Here's why the AI can't be good in this game!

[Exorcet]

So this is what I'm talking about. Let's say, the AI is as fast as you. You and all of tha AI drivers have the very same car. Do you think, that you can win a race in these even circumstances with starting from the 10th place? It is not possible to do it! Maybe you will have luck 1-2 times, but on a long run, you will loose these races.

The problem is in bold.

If the AI is as fast as you, you will need qualification and mutch longer races to do that. But this game is not about this, and to tell the truth it never was. You always start from 10th+ places and you have to win in 3-5 laps.

That's a copout. GT1 had qualification as an integral part. Even if it didn't that wouldn't matter. A racing game should have qualification. It's a part of racing.

1. Create qualification and 40+ lap races witch is as realistic as it can be, with the best AI we have ever seen.
2. Create lesser AI, so in even circumstances the player can win the race in 3-5 laps, and have the possibility to tune the cars, so you can outpower the AI.

I pick option 3, all of the above. Each player turns the knob and gets what they want. Also, overtuning cars is as viable in option 1 as it is in option 2.

 

[Patrocles]

Pictured Above:
A Simulator game with very good AI (where "good" means "realistic") with clearly distinct personalities and what was at the time a very advanced physics engine. And obviously there was no difference in the performance of the cars. And the game also was capable of having 15 cars on track. And the typical race length in career mode was 15-20km (the game had a qualifying mode, though career races were only 8 cars).

I would also put out GTR and GTR2 by SimBin as having good quality AI pilots to race against in their games.

 

[JackC8]

In real-life races, they quite often have different classes of cars on the track at the same time, and the faster cars can certainly overtake a half dozen slower cars in one or two laps, much less three to five. And real-life is about as good of a simulation as you can get.

I've watched YouTube videos of Yamauchi himself driving in races that have different classes of cars running simultaneously. He outbrakes his opponent going into a corner, takes the inside line, and completes the pass. Ironic that he made this a complete joke in the game, as getting between an AI car and it's corner results in the AI car driving straight into you as if it doesn't recognize your existence. I thought the whole point of having a real race car driver at the head of Polyphony Digital was that it would make the game so realistic?

Instead we get AI cars that drive into you, and then continue to drive into you - something that would probably get you banned from just about every track in the world. Probably result in criminal prosecution actually.

Other games - which had one-third as much time in development and were programmed by guys who probably never set foot on a track in their life, have AI cars that are an absolute blast to race against. Start at the back of the pack, use common real-life tactics like outbraking and taking the inside line through corners to work your way up, car-by-car, to the front of the pack; it's addictive and a huge amount of fun.

No excuse here at all. Except that they said screw the AI programming, we'd rather make another 30 Nissan Skylines instead.

 

[m0j0NL]

One other think i find hinky and is really really noticeable in the Kart races.

Every kart has the same acceleration, but 5-6-7 sec into the race here come 1-2 Karts that started behind you launching past, often bumping into their AI brothers at the first turn due to their speed.

Its not a case of drafting where they build up a lot of speed and then they catapult by, its at the frigging start of the race..

 

[dominic280378]

In real-life races, they quite often have different classes of cars on the track at the same time, and the faster cars can certainly overtake a half dozen slower cars in one or two laps, much less three to five. And real-life is about as good of a simulation as you can get.

I've watched YouTube videos of Yamauchi himself driving in races that have different classes of cars running simultaneously. He outbrakes his opponent going into a corner, takes the inside line, and completes the pass. Ironic that he made this a complete joke in the game, as getting between an AI car and it's corner results in the AI car driving straight into you as if it doesn't recognize your existence. I thought the whole point of having a real race car driver at the head of Polyphony Digital was that it would make the game so realistic?

Instead we get AI cars that drive into you, and then continue to drive into you - something that would probably get you banned from just about every track in the world. Probably result in criminal prosecution actually.

Other games - which had one-third as much time in development and were programmed by guys who probably never set foot on a track in their life, have AI cars that are an absolute blast to race against. Start at the back of the pack, use common real-life tactics like outbraking and taking the inside line through corners to work your way up, car-by-car, to the front of the pack; it's addictive and a huge amount of fun.

No excuse here at all. Except that they said screw the AI programming, we'd rather make another 30 Nissan Skylines instead.

Its not the fact that they said screw the AI programming, its just that its not part of their plan. I'm disappointed too, I really expected a lot more from GT5 with regards the racing in single player, but I remembered that this is the way its always been. PD's sole focus is on the driving experience, not racing. I think thats why the online aspects of the game were neglected as well as the AI, its just not their passion. Thankfully they seem to be listening to peoples criticisms of the online so there should be good racing on there if they sort it out, whether the AI issues will be addressed will be interesting to see.

 

[ScouserHUN]

Its not the fact that they said screw the AI programming, its just that its not part of their plan. I'm disappointed too, I really expected a lot more from GT5 with regards the racing in single player, but I remembered that this is the way its always been. PD's sole focus is on the driving experience, not racing. I think thats why the online aspects of the game were neglected as well as the AI, its just not their passion. Thankfully they seem to be listening to peoples criticisms of the online so there should be good racing on there if they sort it out, whether the AI issues will be addressed will be interesting to see.

To tell the truth online play is the best I've ever seen. Okay it could be still better, but playing with 15 friends is great! I'm not talking about the open lobby... I know its bad....

 

[dominic280378]

To tell the truth online play is the best I've ever seen. Okay it could be still better, but playing with 15 friends is great! I'm not talking about the open lobby... I know its bad....

I haven't tried it, but heard some horror stories on here about it,if they implement it correctly it could be incredible. I think the game was in development so long that people expected a lot more from it than they would another game, whereas PD just stuck to their principle of making a pure driving experience. As we can see from the forums thats divided a lot of players!

 

[Devedander]

One other think i find hinky and is really really noticeable in the Kart races.

Every kart has the same acceleration, but 5-6-7 sec into the race here come 1-2 Karts that started behind you launching past, often bumping into their AI brothers at the first turn due to their speed.

Its not a case of drafting where they build up a lot of speed and then they catapult by, its at the frigging start of the race..

Actually I think it might be drafting even at the begining of a race... the kart drafting is ridiculous...

 

[No46_TheDoctor]

Maybe if they had the A-Spec races the same length as the B-Spec races they could afford to have smarter A.I. and give you a fighting chance to do some proper racing.

As it stands you have about 3 laps on average to make up 6-10 places in a race, show me one race in real life where this happens when everyone is using similar cars? (apart from Ayrton Senna in the wet at Donnington many moons ago)

The only enjoyable, realistic race I've had so far is the Extreme/German Touring Car Championship race at the Nurburgring Circuit, I was in the Lexus Prototype car untuned with Hard Racing tyres on, 8 laps of challenging racing, catching the lead BMW with one lap to go and only one realistic passing place at the end of the back straight.

I can see me re-running this race a few times, very enjoyable, more so by the fact that you have 8 laps in which to get into a rhythm and set about catching the leader.

None of this 3 lap sprint rubbish, where you either tune the hell out of your car or throw it up the inside at every corner and hope for the best, thats the biggest dissapointment for me, the length of the A-Spec races.

 

[Biggles]

So this is what I'm talking about. Let's say, the AI is as fast as you. You and all of tha AI drivers have the very same car. Do you think, that you can win a race in these even circumstances with starting from the 10th place? It is not possible to do it! Maybe you will have luck 1-2 times, but on a long run, you will loose these races.

If the AI is as fast as you, you will need qualification and mutch longer races to do that. But this game is not about this, and to tell the truth it never was. You always start from 10th+ places and you have to win in 3-5 laps.

So in this case the devs have 2 options:

1. Create qualification and 40+ lap races witch is as realistic as it can be, with the best AI we have ever seen.
2. Create lesser AI, so in even circumstances the player can win the race in 3-5 laps, and have the possibility to tune the cars, so you can outpower the AI.

The first option would be the dream for a simulation fan, who has the time and skill to practice 1000+ laps on one track to be consistent. But only very small percentage of the players are hardcore fans, so this is not an option for this game.

So, they decided to make lesser AI and everybody can win in 3-5 laps. Of course the AI could be smarter, could look for you and react to the way you are driving. But does it matter? You will always win in the end.

That's why I think the game does not need better AI. Hardcore simulator fans should just survive GT Life and start playing online. That's where the competitiveness comes.

Yes, I don't like games where you're expected to be able to pass 15 cars in three laps. This automatically makes the driving extremely unrealistic. Better, as Exorcet says, to NOT start so far back that the only way to win is to have very slow AI. This can be accomplished by having qualifying, or allowing you to choose your starting position, &/or how many laps to run - all things that many other games include.

The most disturbing thing to me is how many people (GT fanboys) make excuses for these shortcomings based on it being the "GT way". Every professional reviewer, & many, many of the people posting on this forum believe this is something that HAS to change for GT to remain relevant going forward. It's true that you can avoid these problems by playing online with good, clean racers, but it's still not acceptable not to have a good offline mode in a game like GT.

 

[RacingManiac]

Pretty much the only way to make GT AI challenging(aside from they not knowing other line than THE racing line), is to pick similar or slightly under spec car. In like GT-All Star or Historic Cup, I am stuck pretty much with the fastest car I can muster and it was a challenge to win.

Even if you and AI drive the same car, it doesn't mean you can't beat them. Part of the realistic behavior is that real driver don't drive on the limit 100%. They slow down and speed up as needed.

The most annoying aspect with GT(aside from them spinning you out), is they can't carry any speed into a corner, and you had to basically do emergency lane change maneuver if you are following them in...

 

[No46_TheDoctor]

Pretty much the only way to make GT AI challenging(aside from they not knowing other line than THE racing line), is to pick similar or slightly under spec car. In like GT-All Star or Historic Cup, I am stuck pretty much with the fastest car I can muster and it was a challenge to win.

Even if you and AI drive the same car, it doesn't mean you can't beat them. Part of the realistic behavior is that real driver don't drive on the limit 100%. They slow down and speed up as needed.

The most annoying aspect with GT(aside from them spinning you out), is they can't carry any speed into a corner, and you had to basically do emergency lane change maneuver if you are following them in...

There should be more laps per race in the A-Spec events, it's totally unrealistic to overtake 7 or so cars in 3 laps if you want to have decent A.I. or not use an over powered car for the race.

 

[Luminis]

There should be more laps per race in the A-Spec events, it's totally unrealistic to overtake 7 or so cars in 3 laps if you want to have decent A.I. or not use an over powered car for the race.

A decent AI doesn't have to be fast. What sets a good AI apart from a bad AI is what makes them fast or slow.
If there's a believable reason for them being slow, it's a good AI. If they're just underdriving their cars, it's a bad AI.

Good, slow AI: Making loads of mistakes like poweroversteering out of a corner, running wide a lot, missing the racing line and whatnot.

Bad, slow AI: Take a look at GT5.

 

[Devedander]

A decent AI doesn't have to be fast. What sets a good AI apart from a bad AI is what makes them fast or slow.
If there's a believable reason for them being slow, it's a good AI. If they're just underdriving their cars, it's a bad AI.

Good, slow AI: Making loads of mistakes like poweroversteering out of a corner, running wide a lot, missing the racing line and whatnot.

Bad, slow AI: Take a look at GT5.

Clearly it's an oversimplification but one would think they could take the current AI and simply add a random level of error to the throttle and braking inputs so that the AI is constantly having the chances of giving it too much gas or too little brake and vice versa. The wider this random variance and the more likely they set it to actually fall away from the desired norm, the worse the driver will be in a realistic and blieveable way.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Clearly it's an oversimplification but one would think they could take the current AI and simply add a random level of error to the throttle and braking inputs so that the AI is constantly having the chances of giving it too much gas or too little brake and vice versa. The wider this random variance and the more likely they set it to actually fall away from the desired norm, the worse the driver will be in a realistic and blieveable way.

Thats exactly what happens in the first endurance (Grand Valley) race I ran. After the tires went away, the AI was all over the place.

 

[otago]

I would also put out GTR and GTR2 by SimBin as having good quality AI pilots to race against in their games.

Have doubts.

AI in Race Pro is very bad with starts, with a bit of luck you can jump from the last to first place in first 10 seconds.

Slow in turns

 

[AlexGTV]

I somewhat agree with the TS although you should know this game is marketed as "Driving simulator", for good reason, and that means that the behaviour and handling of the cars approach real life.
A racing simulator on the other hand will have the realistic AI you speak of where you'd need to always have qualifications, stricter parameters, and more that a dozen laps.
GTs for what they are marketed for, they deliver is my opinion.

 

[otago]

Let's say the AI can manage 1.58.000 lap times at Monaco with even circumstances. I can manage the same as him, so I say it is realistic. Let's say you only can manage 1.59.500 lap times, you say it's too hard, you will need a better car. And someone can manage 1.56.000 times, and he says it's too easy it's not realistic.

So that's why every racing game has AI difficulty settings, up to 5 levels.

Well, every except GT

 

[Patrocles]

Have doubts.

AI in Race Pro is very bad with starts, with a bit of luck you can jump from the last to first place in first 10 seconds.

Slow in turns

You will note that I did not mention other SimBin games!


Since you brought up RacePro - The AI in RacePro is definitely better than the AI in GT5!

 

[Mr Turismo]

Pictured Above:
A Simulator game with very good AI (where "good" means "realistic") with clearly distinct personalities and what was at the time a very advanced physics engine. And obviously there was no difference in the performance of the cars. And the game also was capable of having 15 cars on track. And the typical race length in career mode was 15-20km (the game had a qualifying mode, though career races were only 8 cars).

This game was GREAT! REALLY cool... played it a loooooooot.

 

[otago]

You will note that I did not mention other SimBin games!

I don't remember GTR, but usually AI in PC simulators sucks with capital S. For sure in LFS and rFactor. Probably budget limitations.

 

[warpspeed2slow]

Have doubts.

AI in Race Pro is very bad with starts, with a bit of luck you can jump from the last to first place in first 10 seconds.

Slow in turns

Race Pro's ai, even with it's problems is better than any GT's.

GTR's a.i. is much better and more adjustable than it's cousin on the 360.

 

[warpspeed2slow]

I don't remember GTR, but usually AI in PC simulators sucks with capital S. For sure in LFS and rFactor. Probably budget limitations.

Live for Speed's is worse than GT5's ai, no doubt. RFactor is both better and worse. In some mods it is much better since they are faster in the turns and you have to qualify to compete. However this is not the case with all it's mods.

 

[otago]

GTR's a.i. is much better and more adjustable than it's cousin on the 360.

Race Pro is X360 Race 07, not GTR.

AI is better than GT5, but driving/physics are not

 

[warpspeed2slow]

Race Pro is X360 Race 07, not GTR.

AI is better than GT5, but driving/physics are not

AI in Race 07 is better than Race Pro's, it is also player adjustable, unlike in Race Pro.

I find the driving physics best in GT5 with production cars. When it comes to race cars, IRacing is the best.

 

[SuperShouden]

GT5 is a simulator, but it's also and RPG. And the AI in B-spec, isn't nearly as good as the AI in A-spec. B-spec AI is constantly making mistakes and spinning out.

 

[McGaRnAgLe]

The AI has been terrible in every single iteration of Gran Turismo. I don't see why anyone is shocked that's still abysmal.

AI drivers in quick cars, high level races basically parking on the apex of some corners is ridiculous, causing you to ram them and throw you off track. Great fun...

 

[No46_TheDoctor]

A decent AI doesn't have to be fast. What sets a good AI apart from a bad AI is what makes them fast or slow.
If there's a believable reason for them being slow, it's a good AI. If they're just underdriving their cars, it's a bad AI.

Good, slow AI: Making loads of mistakes like poweroversteering out of a corner, running wide a lot, missing the racing line and whatnot.

Bad, slow AI: Take a look at GT5.

Not trying to start an arguement, but GT5 does have A.I. that power oversteers, quite alot actually ! I've watched quite alot of replays and seen it happen.

And I've just completed the Laguna Seca Endurance race, and they were leaving tyre marks all over the place ! It was almost like a drift competition !

 

[o9lifted]

Good read.

Just wanted to say; Option one: having a difficoulty option may result in NFS case, where hard where unbeatable unless u had the fastest car in the game, and medium where just hillarius easy. keep the AI as it is, u can allways use a more crapy car then the AI. Option two: set multiply difficoulty on the racers so ull have for an example average, moderate and a fewer numbers of experienced AI drivers on the track. Maybe we wouldnt see every AI pit at the same time in the NASCAR races, and maybe including as written in first post.


GT have never been a ''set-your-difficult'' game and I hope it never will be.

Thank you!

 

[Patrocles]

I don't remember GTR, but usually AI in PC simulators sucks with capital S. For sure in LFS and rFactor. Probably budget limitations.

then you need to get out of your console gamer bubble and play some much better racing games (with much better AI) on the PC!

Race Pro is X360 Race 07, not GTR.

AI is better than GT5, but driving/physics are not

are you comparing RacePro to GT5? I agree with you if you are saying that GT5 physics are better than RacePro. The driving/physics in Race07 and GTR is much much much better than GT5 driving/physics.

I think GT lost it when they started to include racing cars alongside road cars. It's called 'the real driving simulator' not 'the real racing simulator'. I think the GT games would be better off without other AI cars. Just give us a heap of tracks and a heap of cars that handle realistically, we can race each other online now if we feel the need. When they figure out an AI system that doesn't have downsyndrome then they could incorporate it into the game. It's a bit late for that now though.

anyone? when did GT series introduce "racing" into the series?
thanks!