Here's why the AI can't be good in this game!

[ScouserHUN]

First of all, this game is a racing simulator.

In even circumstances (with same cars for AI and user) you won't be able to beat a good AI in 3-5 laps. It's impossible to beat off at least 10 cars in 15-20 km races in a SIMULATOR game with good AI. -> So why should we have good AI, when you only can win races with BETTER cars? From this point this game in OFFLINE MODE is all about having a better car, or more tuned one then the opposition. -> So why should we need a better AI, if you can only win with better cars anyway?

Offline race is all about beating the time, and not about beating the opposition.

Conclusion: In the case of having a realistic AI people would not be able to win races in even circumstances. Therefore we don't need realistic AI in this game.

This is a SIMULATOR GAME if you want realistic AI be prepared to race for 40-45 laps/track or just be setisfied with what we have now. This game offline is all about beating the clock, not the other cars!

Hope you get what I'm talking about....

 

[Devedander]

Another post that states a theory as if it's some kind of fact.

This is not why we can't have good AI, this is your rationalization of why we can't have good AI. And your rationlization is flimsy becuase you haven't bothered to challenge your own ideas, you have just come up with them and gone with it.

For one thing:

You can't beat good AI. If that's true, you can't beat other good human racers either and every race ends up finishing in the order the grid started.

This is obviously not true.

The problem is you NEED good AI (and prfereably qualifying laps) to have a good race.

The AI in GT is currently setup to allow you to start at the back of the pack and overtake the whole race. This is usually what's considered fun. But it's not necessarily good.

Good AI would race well but also take gambles - gambles that don't pay off sometimes. Good AI would feel the heat of the guy behind him creeping up and push harder to keep the lead which might end up in going off a corner or hitting a wall. Good AI would let a closely matched car pass on a corner knowing it would catch the draft on the next straight and slingshot past. Good AI would fluctuate is the point... so it could be beatable just like people are sometimes beatable.

Currently the AI is set to just brake too early and drive basically slowly in early races to allow you easy overtaking... the solution here with good AI is to have the AI make more mistakes in early races so lesser drivers still have a chance.

And this game is not all about beating the clock. Every time someone says "GT is about ________" they inevitably screw up because GT no one can say what GT is about or even that it's only about one thing. Only Kaz actually knows what GT is about and that is obviously changing all the time... GT wasn't about photomode until it was... it wasn't about online until it was... The argument GT is not about is flawed from the start.

And IF GT WERE about beating the clock only, why would we even have races? It would be a big game of time trials.

There is no reason not to have good AI in GT. Good AI can still be beatable in many ways just like real drivers cna be beatable in many ways.

 

[bambam26]

The points made in both post are true. Although it is a conflict of two different needs of two different kinds of racers. Perfect AI would cause a whole new discussion on them not being beatable by average gamers. While if it was there the gamers who are good racers would see it as a challenge and making them better gamers.

The best option for a happy median, if it is possible to have one. Is a option to set the difficulty of the games AI. Again this would be a massive increase in the game files and could lead to the addition of another disc for the game, not to mention a upload of game data on the PS3. People complained about the time it took to add the 8 GB that was installed on the PS3 for faster load times. At a minimum a 3 tiered difficulty level would take a additional 1 GB of space. Again this is for so called perfect AI.

 

[otago]

Yesterday I finished 5-th in supercars event (High Speed Ring) with 214 hp Mugen Civic from 80-th with first try, next to Zonda R and beat a crap from Veyron.

I think I could get bronze with second try and silver is not impossible.

I tell you, AI in GT5 SUCKS

 

[Exorcet]

Qualification pretty much fixes everything.

be prepared to race for 40-45 laps/track

YES PLEASE, well, except now there's online to do it better.

 

[ScouserHUN]

Here is what I was trying to say. In order to have a realistic AI you need to do qualifying laps and 1+ hour races.

And how do you define realistic AI? I tell you an example:

-You are first time at Monza with a Lancer EVO X and you manage to make a 2.02.000 time. And then you say: "The realistic AI can manage this time I've just run"
-You are after 100 laps at Monza with that Lancer EVO X and You are starting to run 1.58.000 times. And then you say: "The realistic AI can manage this time I've just run"
-Then after 1000 laps you can run 1.56.000 times at Monza with the same car. And then you say: "The realistic AI can manage this time I've just run"

Now you look back 1000 laps earlier and what would you do with AI witch is 6 seconds faster then you. The truth is realistic AI is just a point of view, it depends on your skill level.

Okay I admit, that the AI in GT5 is just dumb, they are doing the same thing over and over again. But the truth is, you can only experience realistic AI online

I'm not saying, that GT5 is about beating the clock, but the A-Spec mode is surely. And what's the point of having a good AI, when you can win races simply with better cars? There's no need to have better AI, because you can always have better cars if you have time to gring the money

Another post that states a theory as if it's some kind of fact.
The problem is you NEED good AI (and prfereably qualifying laps) to have a good race.

 

[e1beatsdotcom]

It is a game designed to sell to millions of people around the world with varying experiences of driving both real life and video games. Ages 8-80. If a totally unskilled player cannot pickup the control for the first time and win a few races, there goes a sale.

 

[Exorcet]

Now you look back 1000 laps earlier and what would you do with AI witch is 6 seconds faster then you. The truth is realistic AI is just a point of view, it depends on your skill level.

Difficulty option and/or AI ability raising with game progression.

In my view, godly AI would only be a problem because GT is a game of progression. To access a lot of the game, you need to win. In my ideal world, Gran Turismo 5 starts you off with a 1031 car garage at the very least. The races are there, and it's up to you to do them or not. Were that the case, I'd have the AI set to infinity and I'd just drive until I became good enough to win.

Same online really, I don't mind being destroyed by better players. It beats lapping ones who are worse.

Okay I admit, that the AI in GT5 is just dumb, they are doing the same thing over and over again. But the truth is, you can only experience realistic AI online

Why online needs more attention, IMO.

 

[Devedander]

Here is what I was trying to say. In order to have a realistic AI you need to do qualifying laps and 1+ hour races.

And how do you define realistic AI? I tell you an example:

-You are first time at Monza with a Lancer EVO X and you manage to make a 2.02.000 time. And then you say: "The realistic AI can manage this time I've just run"
-You are after 100 laps at Monza with that Lancer EVO X and You are starting to run 1.58.000 times. And then you say: "The realistic AI can manage this time I've just run"
-Then after 1000 laps you can run 1.56.000 times at Monza with the same car. And then you say: "The realistic AI can manage this time I've just run"

Now you look back 1000 laps earlier and what would you do with AI witch is 6 seconds faster then you. The truth is realistic AI is just a point of view, it depends on your skill level.

Okay I admit, that the AI in GT5 is just dumb, they are doing the same thing over and over again. But the truth is, you can only experience realistic AI online

I'm not saying, that GT5 is about beating the clock, but the A-Spec mode is surely. And what's the point of having a good AI, when you can win races simply with better cars? There's no need to have better AI, because you can always have better cars if you have time to gring the money

You are confusing Good AI with Infallible AI.

A good place to look for guidance on what's possible for AI is HI. That would be human intelligence.

A driver who can set the record at the Nurb can still be beaten by any number of other drivers... even those with much slowever average times.

And the assumption that it would be impossible for weaker drivers to win is addressed by looking again at reality... poor drivers win races on a regular basis... aginst other poor drivers.

Good AI needs to have an equalizer built in similar to how the AI now does. Currently the AI preidictably brakes earlier and accelerates more slowly as the difficulty is ramped down. Good AI would just be less reliable as difficulty was ramped down just like in real life.

Good AI strives to imitate a real world experience... and yes that does mean sometimes you will be in an race you can't win because that AI is just on it and you can't pass him, just like real life. But it also means that the very next race, or the very next lap, or even the very next corner might be his undoing and then is your chances to beat him, again just like real life.

 

[otago]

And how do you define realistic AI? I tell you an example

Simple: AI which keeps with you all race long.

 

[Spagetti69]

F1 2010 doesn't do a bad job with the AI. Some problems yes but overall quite good.
After the patch I don't know if it's my imagination but the magnet effect on cars seem greatly reduced.
Unless it's a placebo effect lol.

 

[Dapper]

The AI in GT doesn't destroy their tires. They brake in the according area.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

It is a game designed to sell to millions of people around the world with varying experiences of driving both real life and video games. Ages 8-80. If a totally unskilled player cannot pickup the control for the first time and win a few races, there goes a sale.

Quoted for truth!

 

[RWB1213]

First of all, this game is a racing simulator.

In even circumstances (with same cars for AI and user) you won't be able to beat a good AI in 3-5 laps. It's impossible to beat off at least 10 cars in 15-20 km races in a SIMULATOR game with good AI. -> So why should we have good AI, when you only can win races with BETTER cars? From this point this game in OFFLINE MODE is all about having a better car, or more tuned one then the opposition. -> So why should we need a better AI, if you can only win with better cars anyway?

Offline race is all about beating the time, and not about beating the opposition.

Conclusion: In the case of having a realistic AI people would not be able to win races in even circumstances. Therefore we don't need realistic AI in this game.

This is a SIMULATOR GAME if you want realistic AI be prepared to race for 40-45 laps/track or just be setisfied with what we have now. This game offline is all about beating the clock, not the other cars!

Hope you get what I'm talking about....

You haven't thought this through all the way. The game simulates two things . . . the mechanics and physics of driving a car, and through it's AI the act of humans actually driving those cars. The driving physics are fantastic, the AI representation of humans driving cars is absolutely horrific. Humans can be both predictable and unpredictable, cautious and aggressive, nervous and calm . . . the AI in GT5 serves up a bunch of Asimo Honda Robots as the competition. It seems PD has the science down, they need to work on the art, and you need to think about the difference.

 

[Devedander]

Quoted for truth!

It's kind of ironic that while that is ultimately quite true, you will find no shortage of posts on this forum saying "if you don't like it it's just not for you go elsewhere" or "making the game easier would ruin it, you need to earn your victories or get out".

 

[wumpus]

To the OP:

Your logic fails. If what you are saying is true then all games which use a.i. are fundamentally impossible to beat. Take ChessMaster 10. They could have just made all opponent a.i. in that game play at Grand Master level and no average player would ever win.

And PD don't have to program the a.i. to run flawless races. Just that they are aware of the player's vehicle and take precautions to avoid collision is enough really. They should let the player decide the difficulty of a.i. opponents on a 1 to 10 scale setting. Harder difficulty should give higher xp and credits of course.

 

[Tornado]

It's impossible to beat off at least 10 cars in 15-20 km races in a SIMULATOR game with good AI.

Pictured Above:
A Simulator game with very good AI (where "good" means "realistic") with clearly distinct personalities and what was at the time a very advanced physics engine. And obviously there was no difference in the performance of the cars. And the game also was capable of having 15 cars on track. And the typical race length in career mode was 15-20km (the game had a qualifying mode, though career races were only 8 cars).

 

[Devedander]

Pictured Above:
A Simulator game with very good AI (where "good" means "realistic") with clearly distinct personalities and what was at the time a very advanced physics engine. And obviously there was no difference in the performance of the cars. And the game also was capable of having 15 cars on track.

Picture not working...

 

[ken2903]

I think GT lost it when they started to include racing cars alongside road cars. It's called 'the real driving simulator' not 'the real racing simulator'. I think the GT games would be better off without other AI cars. Just give us a heap of tracks and a heap of cars that handle realistically, we can race each other online now if we feel the need. When they figure out an AI system that doesn't have downsyndrome then they could incorporate it into the game. It's a bit late for that now though.

Picture not working...

It's a picture of a white with blue stripes, race spec'd dodge viper with a big 🤬 snake coming out of the roof.

 

[niky]

AI is hit and miss in every major video games. The trick is randomizing AI behavior in a way that feels "natural" without letting on that said "natural" behaviors are an artefact of programming.

I've never seen AI that could do this convincingly. I mean, you can program AI with enough randomizing behavior to make it seem like they're not robots, but the longer you play with them, the more you realize that these "mistakes" are pre-programmed scripts. There is no game wherein you do not reach this point eventually. If there is... it's too short.

And the more randomizing and "humanizing" traits you program into the AI, the less they focus on the basic skill of driving/flying/shooting/fighting that you want them to do well in the game. If anyone here has played with programming PODBots for CS, they'll know this. The more contingency behaviors and "sneaky tricks" (camping spots, back ways, that funny jump to get on that hidden roof) you program into the bots, the worse they get, as they spend less time shooting the player and more time hiding, running and jumping.

Thus the problem: the more "human" the AI... the easier the racing.

The trick is to find the proper balance.

Of course... this has nothing to do with Gran Turismo... where their idea of handicapping is lowering the cornering speeds and top speeds the AI is willing to do... resulting in AI that consistently under-drive in cars with lots of speed or grip, but which are robotlike and annoying difficult to beat in certain cars with terrible balance or little grip.

*Sigh*

 

[Devedander]

I've never seen AI that could do this convincingly. I mean, you can program AI with enough randomizing behavior to make it seem like they're not robots, but the longer you play with them, the more you realize that these "mistakes" are pre-programmed scripts. There is no game wherein you do not reach this point eventually. If there is... it's too short.

It sounds like you are thinking of programing CS bots... in racing it's a littler different and might I even say easier in some ways?

I liked Toca 2/3 AI... it clearly wasn't human but it was good enough to be enjoyable for long perioods of time without being a pushover.

 

[otago]

AI is hit and miss in every major video games.

Forza and PGR AI are almost perfect

That's what I call AI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cVs046uX-Y

 

[niky]

It sounds like you are thinking of programing CS bots... in racing it's a littler different and might I even say easier in some ways?

I liked Toca 2/3 AI... it clearly wasn't human but it was good enough to be enjoyable for long perioods of time without being a pushover.

It's easier, yes, in that you only have one set of waypoints to program instead of a whole gallery of them. But you still have to give the AI random event checks, same as with shooter bots (only this portion is not controlled by waypoint programmers in CS... just the bot writer)... random event: Brake late... random event: Accelerate too early, etcetera... but the mistakes will always be limited to a strict set of behaviors, and the bots will always be within a certain percentage difference of the racing line waypoints.

What I'd like to see is creative waypointing in racing games. Bots mowing grass... Going way wide then diving in unpredictably. Bots driving wet lines in wet weather...

Even better... bots with certain dynamic styles... slow-in, fast-out... Alonso-style (quick turn in then catch), Hamilton-style (varying lines, but always on the edge of grip), etcetera. Not something easy to do inside a video-game with multiple opponents.

 

[Tornado]

That I'd like to see is creative waypointing in racing games. Bots mowing grass... Going way wide then diving in unpredictably. Bots driving wet lines in wet weather...

You know, I've actually seen a lot of this stuff in B-Spec of all places. When the AI meter gots to Hot or Mad or whatever the red is supposed to be, they do all sorts of crazy stuff. Not exactly random, but something that could probably be ported into A-Spec without too much difficulty.

 

[niky]

That would actually be nice. The thing is... is there enough memory left in there after the graphics and physics to have a dozen "Bobs"?

 

[kyleh613]

All I want out of the A.I. is for it to stop ramming into you like you aren't even there, all the god damn time.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

You know, I've actually seen a lot of this stuff in B-Spec of all places. When the AI meter gots to Hot or Mad or whatever the red is supposed to be, they do all sorts of crazy stuff. Not exactly random, but something that could probably be ported into A-Spec without too much difficulty.

Ya, the AI in B-spec are a lot more fun and realistic than in A-spec. When your driver goes hot, he gets really aggressive and starts making mistakes. Even better than that, when your pressuring other cars for position, they start to panic and make mistakes as well. I have actually seen cars spin out in B-spec, never in A-spec. A-spec just feels like a freight train of cars that will only follow the line and always drives perfectly like on rails.

 

[otago]

and always drives perfectly like on rails.

By perfectly you mean like 80-years old? I never seen in any games that AI cars literally dead stuck in every turn.

When I pass Zonda R driving Civic in first moderate bend on High speed ring, the only one thought in my head - WTF?

And people here talking about some very fine details like how close AI reminds humans, while AI in game is just totally broken

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

By perfectly you mean like 80-years old? I never seen in any games that AI cars literally dead stuck in every turn.

When I pass Zonda R driving Civic in first moderate bend on High speed ring, the only one thought in my head - WTF?

And people here talking about some very fine details like how close AI reminds humans, while AI in game is just totally broken

What I mean by perfectly is that they don't make mistakes. Usually you can easily become a faster driver than them in a equally matched car.

 

[otago]

Usually you can easily become a faster driver than them in a equally matched car.

In GT5 AI doesn't drive equal (stock) cars.

Audi A2 1.4 (73 hp) could be faster on straight than my Delta Integrale, and in next event I completely destroyed Supra RZ with Honda Prelude like -8 seconds.

This is completely impossible unless AI cars self adjusting randomly in each race up to 100% of stock power in both directions.

So actually AI car model doesn't mean anything, the only one thing you can be sure - it will pass next turn twice slower than you