Here's why the AI can't be good in this game!

[Tornado]

That would actually be nice. The thing is... is there enough memory left in there after the graphics and physics to have a dozen "Bobs"?

I don't mean just Bob does it. I mean all of the AI does it in B-Spec. They all run on the same type of meter that Bob does, and they make similar freak-out mistakes as Bob does when their meter goes deep into the red. As xNEVER-ONEx said, in B-Spec the AI does stuff like get on the throttle too early, spin out FR cars, have little off-track excursions, over-correct drifts and get snap oversteer, etc. The whole works.

But in A-Spec, they are more or less the same as they were in GT4.

 

[Antonisbob]

Yeah, this is true, I can see what he means. But still this is no excuse for the AI spinnig you out and treating it like a bumpercar race.

ALSO:

It's impossible to beat off

I lol'd.

 

[ScouserHUN]

Okay, then I'm goint to ask a Question:

Why would you need a realistic AI in a game, where you can win races by simply having better car then the opposition?

 

[Wuestenmaus]

So why should we need a better AI, if you can only win with better cars anyway?

illogical

Offline race is all about beating the time, and not about beating the opposition.

illogical

In the case of having a realistic AI people would not be able to win races in even circumstances. Therefore we don't need realistic AI in this game.

illogical

 

[ScouserInExile]

Okay, then I'm goint to ask a Question:

Why would you need a realistic AI in a game, where you can win races by simply having better car then the opposition?

This is two seperate issues here.

The problem of being able to blow the opposition away with a hugely powerful car is a flaw in the design of the game. It should either restrict you in some way, in order to bring you down to the level of the rest of the field, or it should raise the level of the opposition to something matching yours. I vaguely remember the Arcade mode of one of the previous titles did this - it would try to match the car you brought to any race.

The AI thing is a different matter - at the moment, the CPU cars pretty much just follow the racing line and adjust their speed, braking etc. dependant on how "hard" the race is. This is done to create a difficulty curve in the game (which is an essential component of making the game "fun" to play). The problem is that, in doing this, they don't react in any way to what is going on around them or, more to the point, what you are doing. They don't jockey for position with you, they don't try to avoid slamming into you if you are on the racing line that they want, they won't try to dart around you if you brake too hard, they just seem to follow the preset instructions for getting around the circuit - all of this takes a lot of the fun out of competing against them and, at times, makes it so that you may as well just make the races time trials and not bother with the opposition at all.

Edit:
Oh, and half the point of having AI is that they will make mistakes as often as a real person, so saying that "having decent AI would make the game impossible to beat" actually contradicts itself. If anything, it would make it easier to beat when you are matched against equal cars, since it would just be your skill against theirs (assuming, obviously, that there are different levels of AI and the CPU drivers aren't permanently set to "Stig").

 

[Imari]

Okay, then I'm goint to ask a Question:

Why would you need a realistic AI in a game, where you can win races by simply having better car then the opposition?

So that it's possible to have a close race with the AI if you want. You can always destroy them with a better car, that's neither here nor there. Some people don't wish to, and find that boring. They wish to take a relatively equivalent car and be challenged by the AI.

Is that not something that would be pleasant?

 

[ScouserHUN]

I said it would be impossible to beat a realistic AI in 3-5 lap races. Ant it's true!

 

[ScouserInExile]

I said it would be impossible to beat a realistic AI in 3-5 lap races. Ant it's true!

That's not true at all. It depends entirely on how good a driver the AI is, not how realistic it is. If it drove like I do, it would be realistic, but the vast majority of people would easily beat it.

 

[opladener]

And how do you define realistic AI?

I'd be perfectly happy with AI that doesn't PIT me every other corner.
As for pure speed, you could either have a difficulty setting or AI that adapts to your speed. NASCAR 2003 had that, difficulty percentage would go up or down, depending on your performance.

 

[ScouserHUN]

That's not true at all. It depends entirely on how good a driver the AI is, not how realistic it is. If it drove like I do, it would be realistic, but the vast majority of people would easily beat it.

Finally you are starting to see the point. It is very subjetive what a good, realistic AI is. How does a game developer decide what is realistic?

Let's say the AI can manage 1.58.000 lap times at Monaco with even circumstances. I can manage the same as him, so I say it is realistic. Let's say you only can manage 1.59.500 lap times, you say it's too hard, you will need a better car. And someone can manage 1.56.000 times, and he says it's too easy it's not realistic.

I say a realistic AI can manage the best times possible, but it's not a good thing from a gamers point of view. That's why it's realistic, because it's like how the best drivers in the world would drive.

Of course I admit, that the AI is dumb in this game, because it's just doing the same thing over and over again. But this thread is not about this.

There would be 3 types of players playing the game:
1. Who can beat the realistic AI
2. Who is as good as the realistic AI
3. Who is worse then the realistic AI (this would be most of us)

I think we just want more competitiveness in this game. But what would happen if the AI were competitive and you could not win the race you want? You would tone your car, so you can easilybeat it. And from this point, there is no need to have realistic AI, because if you can't beat it in even circumstances, you will outpower it.

Maybe most of us would try for the 100th time to win the race on theese boards, but we are minority. People who buy this game want to win, and they want it quickly. They don't need realistic AI, they need wins, and they want a Platinum trophy as soon as possible.

So, I think there's no need for better AI, till you can outpower it soo easily.

And hey man? Why are you in Exile? Away from home?

 

[ScouserHUN]

I'd be perfectly happy with AI that doesn't PIT me every other corner.
As for pure speed, you could either have a difficulty setting or AI that adapts to your speed. NASCAR 2003 had that, difficulty percentage would go up or down, depending on your performance.

If the computer adapts to your speed (no matter how good his car is) then this game would not be a simulator anymore.

 

[Fastlap]

It's impossible to beat off....

Pervert....

 

[m0j0NL]

In Forza 3 i always thought it was nice that when i #2 or #3 in the race and i would spin out on the track, the AI would even go through the grass, or you`d see a lot of smoke coming from their wheels because of the sudden braking, but they would almost never hit you.

They would put all effort into going around you.


GT+Forza`s AI and Customizing?, perfect game.

 

[Minardi]

Being a console race gamer since PS1 I have seen quite a lot of games with reasonable AI, the gran turismo series are not in that list. I consider the AI of Superstars V8 (Next Challenge) one of the best I have encountered in a race game. Besides qualify, when they enter the track they sometimes don't 'see' you. But for the rest, amazing stuff. SSV8NC has 4 difficulty levels, I just finished a championship on 'high' and starting my legend championship. Yes, even with GT5 out I still play this game, for the sake of the race-feeling. SSV8NC battle you, but don't push you of the road. They don't take you out from behind. And still, you have to fight with them. Als long as you don't make big mistakes you are fighting in a pack of cars the whole race. Some drivers are more aggresive than others, there is a lot of contact but not the kind that will push you of the road intentionally.
Besides that, more than once I raced several laps 3 secs. behind a car, with gaining and losing 0,1 of seconds on my split times. Some may consider It boring, I consider It brilliant.

I can see however that this is not the way GT5 is setup. Indeed, what is the fun to notice you can't keep up with the top AI drivers. With SSV8NC you would keep practicing and setting up your car for that extra 0,1 of a second, with GT5 you make sure you earn your money and make your car faster than the rest.

So basically, I don't play GT5 to find some tense off line battles, I play It to experience that next car I can afford. And If I want a race weekend, I play SSV8NC You can't have It all.

 

[ScouserInExile]

Finally you are starting to see the point. It is very subjetive what a good, realistic AI is. How does a game developer decide what is realistic?

Let's say the AI can manage 1.58.000 lap times at Monaco with even circumstances. I can manage the same as him, so I say it is realistic. Let's say you only can manage 1.59.500 lap times, you say it's too hard, you will need a better car. And someone can manage 1.56.000 times, and he says it's too easy it's not realistic.

I say a realistic AI can manage the best times possible, but it's not a good thing from a gamers point of view. That's why it's realistic, because it's like how the best drivers in the world would drive.

Of course I admit, that the AI is dumb in this game, because it's just doing the same thing over and over again. But this thread is not about this.

There would be 3 types of players playing the game:
1. Who can beat the realistic AI
2. Who is as good as the realistic AI
3. Who is worse then the realistic AI (this would be most of us)

I think we just want more competitiveness in this game. But what would happen if the AI were competitive and you could not win the race you want? You would tone your car, so you can easilybeat it. And from this point, there is no need to have realistic AI, because if you can't beat it in even circumstances, you will outpower it.

Maybe most of us would try for the 100th time to win the race on theese boards, but we are minority. People who buy this game want to win, and they want it quickly. They don't need realistic AI, they need wins, and they want a Platinum trophy as soon as possible.

So, I think there's no need for better AI, till you can outpower it soo easily.

And hey man? Why are you in Exile? Away from home?

I think you are misinterpretting what people consider to be "good" when they say "good AI". Good AI does not necessarilly mean that they can get the best time possible out of a particular car on a particular track, consistantly. That would be bad / no AI. When you watch motorsport, drivers will never, ever put in the same lap time lap after lap, even ignoring external factors, this is because they are not computers, they are human and therefore make descions. Which is the crux of AI - it's making decisions. Good AI is making those descisions in a way that makes them indistinguishable from a human - so making bad as well as good descisions. But the point is that they make some descision.

At the moment, in GT, the AI drivers don't ever seem to make any form of rational descision. The examples being given in this thread show this - they don't try to avoid running into things being the biggest bug-bear. The vast bulk of the time, the AI just acts like a slot car and tries to follow the racing line at a certain speed. What people would like to see is them deviating from this plan a little, to show a little (artificial) intelligence, in fact.

The worry that you won't be able to beat the AI is a bit of a moot point, since there are plenty of races that are hard to beat for most people with the fairly thick AI we have at the moment. Even when there aren't AI cars involved, there are parts of the game that are still very hard to beat - for example, I can't get golds on the vast majority of the licence tests, if any...

Oh and for the "In Exile" thing - I didn't livbe in Liverpool for 13 years and started using this name when i left. I moved back 4 weeks ago though.

 

[dominic280378]

To the original post, it says on the box GT is "The Real DRIVING simulator", not racing.
The game only really comes to life when its you and a car against the track and clock, the racing in the series was never developed in any way.

 

[ScouserHUN]

To the original post, it says on the box GT is "The Real DRIVING simulator", not racing.
The game only really comes to life when its you and a car against the track and clock, the racing in the series was never developed in any way.

Racing can only be found online to be honest. And it's fine for me

 

[7HO]

Good AI is AI that will try to avoid a collision, Good AI will give you room when you pass the B pillar on the inside. It doesn't mean the perfect unbeatable driver, it means that it will react like a real race driver.

In real racing better cars win races, even in classes with strict rules and great parity there are still cars that are faster than others, this comes down to setup, in these classes the best driver doesn't win, the best team wins. It is a combination of great driver meets great setup/tune.

This means you can have good AI and if you put them in standard cars even in a one make race you can still beat them with a superior setup but like I said just because it is good AI doesn't mean it is a great race driver, it is possible for an intelligent person to be both a good clean racer and slow. Look at formula one, these drivers all have exceptional skill and there is still a measurable difference between them. Compare the qualifying order with the final order, even the fastest car and driver combination doesn't always win.

You can have good AI and still win races but you will find that when most people mention they want better AI they are simply referring to AI that will drive and react like real people on a track with varying skill levels that get better as you progress.

The other thing is races don't need to be so short if you have good AI. I know if I spend $300-$1500 to race in a club level event I don't want to race for only 2 laps. The problem with A spec races at the lower level is if I pass all the cars on the first lap every lap after that is boring. If like me you enjoy a challenge you probably often do the same thing I do and pick a car that makes it harder for you to win. Chances are if you are like me you also want races that are at least 5 laps and enjoy longer races if they are good and if you have the time.

 

[skywolf23]

F1 2010 doesn't do a bad job with the AI. Some problems yes but overall quite good.
After the patch I don't know if it's my imagination but the magnet effect on cars seem greatly reduced.
Unless it's a placebo effect lol.

F1 2010 the ai just laps around the track, all actual lap times are generated by the game not their actual lap pace. Tho their race ai is pretty decent it is wholly artificial system designed to trick you into thinking your racing for real.

Drafting seems fine to me did the nascar challenges and golded them all yesterday.

Here is my take on the GT5 ai, a lot of the challenges are setup in such a way that having real ai would make them inhumanly difficult. All the start at the back of the grid stuff work you way up in x laps, would be undoable at all since going from 12th to 16th into 1st 2nd 3rd, is pretty darn unreasonable less you just got a pure op car, or about 20 30 laps to do it.

Race ai should and could be fixed, i mean you got a legit mid field start, a decent amount of laps to work your way up, many times you can mod your car to be twice as good as any other car in the same field. And the rock stupid follow the line ai really shows up here, nm when you are trying to pass and your on the line and get barreled into, which totally blew my extreme nascar series other day, since i got taken out and spun in 2 different races when the ai just plowed me pinned me then spun me. It is extremely hard to draft on road courses for speed, which you pretty much need, when the ai pays you no mind at all.

So imo at lest GT5 needs 2 different AI, one for normal races one for the setup challenge junk, then we would have a much better game.

But it is GT so i am not holding my breath for it to happen.

 

[HBK]

Like many others have said, the problem is not having some kind of a perfect driver AI.

One of the main problems is: the AI basically ignores the player's car in many situations.

But what I really don't understand, is that in 2010, on a PS3 (one of the most powerful console ever created, if not the most powerful), we still have ultra rubber-banded AI that is not subject to the same rules as the player, and we don't have any difficulty adjustment option.

I don't want the game to "cheat" the controls so I can be competitive (assists). I want to be able to race against competitors of similar ability. So that if I want a challenge, I can raise their ability. Or if I just want to have an easy ride, I can lower their ability. And yes, strange as it may seem, I want my tools to be pretty much similar to those available to the AI, be it the way their car behaves or their driving abilities (hello HKS-Evo driving by night without headlights).

Why, o, why can't we have such a basic option as a difficulty setting in what will probably be the biggest sale on the PS3 ?

I. Just. Don't. Understand.

 

[Bigbazz]

This is stupid, its impossible to beat fast AI so therfor we have to instead beat our AI by like 6 seconds a lap. My B-spec Bob was running 8 seconds a lap slower than my average at Indianapolis and still managed to win the race.



Rfactor has quite brainless AI, but the AI is atleast fast in that game, doesnt feel like i can just woosh past them all in the first 3 corners and then pull off a massive lead. F1 2010, really great AI compared to most games (though still braindead to be honest), the AI there is very fast infact, at catalunya almost impossibly fast yet i still managed to become the world champion in my first season, on legendary difficulty, the AI is actually fast in that game when you compare it to GT5.


The AI in GT5 are driving maybe 10seconds under the potential of their cars on a 1m20 track, i shouldnt be able to win a championship vs a bunch of GT Lemans cars in a road car. In iRacing i often pass and lap slower drivers, but those slower drivers are like lightning compared to GT5 AI.


My piece of cake on the matter. GT5 is great though dont get me wrong, the ai are just stupidly slow... and stupid.

 

[dominic280378]

Like many others have said, the problem is not having some kind of a perfect driver AI.

One of the main problems is: the AI basically ignores the player's car in many situations.

But what I really don't understand, is that in 2010, on a PS3 (one of the most powerful console ever created, if not the most powerful), we still have ultra rubber-banded AI that is not subject to the same rules as the player, and we don't have any difficulty adjustment option.

I don't want the game to "cheat" the controls so I can be competitive (assists). I want to be able to race against competitors of similar ability. So that if I want a challenge, I can raise their ability. Or if I just want to have an easy ride, I can lower their ability. And yes, strange as it may seem, I want my tools to be pretty much similar to those available to the AI, be it the way their car behaves or their driving abilities (hello HKS-Evo driving by night without headlights).

Why, o, why can't we have such a basic option as a difficulty setting in what will probably be the biggest sale on the PS3 ?

I. Just. Don't. Understand.

As I posted earlier, giving a convincing "race" experience is not where the heart of GT5 lies. I only figured this out in the last few days, the single player game is at its best doing when its just a time trial event where you have to drive perfectly to get gold. Generally the game comes a bit undone when you race against the computer controlled drivers, its just because the it was never the focus of the developers. The same can be said for the online portion of the game, most people were shocked that when games like Black Ops have pretty seamless and configurable online play that GT5's online functions are very basic, its simply because Kaz is obsessed with providing a real driving experience, everything else is secondary. Hopefully patches will some of these problems now that they know people are unhappy with them.

 

[HBK]

As I posted earlier, giving a convincing "race" experience is not where the heart of GT5 lies.

Well, right now the "heart" of GT5 lies in being able to get first place after a few corners, thanks to the rubber-banded AI that waits for you, and in avoiding to screw-up on the last lap, thanks to the rubber-banded AI that is right behind you and that you may not be able to overtake before the end of the race, even if they wait for you. Of course, screwing-up in the middle of the race has little to no effect, as the AI will wait for you and you should be able to reclaim first place within a lap (at most).

If all GT-life was only time attacks without AIs, I would be much happier than racing theses 80's arcade-style AIs.

And I won't even speak of Civics being able to follow NSXs, or MR2s registering better lap-times than F40s (they must have been very motivated while following this heavily tuned R34). All actually seen in-game, of course.

 

[No46_TheDoctor]

As far as I see it the A.I. are there to stop you getting bored while you complete a race, nothing more nothing less, there is no "feeling" from beating the A.I., simply from completing the race in 1st place, they are eye candy.

And I agree with O.P. if the A.I. were at a realistic level, whose level do you choose?

My level is not the same as the next players, etc, etc. There would need to be some mechanism which defines the level of the A.I. based on a qualifying lap, but his would be open to abuse by people doing really slow qualifying laps.

So yes, you can't have realistic levels of A.I. performance that will suit everyone, should they be at the level of a professional race driver we would all struggle !

And even if you could keep up you would need a fair few laps to gain the advantage in a race, maybe during a pitstop or something.

The only gripe I have with the A.I. is that they still ram you up the arse into the braking zones, no matter how late you brake, and it gets worse the harder the races get, added to that the fact that once they make contact they keep pushing, and their cars appear to have been covered in sticky toffee, slowing you down even more !

I just completed the 4 Hour Tsukuba endurance race yesterday, and after getting to the front took great pleasure sending each and every one of the A.I. cars into the nearest gravel trap or into the pits when they didn't need to go, I hate them.

And before Devedander goes and jumps all over my ass, this is just my opinion, not fact, OK?

 

[dominic280378]

Well, right now the "heart" of GT5 lies in being able to get first place after a few corners, thanks to the rubber-banded AI that waits for you, and in avoiding to screw-up on the last lap, thanks to the rubber-banded AI that is right behind you and that you may not be able to overtake before the end of the race, even if they wait for you. Of course, screwing-up in the middle of the race has little to no effect, as the AI will wait for you and you should be able to reclaim first place within a lap (at most).

If all GT-life was only time attacks without AIs, I would be much happier than racing theses 80's arcade-style AIs.

And I won't even speak of Civics being able to follow NSXs, or MR2s registering better lap-times than F40s (they must have been very motivated while following this heavily tuned R34). All actually seen in-game, of course.

I agree 100%. I really thought that after so long in development that the single player game would be fleshed out into a real racing experience. I just realised recently thats not on PD's to-do list! They are solely focused on making the cars handle realistically (though their choice to not model proper rolling/damage physics is really bizarre if thats the case)

 

[Biggles]

OP is just another angle to make an excuse for the substandard AI in Gran Turismo.

Ideally the AI should drive as fast as you (with 2 or 3 different levels of "fast"), but, like you make little mistakes here & there that allow for passing opportunities, & take advantage of your own little mistakes to re-pass. You should not be required to overtake 15 unrealistically slower cars in order to "win" - better to have some kind of qualifying in order to decide the grid positions. I would rather drive one-on-one with a single, fast & responsive AI opponent than against 15 mindless bots.

 

[B Quiet N Drive]

This game offline is all about beating the clock, not the other cars!

To which many would answer:
Okay great then, remove the other cars and give me a time to beat. Until then, I AM racing the other cars, and it IS boring. Period.



The racing in these games is what you make of it. If the racing is boring, go back and grab a slower car. I prefer to take a few minutes and find the right car, by starting with one that's about 20 HP less than the fastest AI car, and I go from there. I'm no rush to beat the game. I like to take my time and make sure I'm feeling challenged, or I'll just end up going and playing something else.

 

[ScouserHUN]

Ideally the AI should drive as fast as you

So this is what I'm talking about. Let's say, the AI is as fast as you. You and all of tha AI drivers have the very same car. Do you think, that you can win a race in these even circumstances with starting from the 10th place? It is not possible to do it! Maybe you will have luck 1-2 times, but on a long run, you will loose these races.

If the AI is as fast as you, you will need qualification and mutch longer races to do that. But this game is not about this, and to tell the truth it never was. You always start from 10th+ places and you have to win in 3-5 laps.

So in this case the devs have 2 options:

1. Create qualification and 40+ lap races witch is as realistic as it can be, with the best AI we have ever seen.
2. Create lesser AI, so in even circumstances the player can win the race in 3-5 laps, and have the possibility to tune the cars, so you can outpower the AI.

The first option would be the dream for a simulation fan, who has the time and skill to practice 1000+ laps on one track to be consistent. But only very small percentage of the players are hardcore fans, so this is not an option for this game.

So, they decided to make lesser AI and everybody can win in 3-5 laps. Of course the AI could be smarter, could look for you and react to the way you are driving. But does it matter? You will always win in the end.

That's why I think the game does not need better AI. Hardcore simulator fans should just survive GT Life and start playing online. That's where the competitiveness comes.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I noticed the AI in the Grand Valley enduro moved over when I came to lap them.

 

[Patrocles]

I think GT lost it when they started to include racing cars alongside road cars. It's called 'the real driving simulator' not 'the real racing simulator'. I think the GT games would be better off without other AI cars. Just give us a heap of tracks and a heap of cars that handle realistically, we can race each other online now if we feel the need. When they figure out an AI system that doesn't have downsyndrome then they could incorporate it into the game. It's a bit late for that now though.



It's a picture of a white with blue stripes, race spec'd dodge viper with a big 🤬 snake coming out of the roof.

I am only familiar with GT5P and GT5.

You say GT "lost it" when they started to include racing in the game. At what game version did the inclusion of racing and other cars occur?
thanks!