciate x and another car appreciate y and another car, not appreciate at all, some of it will end up coming down to what those tastes evolve to.

I recommend you go on Youtube and watch a couple of presentations that PCA and Hagerty put on about the state of the Porsche collector market. It is limited to just Porsche, and is focused more on the near term, however it is interesting and informative, and for me it's relevant. I think there are lessons and nuggets of information that can be extrapolated out to other collector cars, and may be helpful with your decisions.
 
Understood where you're coming from. I've thought about similar things before. Maximizing the percentage gain is perhaps more of a bonus for you, but one that is pretty high up on the list of bonuses. How are you thinking about opportunity costs driven from the differences in initial investment between different cars (we'll exclude ongoing running costs for simplicity sake)?

The "opportunity cost" is part of what drives this, and kudos to you for noticing that I ignored the initial investment in consideration of cost. The short answer to your question is that this money is slated for "property" under the diversification umbrella. So putting it in the stock market is not really on the table. Real estate (or perhaps a REIT) or other tangible property like gold (or perhaps the ETF equivalent) would be on the table but both have been eliminated due to other reasons. So bottom line, this money is intended for cars. :D


If values tank because of EVs, and they continue to trend down, it doesn't matter that it's a great buying opportunity, you'll still be losing money.

I think he was implicitly assuming it would be temporary.

I recommend you go on Youtube and watch a couple of presentations that PCA and Hagerty put on about the state of the Porsche collector market. It is limited to just Porsche, and is focused more on the near term, however it is interesting and informative, and for me it's relevant. I think there are lessons and nuggets of information that can be extrapolated out to other collector cars, and may be helpful with your decisions.

I'll check it out.
 
If you're considering M cars, how about an Alpina? Seen several of them come up for sale on BaT recently, all of which have looked absolutely stunning and from my understanding, all drive wonderfully too.

I drove an E39 M5 yesterday for the first time. Was also my first time driving any E39. I totally get why people rave about E39s now. Came away not necessarily wanting an M5 (it'd be nice, obviously) but wondering whether Alpina ever did the B10 3.3 with a manual transmission. Rack and pinion rather than recirculating ball, revvy inline-six... would be pretty close to E39 perfection I reckon.

But anything Alpina really. Values are difficult to predict. They have rarity on their side, and good, really good BMWs are always going to be worth something to someone. But because they're more under-the-radar than the M stuff, and their image is perhaps classier, I figure it'd be even easier to find genuinely nice ones.
 
If you're considering M cars, how about an Alpina? Seen several of them come up for sale on BaT recently, all of which have looked absolutely stunning and from my understanding, all drive wonderfully too.

I drove an E39 M5 yesterday for the first time. Was also my first time driving any E39. I totally get why people rave about E39s now. Came away not necessarily wanting an M5 (it'd be nice, obviously) but wondering whether Alpina ever did the B10 3.3 with a manual transmission. Rack and pinion rather than recirculating ball, revvy inline-six... would be pretty close to E39 perfection I reckon.

But anything Alpina really. Values are difficult to predict. They have rarity on their side, and good, really good BMWs are always going to be worth something to someone. But because they're more under-the-radar than the M stuff, and their image is perhaps classier, I figure it'd be even easier to find genuinely nice ones.

http://www.fantasycars.com/alpina/b10_v8_-_v8s_e39/

I wonder if that wouldn't be a better solution to my 330i issue actually. An automatic B10 V8s would be probably an excellent replacement for the 330i.

They don't seem to be holding value very well. Granted I don't see a single one from the E39 era there.

Check this out though: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1997-alpina-b6/

Edit:

The other option for replacing the 330i would be to go 911 PDK from like 2005. it still has a back seat, so it pretty much performs the function of the 330i, and I think it might be just as... uh... everyday car. I bet that comes with AWD somehow and I could fit some snow tires or studs on it and go ice racing.
 
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Ok so maybe it should look like this. Replace the 330i with a 997 Carrera 4S PDK like this one ($50k).

And then also one of these ($100k) or the M3 Sport Evo.

I wonder if the 997 PDK would do a better job price wise than my flatlining 330i though. Maybe I should just keep the bimmer because it's not going down. Something tells me I want to do the 2nd car (above) first, and just let the 330i lay where it is for the time being.
 
The B10 V8 was I think the first car that made me aware of Alpina. Any V8 E39 would be lovely, but I had misgivings over the steering feel of the M5 I drove, and it's my understanding all the V8s used the same recirculating ball steering. Suppose it comes down to whether one would derive more enjoyment from an E39 with eight cylinders or one with great steering...

You have a point though. Perhaps a better E46 replacement than fun occasional-use car.
 
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