Highcroft's Deltawing *Update: granted ALMS 2013 full entry! *

[Ardius]

Hmm, so we have:
LMP1: 900kg, 2.0turbo/3.4/3.7turbodiesel, 75-60 litre fuel tank
LMP2: 900kg, 3.2turbo/5.0, 75 litre fuel tank
DeltaWing: 475kg, 1.6turbo, 40 litre fuel tank

Is it really a surprise that the DeltaWing has a better fuel effeciencey with a much smaller capacity engine and half the weight?

 

[Tired Tyres]

12 MPG if staggering good mate. Take a decent road car and thrash it around a track and you'll be looking a 4-5 MPG on average.

 

[Hun200kmh]

This is a very interesting read

http://www.eviltwinmotorsports.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Chassis-Newsletter-2011.10.pdf

 

[Blaze_409]

190mph is about GT top speed I think, so the Deltawing will probably be same pace on straights but in turns make it all up with its agile light chassis.

The top speed seen on test day was about 180mph from one of the Ferrari's. The rest of the cars were doing about 160-170mph.
Surprisingly the delta wing was averaging about 300km/h or 186mph. thats pretty much with and above the LMP2 cars.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Am I the only one who thinks these look like training wheels?

 

[Ardius]

12 MPG if staggering good mate. Take a decent road car and thrash it around a track and you'll be looking a 4-5 MPG on average.

I'm not referring to the quoted MPG. But the quotes suggesting they have better fuel mileage than their "competitors". Their competitors have larger engines producing more power stuck into a much heavier car - and they are stuck with regulations to do this.

I seem to remember a Cosworth engineer saying that an F1 engine ran at similar revs to a roadcar can actually achieve a very good MPG because of how effecient the engine needs to be. If they can actually get 12MPG at racing speed with full revs then yeah thats amazing. But if it requires them to lower the revs its not.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Months ago we had, in this same thread, a Porsche Curves discussion about the DeltaWing. Here the most relevant segments:

The slow sections are where aerodynamics have no effect and it's all about mechanical grip so doesn't really effect it not having wings. It's supposed a ground effects car. I don't know much about ground effects hence why I'm skeptical but that would explain the early f1 cars having little wings. Delta wing is such a great mystery. Ill have to see it to believe otherwise lol.

That mechanical grip that the DeltaWing has is so understeer heavy they'll have a hard time sitting on throttle thru the Porsche Curves....

Funny, I think it's in the Porsche Curves that the DW be consistently quicker than all other cars. Enough speed to make the huge Venturi glue the car to the ground. Where I think the car will struggle more is in the very slow corners (Mulsanne and Arnage especially) plus the Dunlop and the second Ford chicane.

There's some bumps in the Porsche curves that will be a pain in the backside for this car (cue Peugeot taking flight video) and I don't think it will be a fun ride.....

And today i read this from Michael Krumm - about the Porsche Curves - and it seems he had the same fears as Stavelot, but ended the Test Day more confident.

“The car feels great around here. I was a little concerned about how the Nissan DeltaWing would feel through the Porsche Curves but it is absolutely fantastic and very stable. You can push really hard – so much fun to drive. I can’t wait for the race.”

Source


I was right, apparently

 

[MustangManiac]

Hmm, so we have:
LMP1: 900kg, 2.0turbo/3.4/3.7turbodiesel, 75-60 litre fuel tank
LMP2: 900kg, 3.2turbo/5.0, 75 litre fuel tank
DeltaWing: 475kg, 1.6turbo, 40 litre fuel tank

Is it really a surprise that the DeltaWing has a better fuel effeciencey with a much smaller capacity engine and half the weight?

I believe that was the point, much more efficient while maintaining pace.

 

[Dotini]

Hmm, so we have:
LMP1: 900kg, 2.0turbo/3.4/3.7turbodiesel, 75-60 litre fuel tank
LMP2: 900kg, 3.2turbo/5.0, 75 litre fuel tank
DeltaWing: 475kg, 1.6turbo, 40 litre fuel tank

Is it really a surprise that the DeltaWing has a better fuel effeciencey with a much smaller capacity engine and half the weight?

Why not a Deltawing Jr?
LMP1: 900kg, 2.0turbo/3.4/3.7turbodiesel, 75-60 litre fuel tank
LMP2: 900kg, 3.2turbo/5.0, 75 litre fuel tank
DeltaWing: 475kg, 1.6turbo, 40 litre fuel tank
Deltawing Jr: 250 kg, 800cc turbo, 25 liter tank

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Ardius]

I believe that was the point, much more efficient while maintaining pace.

But its not limited by regulations - what point is it proving? LMP1 and LMP2 cars could do the same if they weren't limited by the regulations.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I may be mistaken, but the trick with the DeltaWing is purely an aerodynamical one. It goes like this:

Half the weight
Half the power
Half the fuel
Half the tyres

Can you be on the pace of an LMP2 for 24 hours while observing this 4-items check list?I'm not an engineer, but apparently the consensus is that you can't (in a conventional prototype)

Therefore, you must develop an aero package that allows it. By generating great downforce with litle drag.

Hence:

- The triangular shape
- The "Venturi body"
- The lack of wings

They took on the challenge and they are about to prove if it works.

 

[MustangManiac]

But its not limited by regulations - what point is it proving? LMP1 and LMP2 cars could do the same if they weren't limited by the regulations.

Name me one racer/team/enthusiast that has ever willingly chose a smaller less powerful motor, seems counter intuitive to me. My guess is that the regs are in place to keep them from going larger/more power than the other way around.
One reason to prove its point is that our beloved sport is an incredible waste of valuable resources and with the whole world getting more "green conscious" every day this is not good for us. Perhaps greener racing will help extend the life of the sport we enjoy so much. Another reason would be technology transfer to road cars, usually the primary reason for manufacturer involvement in racing.

 

[Ardius]

Its not because its counter-intuitive, its because it isn't competitive. The regulations completely dictate what types of engines are allowed and hence what size turbos, the types of fuel, materials, etc etc that are used. It means you drastically reduce the alternatives.
I'm sure if someone could have run a smaller engine competitively - they certainly would have! Especially considering we're talking about Audi and Peugeot here! These are car manufacturers that have perhaps more relevance in i4 engines than they do with V6s or V12s!

The DeltaWing's engine is not restricted on any of these things. It doesn't run to the same engine regulations. They can use different turbos to the LMP/GT cars. I'm sure there are many ways they can do things different that gains them an edge on fuel effeciencey and engine performance and weight.

Indeed Hun, the point of the DeltaWing is to show that it can be as fast and as competitive as the ordinary LMP cars and its meant to do this using a large venturi and an alternative arrangement with the chassis.
The problem I have with with some of these claims is that it seemingly ignores the fact this car currently doesn't have a regulation restriction on it. So its very easy to sit back and say it can out-perform other cars when they can do whatever they like with the car (that is, beyond the chassis arrangment - not all of the performance difference comes from having no wings and a 3-wheel-effect arrangement).

I fully expect this car to be better than the rest. It bloody should be being half the weight, using half the power and a smaller capacity engine! But whether it can also be as fast as the LMPs remains to be seen. And even if it is faster - it keeps coming back to the point is it faster because of the design or faster simply because its lighter and uses a smaller engine?

All I'm saying is that its not a fair, straight comparison.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I see your point Ardius, but I do think there are undisclosed regs in this project. We already know that the ACO demanded a 1'45 lap. No more, no less. And apparently they had to tick also the top-speed box. Probably a few others, two of them being known after the race (half the fuel, half the tyres)


(I guess they don't want an experiment to crush the major LMP cars, it would be embarrassing ... but at the same time they want a car that mingles with the other competitors, both in straight line and in cornering speeds. Can't blame them).

You may say that these regs limit the results achieved, but not "how-to" achieve them. And you're right. Nevertheless, it was and is a tall order. We will see if they manege to achieve the results demanded, with whatever they came up with.

 

[MustangManiac]

You are right, but the sport has to be regulated to at least some extent, for both safety and cost. Otherwise you end up with one or two at most multi-million dollar backed groups shutting everybody else out of the competition. Where is the sport in that? Cost containment is a major force in most all forms of motor sport, so you can't just constantly make big changes to the regs therefore by nature you are shutting down innovation. I don't think anyone is saying that the Delta Wing is any better it is just different. The experimental class allows the innovation that the regs shut out. Will some of this innovation show up in the road cars available to us? Given the manufacturers involved I would say most certainly. Will some of it show up in this or other motor sports regulations in the future, I would guess a definite maybe...or maybe not

 

[Dotini]

Name me one racer/team/enthusiast that has ever willingly chose a smaller less powerful motor, seems counter intuitive to me.

^^^I'm a possible example of what you're asking for. For years I raced sports cars at the SCCA level. After a time, I learned that karts actually can turn quicker laptimes at the same circuits, and costs a small fraction of that needed for car racing. Smaller tow vehicle and trailer, less garage space consumed, less need for pit crew, it all adds up. Smaller can be better, and more fun, too.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[MustangManiac]

^^^I'm a possible example of what you're asking for. For years I raced sports cars at the SCCA level. After a time, I learned that karts actually can turn quicker laptimes at the same circuits, and costs a small fraction of that needed for car racing. Smaller tow vehicle and trailer, less garage space consumed, less need for pit crew, it all adds up. Smaller can be better, and more fun, too.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

Ok, but you changed racing series due mainly to cheaper cost, I was talking about going smaller/less power within the same series/class of racing. I also cut back by racing other series or classes when I got older...and smarter, either that or I just figured I was lucky to still be alive after all those years of crazy youthful indiscretion

 

[Ardius]

You are right, but the sport has to be regulated to at least some extent, for both safety and cost. Otherwise you end up with one or two at most multi-million dollar backed groups shutting everybody else out of the competition. Where is the sport in that? Cost containment is a major force in most all forms of motor sport, so you can't just constantly make big changes to the regs therefore by nature you are shutting down innovation. I don't think anyone is saying that the Delta Wing is any better it is just different. The experimental class allows the innovation that the regs shut out. Will some of this innovation show up in the road cars available to us? Given the manufacturers involved I would say most certainly. Will some of it show up in this or other motor sports regulations in the future, I would guess a definite maybe...or maybe not

I'm not saying regulation is bad. I'm just pointing out that these comparisons with LMP1 and LMP2 are not fair comparisons and to justfiy the project based on the premise "this design of this car is better than those" is hence a little weak.

If we allowed LMP1 cars to run half the weight with ground effects they would probably be able to achieve similar results without resorting to this different wheel base configuration.

Nothing wrong with a car being different or innovative - I just question the supposed benefits of this car. I have no problem with this car existing and the people behind it giving it a go. I have no problem (like it seems some people do) with it taking the ACO 56th entry. I only have a problem with the why? of the project. I still don't feel anyone has given a decent reason why this project is great beyond it being different.
Seeing as motorsport is very expensive already and regulation changes are already something that can break series (due to the rise in development costs) - the last thing we really need is for people to suggest to change the basic design of cars simply because its different. Give us a genuine reason why this design is better!

I'm sure there are some benefits to this design, I just wish the people who support this project wouldn't keep quoting figures compared to cars which do not meet the same design specs! When you have another 56th entry where they design a "normal" LMP car that uses the same principle of no wings, loads of ground effects, a small engine, low weight and low horsepower - then we can talk about whether the DeltaWing design is a genuinely possible alternative design with visible benefits.

 

[niky]

It's great simply because it's different. It would be nice to have a separate class for this kind of car.

It's about time. It was a revolutionary idea when proposed for Indy, and if it does well here, that'll be vindication for the designer, who lost out to a more conventional alternative.

The thing about designing a "normal" LMP car to the same weight, I don't think it'll be easy to get to that curb weight without resorting to something as narrow as the DeltaWing...

An open-wheeler is just as light, though, so you may have a point...

Deltawing Jr: 250 kg, 800cc turbo, 25 liter tank

I'd pay to watch that. Hell... forward the plans to the Chinese and it'll be on Alibaba.com within the month, with a fuel-injected turbocharged Chery engine.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's great simply because it's different. It would be nice to have a separate class for this kind of car.

Maybe they could open up a championship for experimental vehicles. Call it the "XLMS", or "Experimental Le Mans Series".

 

[Submerged]

Didn't they do that with the Group B Rally and also the super fast Le Mans Prototype cars?

 

[Hun200kmh]

New Video, from NISSAN




And a picture of the DW @ "Le Pésage"

 

[Blaze_409]

So what exactly did they "scrutineer"...Theres no rule book for this car.

 

[lbsf1]

So what exactly did they "scrutineer"...Theres no rule book for this car.

Probably just that they see it as safe, however with a car like that most of that will have been done way before to allow it to race, however all cars must be checked.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Well, seat belts, roll bar, fire extinguisher, homologated tub, that sort of thing

More seriously, they do have specs regarding the engine that must have no more than half the capacity of a turbocharged LMP2 (3.200 cm3), meaning 1.6. The remaining "specs" are only "scrutineerable" during the race (half the tyres, half the fuel, fully the distance and the pace)

 

[Dotini]

Well, seat belts, roll bar, fire extinguisher, homologated tub, that sort of thing

To an older generation, the much despised and feared LeMans scrutineering consisted of them looking for space for a ridiculous regulation-sized FIA suitcase, minimal "doors" and a windshield high enough so you had to look through it, not over it. It about drove Colin Chapman crazy.

Retrospectively,
Steve

 

[TheCracker]

The thing about designing a "normal" LMP car to the same weight, I don't think it'll be easy to get to that curb weight without resorting to something as narrow as the DeltaWing...

It would be a piece of piss to get an LMP1 or LMP2 down towards the Deltawings unbalased weight. We have four seat, steel bodied family saloons with iron blocked engines and no more exotic a material used than aluminium, that weigh less than 700kgs that race in our series.

LMP1 & 2's are balased up quite considerably. The Deltawing has no such regulations. Any closeness the DW has in performance to a LMP2 is completely artificial.

 

[Hun200kmh]

It would be a piece of piss to get an LMP1 or LMP2 down towards the Deltawings unbalased weight. We have four seat, steel bodied family saloons with iron blocked engines and no more exotic a material used than aluminium, that weigh less than 700kgs that race in our series.

LMP1 & 2's are balased up quite considerably. The Deltawing has no such regulations. Any closeness the DW has in performance to a LMP2 is completely artificial.

Partially agree. The DeltaWing is "toned down" as to not upset the normal competitors. With a bigger tank and un-restricted engine (Franchitti said at the Tech inspection interview that the engine could deliver more, but that they left it at 300 bhp) it could be leading the race come the first round of pitstops.

I think you and Ardius are wrong by not considering this car as technologically relevant. Ben Bowlby said it, he thinks he can take on any rectangular car with the same engine specs, aero specs and weight specs and still win due to less use of tyres and fuel. Because form follows function and he thinks the "delta form/shape" is inherently better than the traditional, rectangular one.

Think of his triangular shape as a completely new approach to a racing car's architecture. Something like switching the engine from the front to the back of the driver's cockpit. There's no big technological leap there, right? Same engine, same materials, same everything, but ... it changed motorsports.

There's only one flaw in this DeltaWing adventure, one flaw that will always allow the doubt of its true worth. They're not allowed to take on the rectangular cars.

On a different subject, but not worthy of double-posting. Nice video on what this car went through during tech inspection day.

 

[TheCracker]

It would be interesting to see how the Deltawing would stack up against a Formula Atlantic or a Formula 3 car. The Atlantic has a similar power level, but is heavier. The Formula 3 is a similar weight but 100bhp down on the Deltawing.

Even comparing it to an LMP2 car which it's managed so far to lap almost as quick as (which is their goal) it still has to have massive weighting benefits to do so. An LMP2 car has an approximate power to weight ratio of 500bhp per ton, compared to the Deltawing's 631bhp per ton. So to keep up with the LMP2's lap times, the DW needs a 130bhp per ton advantage over them - it's hardly a relevant comparison.

I still see it as the answer to a question that doesn't need asking.

 

[Emptyone]

Interview with Marino Franchetti talking about qualifying in the Delta Wing and racing in the dark.
link
Delta Wing also firmly on the LMP2 pace, 28th in practice today with a 3:43.3xx