Here's why the AI can't be good in this game!

[Devedander]

Good read.

Just wanted to say; Option one: having a difficoulty option may result in NFS case, where hard where unbeatable unless u had the fastest car in the game, and medium where just hillarius easy. keep the AI as it is, u can allways use a more crapy car then the AI. Option two: set multiply difficoulty on the racers so ull have for an example average, moderate and a fewer numbers of experienced AI drivers on the track. Maybe we wouldnt see every AI pit at the same time in the NASCAR races, and maybe including as written in first post.


GT have never been a ''set-your-difficult'' game and I hope it never will be.

Thank you!

So don't introduce difficulty settings becuase they might do it wrong... how is that ever a legitimate argument?

And hard might be so hard you can't win some races without the fastest car... so you mean like it is right now where many of the events require some of the best cars out there just to stand a chance?

And then medium might be too easy? Yet you say right now if you find a race too easy choose an underpowered car... why doesn't that apply if medium is too easy then?

GT never had a photo mode... a lot of people were against it when it came out too... the "never been about" argument should be permanently banned from use as it carries no logical merrit. GT was never about weather, day night transition, karting, NASCAR... that argument is just pointless and always pulled out to defend a baseless argument.

 

[otago]

are you comparing RacePro to GT5? I agree with you if you are saying that GT5 physics are better than RacePro. The driving/physics in Race07 and GTR is much much much better than GT5 driving/physics.

Sounds very contradictory cause there is no any difference between Race 07 and Race Pro (except improved graphics in Race Pro).

Race 07 sucks cause the only thing what cars do - undesteer. That's all. With a couple exceptions like Caterhem.

Maybe that's what FIA GT cars do in real life, maybe not - nobody has no idea how do they drive

then you need to get out of your console gamer bubble and play some much better racing games (with much better AI) on the PC!

Well, I bought consoles with sole purpose: finally to play some good racing games cause I got tired with all this PC share-ware trash.

Honestly the last very good PC racing games were NFS 5 and Rally Trophy. I also kind of like GTL. That's it.

There were a couple decent ports from consoles like RBR and NFS Shift

I remember in Forza 2 I was chasing two Porsches on Laguna Seca driving GT3, like for three laps, always keeping close, sometimes at car length, but couldn't pass.

On forth lap those two AI guys crashed into each other inside corkscrew and I took the first place. That was epic!

Though I was probably too excited cause one of them overtook me during the fifth lap. LOL

Good AI is a good thing to have in racing games.

 

[gambleboyen]

Good AI is AI which acts approximately like human drivers.

 

[RedBaron]

Good AI is in the first place the AI that uses the same physics like you. Knowing they hold on the pavement like 5 ton concrete block and can't be unsettled by even huge impact, they just don't play the same game as you are. Like every other GT since nineties...

 

[Morsolo]

The AI doesn't have to be realistic as much as it needs to be "personified".

First step that Polyphony must take is actually getting the AI to recognize where you are on the track. After that though, any path they take can only improve the experience. For one, if I am showing "balls of steel" and tailgate the AI all the way up to a hairpin, the AI should get twitchy and swerve out of the way before braking, or go straight into the sandtrap.

If I'm racing alongside someone and ram into them, trading some paint, they should back down. Or, perhaps, shunt me back. If I push someone off the track, they should get angry and once/if they catch up, begin trying to sabotage my own efforts.

Perhaps there might just be an angry guy on the grid who feels like ramming me first for no reason at all.

I'm overemphasizing a bit, because in a real race, racers wouldn't be ramming eachother. But a good AI would be about pushing the rules and regulations to its limits, forcing people to outbrake eachother, seeing howlong each drivers can hold off before turning or slamming their brakes.

Also, I think it was how SHIFT's AI was designed (or perhaps I'm thinking of GRID)... But, if you were to stop your car and just watch, it would look like a race is going on all by itself in front of you. In GT5, if you stop your car, it will just be a line of zombies.

 

[dominic280378]

The AI doesn't have to be realistic as much as it needs to be "personified".

First step that Polyphony must take is actually getting the AI to recognize where you are on the track. After that though, any path they take can only improve the experience. For one, if I am showing "balls of steel" and tailgate the AI all the way up to a hairpin, the AI should get twitchy and swerve out of the way before braking, or go straight into the sandtrap.

If I'm racing alongside someone and ram into them, trading some paint, they should back down. Or, perhaps, shunt me back. If I push someone off the track, they should get angry and once/if they catch up, begin trying to sabotage my own efforts.

Perhaps there might just be an angry guy on the grid who feels like ramming me first for no reason at all.

I'm overemphasizing a bit, because in a real race, racers wouldn't be ramming eachother. But a good AI would be about pushing the rules and regulations to its limits, forcing people to outbrake eachother, seeing howlong each drivers can hold off before turning or slamming their brakes.

Also, I think it was how SHIFT's AI was designed (or perhaps I'm thinking of GRID)... But, if you were to stop your car and just watch, it would look like a race is going on all by itself in front of you. In GT5, if you stop your car, it will just be a line of zombies.

Pretty good analysis of the situation. Theres only two possible reasons why the AI hasn't advanced in the GT series:
1) Its just not what PD care about
2) Its too technically demanding considering the strain GT is already putting on the system

Personally I think its more 1) than 2), GT has always been about the driving experience than the racing experience. I don't think its really acceptable with todays hardware to not have a genuine driving and racing experience, but thats just my opinion.

 

[Least Resistanc]

I agree, mainly, with the top poster. The aim in GT5 races is to beat the opposition from the back of the grid in a small number of laps. To this extent the actual nature of the challenge is more like a time trial, though one where to have to dodge the A.I. cars.

An insistance on qualifying for harder races could have sorted this out. 4 or 5 laps is fine if you start, say, 2nd, and spend the whole race attempting to pass 1st place A.I. without putting either yourself or both of you into the gravel. However, this just doesn't happen, even in matched cars the A.I. brakes early, takes conservative lines, lacks controlled agression for passing. As racign drivers they are rubbish, but as has been pointed out, razor-edge competitive opponents are not actually what the game needs or wants in most situations.

I'm loving GT5, but I'm not online and I do sometimes wish for an actual race, something which the game only supplies if you st yourself strong car resitrctions. The A.I. is better than it was, though - as an example compared to GT4, if your car has a slow straight line speed it's now hard to block the A.I. on the straights, they dodge and weave to get by, they show some determination. In GT4 they'd just line up behind you (if they didn't shunt you hard in the boot).

 

[Gran_Turismo]

First of all, this game is a racing simulator.

In even circumstances (with same cars for AI and user) you won't be able to beat a good AI in 3-5 laps. It's impossible to beat off at least 10 cars in 15-20 km races in a SIMULATOR game with good AI. -> So why should we have good AI, when you only can win races with BETTER cars? From this point this game in OFFLINE MODE is all about having a better car, or more tuned one then the opposition. -> So why should we need a better AI, if you can only win with better cars anyway?

Offline race is all about beating the time, and not about beating the opposition.

Conclusion: In the case of having a realistic AI people would not be able to win races in even circumstances. Therefore we don't need realistic AI in this game.

This is a SIMULATOR GAME if you want realistic AI be prepared to race for 40-45 laps/track or just be setisfied with what we have now. This game offline is all about beating the clock, not the other cars!

Hope you get what I'm talking about....

I dont' think that is what people were talking about. I think its the fact that the A.I. isn't "human" enough. They usually don't react quick enough to conflicting situations probably, like a real racer usually would. Such as when you are trying to pass the A.I. and are doing it very quickly and closely to them, or when you are slowed down in front of the A.I. and they are coming from behind at a high speed, they usually don't have enough time or room to avoid you or slow down fast enough, but one thing is for sure that has no good excuse is that the A.I. will simply NEVER fully stop for you unless you stop them yourself (a design choice that PD needs to get rid of).

These are things that are suppose to be handle by the PS3's CPU which PD hasn't taken full advantage of.

 

[Patrocles]

Sounds very contradictory cause there is no any difference between Race 07 and Race Pro (except improved graphics in Race Pro).

Race 07 sucks cause the only thing what cars do - undesteer. That's all. With a couple exceptions like Caterhem.

Maybe that's what FIA GT cars do in real life, maybe not - nobody has no idea how do they drive



Well, I bought consoles with sole purpose: finally to play some good racing games cause I got tired with all this PC share-ware trash.

Honestly the last very good PC racing games were NFS 5 and Rally Trophy. I also kind of like GTL. That's it.

There were a couple decent ports from consoles like RBR and NFS Shift

I remember in Forza 2 I was chasing two Porsches on Laguna Seca driving GT3, like for three laps, always keeping close, sometimes at car length, but couldn't pass.

On forth lap those two AI guys crashed into each other inside corkscrew and I took the first place. That was epic!

Though I was probably too excited cause one of them overtook me during the fifth lap. LOL

Good AI is a good thing to have in racing games.

Not contradictory at all, mon frere! Race07 physics are better than RacePro. Try them out.


Are you joking in saying NFS5 is the best PC racing game?!?! surely thou jest?

 

[Abriael]

While the AI isn't perfect, it's pretty much on par with what I've seen in other console driving games, especially considering that the traffic is higher (12 cars).

I have to get a chuckle at the ones that say that the AI doesn't recognize your presence on the track. Really? Have you actually tested it? Or you're going only by that stupid (and intentionally rigged) Gt5 vs Forza 3 comparison video on youtube?
You seem not to have noticed the simple detail that if the AI didn't recognize your presence on the track, no car would even be able to overtake you.

In 99% of the situations the AI DOES recognize your presence on the track, and will swerve to try and avoid you. Most of the time it will manage, sometimes due to several conditions (lack of grip, speed, narrow track...) it won't. I've been testing it for a while now.

And when it won't, most of the times it'll be your fault, either you invaded it's line in a way that would get you a crash (and/or a black flag) in real racing, or you braked too early, and so forth.

This is not to say that there's no room for improvement, but the AI complaints are seriously getting unrealistic.

 

[dominic280378]

While the AI isn't perfect, it's pretty much on par with what I've seen in other console driving games, especially considering that the traffic is higher (12 cars).

I have to get a chuckle at the ones that say that the AI doesn't recognize your presence on the track. Really? Have you actually tested it? Or you're going only by that stupid (and intentionally rigged) Gt5 vs Forza 3 comparison video on youtube?
You seem not to have noticed the simple detail that if the AI didn't recognize your presence on the track, no car would even be able to overtake you.

In 99% of the situations the AI DOES recognize your presence on the track, and will swerve to try and avoid you. Most of the time it will manage, sometimes due to several conditions (lack of grip, speed, narrow track...) it won't. I've been testing it for a while now.

And when it won't, most of the times it'll be your fault, either you invaded it's line in a way that would get you a crash (and/or a black flag) in real racing, or you braked too early, and so forth.

This is not to say that there's no room for improvement, but the AI complaints are seriously getting unrealistic.

Can I ask how you tested the AI in GT5?

 

[Luminis]

Not trying to start an arguement, but GT5 does have A.I. that power oversteers, quite alot actually ! I've watched quite alot of replays and seen it happen.

And I've just completed the Laguna Seca Endurance race, and they were leaving tyre marks all over the place ! It was almost like a drift competition !

Yeah, it does happen, the thing is, it's not what makes them slow or not. It may happen, but it's not happening more often in the early races where the AI drivers are supposed to be rookies (much like you are, from a career standpoint, when starting out in GT Life) than in the more advanced ones. quite the opposite, actually. That's what I experienced so far, at least.

 

[Tweetman_277]

Even better... bots with certain dynamic styles... slow-in, fast-out... Alonso-style (quick turn in then catch), Hamilton-style (varying lines, but always on the edge of grip), etcetera. Not something easy to do inside a video-game with multiple opponents.

Wow that made me happy!!! I drive Like a World Champion!!! Like a spanish one... :-S

But the AI is atrange. The best ive ever seen is Evoloution GT, you only got one sort of car in each race. But ive been Blocked, Clever Feint Drafting overtakes and all sorts, ive had AI brake Unbelievably late into corners and just not manage to catch themselves, and spin out into everyones way after a single wheel hits the grass. You could make people feel the pressure, and they would drive erratically after this. Ive seen them do all this and more to me, AND EACH OTHER to get the lead... If this AI doesn't rock then i dont know what would..

 

[7HO]

While the AI isn't perfect, it's pretty much on par with what I've seen in other console driving games, especially considering that the traffic is higher (12 cars).

I have to get a chuckle at the ones that say that the AI doesn't recognize your presence on the track. Really? Have you actually tested it?

I've been testing it for a while now.
In 99% of the situations the AI DOES recognize your presence on the track, and will swerve to try and avoid you....

but the AI complaints are seriously getting unrealistic.

You can't be serious. Examples of better AI have already been posted in this thread.

99%? How did you arrive at that figure?

Of course we have all tested it, it is called playing A spec. How do I know the AI is terrible? They keep running into me!

How have you tested it? Do you park a car on a track and see if they go around you like the silly videos? How does that kind of test demonstrate how the AI recognise your presence in a race?

If all you do is drive a super powerful car and get to first position by the first corner there is no way of knowing how good the AI is, have you tried racing with slower cars that make a race more challenging? If you haven't here is a test for you, get a car that is even with the AI, get just in front of an AI car and take a corner so that your exist speed isn't ideal, notice what happens. The AI will run straight into you instead of doing what a human would do and try to pass. And when AI does hit you do they back off? No way, they keep on pushing you until you straighten or spin.

In a real race if I go into a corner too hot to try and pass and I make the pass my competitor with his superior line and exit speed will simply drive around me after the exit or if I have blocked his line he will brake, in GT5 I am going to get hit.

The only place that AI mostly recognises your presence on a track is on a long straight, lets examine how good the AI is in this situation. The test is a one make race, you get great exit speed coming onto the straight, you can barely see the AI in your mirror but by half way down the straight the AI will pass you like you are standing still? Really? OK I will pretend I am that bad a driver so lets try blocking and see what happens. I block the AI and he runs into me most of the time, eventually he hits the anchors, he washes off a lot of speed and drops back, but wait a moment later he has enough speed to pass me almost as quick as before. I know the AI doesn't have a more powerful car because he was unable to pull away from me when I was behind him so either we must concede that he has a lean out button, he has a small nitrous shot that never runs out or he isn't realistic.

 

[o9lifted]

I vote for no option of dificulty. If so set the different difficulty to each AI driver. I guess u could see some action on the track if so. Since they all have their ''random'' names they could been given random phsyicals like some would be dumb, some would be aggresive etc. some would be notorious driver some would been wreckless driver some would be like our driver BOB.

 

[otago]

Sometimes GT5 AI seems good, yesterday I had good race in British lightweight, London. Tight from start to finish.

But much more often it passing you on straights and stuck inside every turn

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I cant believe part of this OP.

ALL racing is about WINNING the race.

Times are for qualifying and, to judge if you are fast enough to win the race.

In GT4 this was all handled by the A-spec point system.
If you wanted a harder race, just up your A-spec points.
It was not always as consistent as it should have been but, a great way to increase the difficulty.

Attention to detail in the game helps as well.

With competitive AI you need qualifying and on screen car adjustments.
Thats why they have it in real racing.
Something mysteriously absent in GT5.

 

[Biggles]

And when it won't, most of the times it'll be your fault, either you invaded it's line in a way that would get you a crash (and/or a black flag) in real racing, or you braked too early, and so forth.

My own favourite experience was racing the Ferrari 512B. I ended up with another 512B in front of me & 512B behind me going into a hairpin. I carefully braked in order to avoid rear-ending the 512B in front which braked unaccountably early & then promptly got rear-ended by the 512B behind me! Doesn't matter what you do.!

Of all the PS3 racing games I've played - F1CE, FC, Shift, SCC, F12010 - GT seems to have the most oblivious AI. Both SCC & Shift had pretty terrible AI, with a tendency to plow intro each other in a most ridiculous way, but even they seemed to exhibit some kind of awareness of what you were doing on the track. GT5's AI barely responds at all to your presence - which becomes very, very annoying as you're forced to grind your way through A Spec races.

 

[Morsolo]

I'll tell you a game with AI that should be the benchmark.

Burnout Paradise.

Yes, I know it's an arcade and rah rah rah, but the AI is unbelievable in it. They know exactly how to get you, based on the finish line and a predicted course that you'd take, they know when to hit you, whether it be just before a busy intersection, or shunting you to the left, into the concrete divider in the highway.

If you're driving one of the really heavy cars (eg. Team Burnout Van) the opponents in small cars know to stay away from you, but sometimes one might get cocky and try to ram you off the road anyway... and sometimes it is so unexpected that they do.

Consequently, the new Need for Speed also has awesome AI (same developer). I just don't see what excuse PD has to neglecting the AI so much. Having really good AI does not bog down the processor any more (much more) than having dumb AI, because it is still making calculations anyway. It might be more expensive, in the form of hiring more people on the team, but one or two people isn't much relative to the sales.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

How about B-spec bob. Man, your AI is horrible. Always brakes way to early, loses position frequently on corners.

 

[Morsolo]

How about B-spec bob. Man, your AI is horrible. Always brakes way to early, loses position frequently on corners.

I was thinking the other day, why couldn't Polyphony make ALL the AI the same as Bob? It would certainly seem more realistic, even if they were still slow.

 

[MrGrado]

There is a problem with AI colliding with you but overall AI is far improved from GT4. The annoying early breaking from GT4 is gone and thankfully GT5 can be patched. Like most of the game the AI feels 1/2 finished.

 

[dominic280378]

I'll tell you a game with AI that should be the benchmark.

Burnout Paradise.

Yes, I know it's an arcade and rah rah rah, but the AI is unbelievable in it. They know exactly how to get you, based on the finish line and a predicted course that you'd take, they know when to hit you, whether it be just before a busy intersection, or shunting you to the left, into the concrete divider in the highway.

If you're driving one of the really heavy cars (eg. Team Burnout Van) the opponents in small cars know to stay away from you, but sometimes one might get cocky and try to ram you off the road anyway... and sometimes it is so unexpected that they do.

Consequently, the new Need for Speed also has awesome AI (same developer). I just don't see what excuse PD has to neglecting the AI so much. Having really good AI does not bog down the processor any more (much more) than having dumb AI, because it is still making calculations anyway. It might be more expensive, in the form of hiring more people on the team, but one or two people isn't much relative to the sales.

PD's excuse is that producing a realistic racing experience is not their concern, and it never has been. Since the first game they've been honing the driving experience and sort of neglected other areas of motor sport that a lot of people would like to see brought into the series.

 

[Imari]

I really think most of the problem with the AI in GT5 is that they tried to have one AI for all types of cars. An LMP car is just too different to be driven in the same way as a Prius. Even for a real person, experience racing a Prius for the most part does not translate to racing an LMP, it's just too different.

What PD really needed to do was make several different kinds of AI for different kinds of cars. MX5 class, M3 class, 430 class, Enzo class, NASCAR, rally, LMP, F1/fancar, all of these should have their own AI.

Admittedly, this requires much more work. But why such a high budget game tries to save money by skimping on such things is beyond me.

 

[dominic280378]

I really think most of the problem with the AI in GT5 is that they tried to have one AI for all types of cars. An LMP car is just too different to be driven in the same way as a Prius. Even for a real person, experience racing a Prius for the most part does not translate to racing an LMP, it's just too different.

What PD really needed to do was make several different kinds of AI for different kinds of cars. MX5 class, M3 class, 430 class, Enzo class, NASCAR, rally, LMP, F1/fancar, all of these should have their own AI.

Admittedly, this requires much more work. But why such a high budget game tries to save money by skimping on such things is beyond me.

I don't think it they were skimping on money or time, it just something they ignored, as its not part of their plan for the series. I think you are right about them having one AI model for all cars type, that could explain the AI drivers braking at seemingly random spots i.e if the AI was developed for driving high power cars it "thinks" the braking points are the same when its driving lower power cars.
Its an area they have ignored, as all they want is to hone the driving experience, thats all they've ever wanted. maybe now they know we're not happy they'll change it.

 

[BradKinder]

I don't need to read this thread. This is a computer simulation. They could make the cpu players run perfect laps unattainable by any human. Instead, they make them do fun stuff like drive slow, mess up, change their driving, and react to stuff.

 

[ccmar]

It's a shame because it's my only big complaint, the rest of the game is just great but the AI has been kinda killing the game for me. What's the point of collecting cars and tuning them if you can't take them to a fun and enjoyable race ?

I just fail to see how 'racing' with a bunch of drones following the same line is fun. They never spin out, always ram you when you mess up or try to make a pass, feel like blocks of cement when you hit them and worst of all, every race has the token '10 seconds ahead of everyone' car (probably picked randomly in the line up), which makes me feel I am playing f-zero or some other nintendo game.
Grid for example had great AI in my opinion, had a much more human feeling than this, sometimes messing up and most of time reacting to you which made the races FUN.

As for people arguing that it wasn't PD's main concern, there is no excuse as to why a game with so many single player racing events would have such a ridiculously stupid and scripted AI. They knew that people would buy the game anyway (hell I did too). It's just lazy programming, plain and simple. I can't say I was expecting it to be revolutionary given the AI in the previous GTs but after 6 years of development you can hope for some change in the formula. Not in PD's case I guess.

 

[TankAss95]

I remember back a few weeks when I raced my tuned Mazda rx8 around the Nurburgring in arcade mode. The car was around 400 hp. The race was on the hardest setting (expert?) and I was up against bugatti verons, mclaren f1s, vw nardos, etc. It was a rolling start and because I was up against 15 other opponents I had a considerable distance to catch up with the lead. I raced clean, although it is hard to overtake on this track I had very little contact and even waited behind cars for the correct opertunity to pass. I managed to win that race by over 10 seconds (I cannot remember the correct time). So that just shows you how slow the A.I is in GT5.

 

[Energizerrr]

OP got it.
Best point about poor AI by far.

 

[Sele1981]

It is a game designed to sell to millions of people around the world with varying experiences of driving both real life and video games. Ages 8-80. If a totally unskilled player cannot pickup the control for the first time and win a few races, there goes a sale.

Thats a good point 👍

BUT! Take a look at Forza 3 and you can see how to solve this problem. Put in 3 different difficulty settings for the AI and satisfy every player 👍

I enjoy the races with the AI in FM3! They act incredibly good for AI cars, they fight for their positions, they overtake you, they fight with other AI cars... Forza also does not allow you to race with an F1 car in an low-class event...

As we can see, it is possible to satisfy 10 million racing fans