Highcroft's Deltawing *Update: granted ALMS 2013 full entry! *

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I still see it as the answer to a question that doesn't need asking.

Are you not even excited to see something original then?

GT racing seems like one of the very few bastions of truly original engineering in motorsport. Everything else is regulated to buggery and back, where only tiny little changes are allowed (and often, even tiny changes are rejected) to find a performance advantage.

F1 is a prime example. MotoGP and the lower Moto formulas are another - back in the 1960s there were five cylinder 125cc bikes competing against singles, fours, triples, two and four-stroke... - now Moto3, which replaced is a bunch of basically identical single-cylinder, four-stroke 250s. Tight regulations strangle ingenuity.

As far as I'm concerned, the DW is exactly the sort of car I want to see at Le Mans, and representative of what I want to see from top-level motorsport in general. But not just a grid full of identical DWs either - a grid full of equally unique vehicles.

Sod parity or comparison with what's here already - I want to see engineers doing engineering, and the products of that engineering being raced on the world stage. GT is great. At Le Mans this year we have petrols, diesels, hybrids, diesel hybrids, GT-class cars, and the DW. Dunno about anyone else, but I think that's fantastic.
 
Sadly in these days of huge costly manufacturer involvement, ingenuity isn't something they want figuring into the equation. If they're going to plough millions into race programs, they want to be there or there abouts when it's 'value' is inevitably brought up in board meetings. We're not in the 50's, 60's, 70's or even 80's anymore where a manufacturer could, for a relatively modest financial and personnel outlay, beat the smaller outfits and there by gain an image boost for their road cars. If the manufacturers don't want it, you can guarantee the rule makers will follow the money train. Le Mans, and sportscar racing in general, is one of the last bastions of variety within a single race or race series, and i love it for that. But different for differents sake without have any relevance or parity of regulation to the cars it's competing with, is pointless IMO.
 
Are you not even excited to see something original then?

I think my problem with it is that its being somewhat heralded as being clever and a genuine alternative to LMP2. As I explained before, its not a straight comparison so its difficult to really tell if it really is an effective alternative. The reliance on ground effects is surely a huge advantage and what does ground effects really bring to roadcars? Not that I want racing technology to necessarily be driven by road-relevance..but if they are trying to trumpet it as such, I find it just a little deceiving to be comparing its performance like that.

The point of the 56th slot at Le Mans is not "simply to be different". While I like variety as much as anyone else - its not why I'm interested in the alternative cars that get the 56th garage.
I do however take interest in the DeltaWing precisely because its different. And for that at least it does help encourage people to watch Le Mans. That can only be a good thing.
 
I also agree. Thought the car would have so many problems, won't turn in properly, bad tyre wear and many other possibilities but it seemed like they took everything normally yesterday.

The only fault I think with the car is that it's sensitive to bumps. We could see more fire extinguisher being fired off in the race. They also admitted that the car would be a real challenge to drive on wet condition because all the water will not be disperse, instead they'll stay underneath the car. It could rain for Thursday so we'll see how the car performs.
 
Le Mans, and sportscar racing in general, is one of the last bastions of variety within a single race or race series, and i love it for that. But different for differents sake without have any relevance or parity of regulation to the cars it's competing with, is pointless IMO.

You may say that - and you will be mostly right - when we discuss cars that are put in the same class but are different. Like Diesels and Petrols, Hybrid and Classic power plants, closed and open tops. And that's all in LMP1. Because if they're battling in the same class then the concern with parity should be priority ONE.

However, the DeltaWing is not competing within any given class so it's pointless to argue about parity. It's aim is to show how a particularly efficient design can lap around Le Mans at "prototype-pace" using half the resources a prototype uses. Some people say a rectangular car could do it also. But the truth is ... a triangular car CAN, and that is in itself an amazing breakthrough. Because a few months ago, people would just say it wouldn't do it.

Now the creator that, against so many voices, said the car could achieve what he designed it to achieve ... (we can consider that box ticked now) ... says that a classic-shaped rectangular car can't do the same tyre and fuel saving (keeping the pace), no matter what specs. I'd say his credibility can be questioned again, but I'll give him more than the benefit of the doubt now.


I think my problem with it is that its being somewhat heralded as being clever and a genuine alternative to LMP2. As I explained before, its not a straight comparison so its difficult to really tell if it really is an effective alternative. The reliance on ground effects is surely a huge advantage and what does ground effects really bring to roadcars? Not that I want racing technology to necessarily be driven by road-relevance..but if they are trying to trumpet it as such, I find it just a little deceiving to be comparing its performance like that.

The point of the 56th slot at Le Mans is not "simply to be different". While I like variety as much as anyone else - its not why I'm interested in the alternative cars that get the 56th garage.
I do however take interest in the DeltaWing precisely because its different. And for that at least it does help encourage people to watch Le Mans. That can only be a good thing.

Ground effects brought a lot to road cars. In fact, much more than "wings" did. Bodyworks are now carefully considered from an aerodynamical standpoint. And the engineers' aim is not simply to achieve less drag (and less fuel consumption). It is also to achieve less "lift", and therefore more stable and secure cars considering the averagely high speed of cars in motorways around the globe.

So yes, I thing the quest for ground effects with litle drag interests manufacturers much, much more than "wings".


Anyway, the DW paid last night the price for the litle time of its development phase. I guess something like this is Ben Bowlby's worst nightmare. That the car starts the race, does 3 laps and then stops far from the pits and any possibility of assistance because something totally random and totally stupid happened (like the fire extinguisher firing and shutting down the electronics of the car). I hope they can prevent any of this from happening again.

In any case I'm reading elsewhere that the "weak spot" of this car is the gearbox/transmission ( I think they can change it during the race, but I'm not sure).

One other thing of interest. From the beggining of all this the word was that the car's "target pace" would be somewhere between LMP1 anD LMP2. Only (a lot) later we heard about the ACO wanting them to lap around 3'45. Considering 2011 quali and race times, that's a LOT slower than the best LMP1, and close to the best LMP2 cars.

So, if the 3'45 target is true, the DeltaWing was requested to "mingle" with the LMP2's and not to be somewhere in-between both prototype classes.

BUT

Now the DeltaWing went faster than 3'45, and already clocked a 3:42.612 in the first quali session - I'd say easily, it was done at the second flying lap, and it stopped immediately after.

This laptime, last year, would place them:
- 16th on the grid
- between 2nd placed LMP2 (OAK - 3'41,908)
- and 3rd placed LMP2 (Strakka - 3'42,615)

AND

Them DeltaWing guys are very optimistic, with Michael Krumm saying that the 3 laps he did allowed him to understand that the setup changes made did wonders and that the car had become much faster while at the same time much easier to drive.

Here his words:

Michael Krumm
“Unfortunately I made a mistake in Tertre Rouge when I hit the kerb too hard and the fire extinguisher went off and it shut down the car.
“But until then the car felt absolutely fantastic. We made the right choices on changes to the set-up after the practice session.
“The car felt much easier to drive and it was exciting to see the lap times drop more and more.
“We were able to prove that the car can be really fast and that is a big important step for us. It was an important box for us to tick that we could do low 40s and I think we can get into the high 30s as well.
“The team did a great job to get the car where it is now and now we keep our fingers crossed that it doesn’t rain tomorrow.
“Most important thing is we know the car can do what we expected it to do and now we have to make sure we can all get our qualifying laps in at night.”

Now, if indeed the DW can improve into the high 3'30s, as Krumm say, then maybe - just maybe - it can place itself between LMP1 and LMP2, as I think was the original purpose.

(current LMP2 pole stands at 3'39,252, achieved by Thiriet's ORECA - Nissan)


In any case, if the car lasts the distance, or at least a substancial part of it, how will it go?

Assuming it can steadily lap close to what the top LMP2 cars will do, then it will indeed do a race between them and the LMP1 class.

Why?

Because although it will stop for fuel as often as the LMP2 cars (I'll assume the smaller tank has been measured with that purpose in mind), it will change tyres less often (15 to 20 seconds gained once per 3 or 4 stops I think, not sure how many stints the LMP2 cars do) and in any case a smaller tank means less time to fill it - I read elsewhere that to fill an LMP2 tank would takeabout 20 more seconds than to fill the 40 liters of the DW's tank capacity.

So .... same pace, same rate of pitstops, but less time spent there ... it could prove interesting.
 
However, the DeltaWing is not competing within any given class so it's pointless to argue about parity. It's aim is to show how a particularly efficient design can lap around Le Mans at "prototype-pace" using half the resources a prototype uses. Some people say a rectangular car could do it also. But the truth is ... a triangular car CAN, and that is in itself an amazing breakthrough. Because a few months ago, people would just say it wouldn't do it.

Right, that's it. I'm strapping a jet engine to a unicycle next year and aiming for the 56th Garage spot too. Hopefully Rolls Royce will spot the marketing opportunity of almost total irrelevance and sponsor my effort. ;)
 
Deeply buried at the end of this piece of news (about the launch of a new "slick intermediate" tyre by Michelin), we find this irrelevancy :

Michelin is working with 32 of the 56 cars invited to compete in the 80th running of the 24 Hours of Le Mans, and is present in the LMP1, GTE-Pro and GTE-Am classes as well as the ‘experimental’ category. For this last, which in 2012 features the No.0 Nissan DeltaWing, Michelin has set a target of being able to complete 10 stints on one set of tyres.

10 stints? wow ...
 
I think that's possible because if I remember correctly, Krumm said that the tyres actually lasted pretty long in an interview yesterday.
 
What happened to Michael Krumm explained by himself here:

http://soundcloud.com/highcroft-racing/english-michael-krumm

So, the normal safety feature that shuts off entirely the car when/if the fire extinguisher is activated works in a way that makes it necessary, to "turn the lights on again", to reach a particular switch.

And ... that switch is placed where the driver isn't able to reach it. :dopey:

I hope they've changed the switch placement today, although I'm not sure you can change anything after scrutineering.
 
Ground effects brought a lot to road cars. In fact, much more than "wings" did. Bodyworks are now carefully considered from an aerodynamical standpoint. And the engineers' aim is not simply to achieve less drag (and less fuel consumption). It is also to achieve less "lift", and therefore more stable and secure cars considering the averagely high speed of cars in motorways around the globe.

Ground effects rely entirely on running a car very low to the ground. The only "roadcars" that run low enough to make use of ground effects are already semi-racing cars (or simply converted racing cars) anyway. Aerodynamics are pretty irrelevant for roadcars - yes they are considered but there are greater concerns for roadcars (safety, comfort, cost and fuel economy).

I don't care for wings or ground-effects - I'm not arguing the cars should use wings to be more road-relevant. I'm pointing out the claims of road-relevance appear to be based on simply being more effecient than an LMP2 - ignoring the reasons why it is more effecient.
 
Ok Ardius, ground effects are not a major interest of manufacturers, but aerodynamic efficiency is, and that regards both fuel consumption (a DeltaWing concern) and stability/safety (a deltaWing concern).

Anyway, as I said, the real question is:

is the triangular delta-shape an engineering breakthrough (like putting the engine behind the driver was), or would a similarly free-from-regulations rectangular car achieve the same efficiency?

Ben Bowlby says the delta-shape is the answer. After seeing that he was right on so many other issues, I tend to believe him.

But moving on, here's a nice video I found. It's a videoblog from Marino Franchitti. A bit too "jumpy" for my personal taste but interesting anyway. Especially when he shows us the underbody of the DeltaWing, featuring the Venturi twin "tunnels", around 2:55 into the video. Worth a look.

 
Ground effects rely entirely on running a car very low to the ground. The only "roadcars" that run low enough to make use of ground effects are already semi-racing cars (or simply converted racing cars) anyway. Aerodynamics are pretty irrelevant for roadcars - yes they are considered but there are greater concerns for roadcars (safety, comfort, cost and fuel economy).

I don't care for wings or ground-effects - I'm not arguing the cars should use wings to be more road-relevant. I'm pointing out the claims of road-relevance appear to be based on simply being more effecient than an LMP2 - ignoring the reasons why it is more effecient.

What exactly is your problem with the Delta Wing? You have been here arguing against everything everyone has said for nearly two solid weeks now. Don't give me any crap about comparing it too LMP1 & 2 cars either. It is the only time the car has been on the track and the only cars it has ever been run with so of course it is looked at in relation to those cars, but I do not see anyone saying it is any better than they are.
It is also crap that it is not regulated, it has been regulated to run with the LMP2 cars, otherwise it may well be mixing it up with the LMP1 rides and Audi would have none of that!
This line "Ground effects rely entirely on running a car very low to the ground." is full BS. The air running beneath a car effects its efficiency in moving through said air...period. This effects every body moving through air, check your physics. Have you looked underneath a modern car anytime recently, ever wonder why all those bumby bits have now been covered with nice smooth panals? It ain't for looks I can tell you that!
As is this line "Aerodynamics are pretty irrelevant for roadcars" do you have a clue how many aerodynamicists are employed by the auto industry or why? You even listed it, fuel efficiency, is a primary reason.
There have been times in my life when I have been arguing in one direction and an entire group of people have been arguing in the opposite. Through experience I have found that this is usually a good time to get a bit introspective, to look at my reasons, possible biases and logic behind my arguments...just a clue.
So again I ask, what exactly is your problem with the Delta Wing?
 
Deeply buried at the end of this piece of news (about the launch of a new "slick intermediate" tyre by Michelin), we find this irrelevancy :



10 stints? wow ...

Half the weight, half the horsepower, = half the tire usage.

What I think they'll do is have a driver run 4 stints, do a driver change, another driver will run 4 stints, and they'll change the tires then, after 8 stints.

If all goes well they could complete a 24 hour race with only 4 sets of tires. That would be astounding
 
So again I ask, what exactly is your problem with the Delta Wing?

I stated it above. I don't think I've "argued against everyone" - I've simply put across my opinion. I've simply responded to people's questions or criticism - quite normal in a forum discussion. Apparently you don't like that, maybe you shouldn't visit places where other opinions exist.
I'm not repeating everything for you. Its all above for you to read. You cannot directly compare with LMP1 and LMP2 because the DeltaWing can run almost anything it likes (within reason obviously and the ACO naturally does limit some things)!
LMP1 and 2 are heavily restricted in the area of ground effects. DeltaWing generates all of its downforce from ground effects (and its drag effeciencey). So to compare the DW with cars that use huge wings to generate downforce is pretty obviously a moot point. If you allowed LMP1 and 2 to run ground effects, the difference wouldn't be as great and I would like to find out what the DW's direct advantage is.

The point of the DW is not to prove ground effects are more effecient than wings. Everyone has known that for 40 years or more now. The point is its wheel base layout. Now if we have an equivelant car with the same specs using ground effects, a small engine and a low weight but with a traditional wide-front..then we can start directly comparing the two concepts. But considering LMP1 and 2 are heavily restricted in the areas of weight, power, engine capacity and aerodynamics - what can we really gather comparing them?

As I have said many times before I don't mind the DW existing and taking the 56th slot nor do I mind it and its designers trying to make a point. I'm interested in its progress and I will follow it like everyone else. I simply don't agree with the praise its been getting and the apparent benefits it brings. I question the comparisons being made and I like to ask why.

Why is it when I express a strong opposite opinion do people like to react in such an angry fashion? What exactly have I said that makes you so angry?

I really don't agree that aerodynamics mean much to roadcars. I did admit that it is a consideration. But its really quite a low requirement and low on the priorities for roadcars. I'd love for you to explain to me where ground effects come into consideration for the design of a Ford Fiesta or Toyota Prius.
 
Motoyama out (completed his mandatory 5 laps), he didn't push at all. And Franchitti returns. I guess they're following their schedule after the upset last night.

(I asked them on twitter if the drivers laps were already made and they replied "tonight", so I guess that's what is happening).

Not sure if Franchitti will try to do a quick lap or just do more systems-checks.
 
I keep coming in here for updates on the car and all I see are arguments. :indiff:

Such a radical car naturally polarises opinion and sparks such debates. Its not a bad thing, its great to have these discussions!
If we simply just stated news and updates, it would be boring.
 
But here an update :P

Maybe they're hiding their game, but it was now stated in radio lemans that the DW will not go fast tonight, they're only trying to:

a) make all their drivers do the mandatory laps;
b) add mileage to test and double test everything so the car lasts the race this weekend.

Apparently the DW guys think the car can easily lap La Sarthe at 3'38 (current best is 3'42)
 
They do seem to be taking it easy in Q3, last lap 4:00.085, fastest 3:54.897, I wish they would really open her up!
 
Maybe that's all shes got without pushing too hard on the turns. I'm still skeptical about how well it can take the corners. So maybe they are afraid to push it too hard in the corners. I would guess if there is any weakness with the car it would be that it is so narrow up front that its becomes an issue at the limit if you hit the curb and lose contact with the ground. Other than that, I think its a neat idea and very bold of them to pull it off.
 
Maybe that's all shes got without pushing too hard on the turns. I'm still skeptical about how well it can take the corners. So maybe they are afraid to push it too hard in the corners. I would guess if there is any weakness with the car it would be that it is so narrow up front that its becomes an issue at the limit if you hit the curb and lose contact with the ground. Other than that, I think its a neat idea and very bold of them to pull it off.

If the front hits a curb the rear is 50% on the grass
 
Maybe that's all shes got without pushing too hard on the turns. I'm still skeptical about how well it can take the corners. So maybe they are afraid to push it too hard in the corners. I would guess if there is any weakness with the car it would be that it is so narrow up front that its becomes an issue at the limit if you hit the curb and lose contact with the ground. Other than that, I think its a neat idea and very bold of them to pull it off.

Nope, she already posted a 3:42 in Q1. The team says the week link is the rain, she will not disperse the water from underneath the car, other than that they say she handles great.
 
I heard that about the rain, but didn't see any official confirmation of such a design problem (not saying it isn't true, just that I didn't see anything from the team about it).

But indeed there were teething problems last night. With the brakes apparently.

If you don't want to read the full link, here the report from Drivers and Lead Engineer.

Motoyama
“We had a solid run tonight, with everyone getting in their mandatory night laps.

“We still have a few little issues but, considering what has been achieved with this car in such a short space of time, it is remarkable that the car has performed as strongly as it has.

“Nissan has a huge presence here in Le Mans and, obviously, the Nissan DeltaWing has really been a huge part of that.

“I’ve been thrilled to be part of such an innovative program and it is quite remarkable to consider that we could finish the 24 Hours of Le Mans on half the fuel of a typical prototype.

“We still have a lot of work to do to achieve that, but everyone is working very hard on ensuring we give it our maximum effort.”

Franchitti
“I’m obviously delighted to get all three drivers qualified for the race on Saturday.

“We got our night laps in and worked very hard on the race car – not a qualifying car. We didn’t concentrate on qualifying speed at all – it was about race preparation.

“We do have some brake issues, which we are working through. We found some solutions at the end and Michael’s pace in the dark was good.

“We learned a great deal tonight and had our first real run in the dark.

“The guys have got a busy day ahead of them preparing the car, but now we’re all ready to take the Nissan DeltaWing racing on Saturday.

Krumm
“It was a great job of mine to not crash tonight!

“I was really pleased we all got qualified for the race tonight after losing so much time last night, when the fire extinguisher went off, shut down the electrics and we got stuck on course.

“Everyone got their laps in the dark and we had a relatively trouble-free run. We have some minor brake problems we’re working on before the race.

“These things are to be expected because we have had a really short preparation time for the car.

“All in all, it was a really good day.”

Bowlby
“Today we had a few silly issues with bleeding the brakes. We have some part of the system that is introducing air that we haven’t identified.

“The hydraulic system is one part of the car that is certainly not an innovation, but it is causing us trouble.

“This is not your normal 24 Hour race – it really is special. It will be very interesting in the race. I don’t have great expectations as to how we will go, because there are a load of simple things that can go wrong.

“On the other hand, we might surprise some people. We know the car can be very fast, we know it is very efficient and we know it races extremely well in traffic amongst other cars.

“Saturday, it will be time to get stuck in and see what happens.”


Michael Krumm is one funny guy :D
 
I heard that about the rain, but didn't see any official confirmation of such a design problem (not saying it isn't true, just that I didn't see anything from the team about it).

Info is spotty at best here in the states and I have been getting it in bits and pieces wherever I can, it is possible that came from someone outside the team, I can't recall now where I heard it.
 
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