HKS CT230R Tuner or Racer?

[GYMKHANA_RYAN4]

I complelty agree with you bro, this car can be easely outclassed when match on PP, but, by example if you set the server with HP and KG restriction, there will be big advantage driving the CT230R.

Think about it on its own classe (HP/KG) instead of PP compared with normal street tune car.

Here's an good example: The first month i had my hands on GT5, y was running a server under the name : EVO vs STI and we ran the test between ''normal'' tuned car VS the CT230R, and it was a real unfair advantage against these car. As soon a you bring these race car competing in the class its pretty obvious to see the performance gap vs normal car...

In some respects I agree with you but the PP system was introduced to be a more accurate way of making races closer, I don't really use the weight and power settings anymore (maybe that's just me).

If the weight and power were limited to the same as the top power and top weight for the HKS I still think it would be pretty equal with cars like the mclaren F1 and the HPA TT, simply due to the steering and top speed being better because of less downforce/drag and they don't understeer as much

 

[Counter_Z23]

In GT5, it is seen as being a tuner car simply because it is featured in the Tuning Car Championship. Since this is the GT5 Q&A section, I voted for "Tuner".

But the reason why I argue that it is a racer because I strongly believe that it is a race car in real life.

 

[Villain]

Does anyone else think that the poll results resemble a congressional district map?

Red states and blue states

 

[G.T.Ace]

You do realize that a car does not have to be built to a specific race class to be a race car, yes?
The Zonda R is a race car. It wasn't designed for any series. The Ferrari FXX is a race car. It wasn't designed for any series. They are both still race cars.

Actually, the FXX at least is officially listed as a Supercar as far as I know (or how I still like to call cars like this, "Hypercar"). I know that both aren't street legal and I know that Ferrari gives you the FXX if you want it for a certain event and of course they aren't "tuner cars", but I wouldn't call them "race cars" either. Just "non-street-legal-super(hyper)cars".

Back to the Evo:
I won't argue with anyone here (I already stated my opinion), the car is good, that's it.

 

[doctorrg]

Does anyone else think that the poll results resemble a congressional district map?

Red states and blue states

Are you saying the Democrats are right, but the Republicans are still winning?

 

[Villain]

Technically, the Democrats are left and the Republicans are correct.

 

[doctorrg]

Technically, the Democrats are left and the Republicans are correct.

With respect to your resemblance, does that mean red is correct?

 

[McLaren]

Actually, the FXX at least is officially listed as a Supercar as far as I know (or how I still like to call cars like this, "Hypercar"). I know that both aren't street legal and I know that Ferrari gives you the FXX if you want it for a certain event and of course they aren't "tuner cars", but I wouldn't call them "race cars" either. Just "non-street-legal-super(hyper)cars".

The FXX is a race car. Owners race them against each to get feedback for Ferrari. The FXX exists in the same realm as Zonda R, CCGT, & 918 RSR, all cars not currently eligible for any racing series, yet still race cars.

 

[Villain]

With respect to your resemblance, does that mean red is correct?

Okay. I don't want to get any more political or confused in this little fork that I probably sholdn't have placed on the road that is the HKS tuner/racer thread.

I'll leave it as CT230R is quite clearly a racer. This is a claim that has been supported by evidence and valid logic spreading over the many pages of this thread. If you still think this car counts a tuner, then you can continue to be wrong without hurting anyone, because this is a distinction that really doesn't matter. No one will die because of this, and if people want to ignore facts, who am I to stop them?

After several attempts to enlighten the masses, it appears that the likes of GYMKHANA_RYAN can only admit defeat so far as "it's niether" while simultaneously looking for obscure loopholes in our arguements or convoluted analogies to other cars which bear little or no relevance. Of course there hasn't been any valid evidence brought to the table to support this car as a "tuner" other than that it was made by HKS and it resembles an EVO VII. That's a pretty weak arguement if you ask me, but oh well.

TL;DR - It's clearly a racer. The case has been made over and over again. If you're still confused, read it again. If you still want to refute that this is a race car even after all of the evidence we brought, go ahead. We can't stop you from being wrong, no matter how hard we've tried.

 

[McLaren]

TL;DR - It's clearly a racer. The case has been made over and over again. If you're still confused, read it again. If you still want to refute that this is a race car even after all of the evidence we brought, go ahead. We can't stop you from being wrong, no matter how hard we've tried.

To add, let's put it this way.

If the car was developed & ran by Team Taison or Autobacs, and raced in the SuperGT GT300 class (as the car already partially exists to time attack with them), would it still be seen as a tuner car?

Because quite honestly, the HKS name & the fact they chose to use it to set blistering fast times is the only reason people argue it's a tuner. It's not too far off the WedsSport IS350 & that is most certainly a race car.

 

[doctorrg]

Okay. I don't want to get any more political or confused in this little fork that I probably sholdn't have placed on the road that is the HKS tuner/racer thread.

Fair enough. The rest of the post I'm simply going to ignore, as clearly, it wasn't directed at me. Though I, personally, don't see how it could possibly be a race car, as race cars are purpose built for races, and the HKS CT230R, quite clearly, wasn't. It was purpose built for time attacks, which is something that traditionally was born out of the tuner community, not the racer community. Not saying that the HKS CT230R is a tuner, though, just to be clear.

 

[G.T.Ace]

The FXX is a race car. Owners race them against each to get feedback for Ferrari. The FXX exists in the same realm as Zonda R, CCGT, & 918 RSR, all cars not currently eligible for any racing series, yet still race cars.

I stand corrected. 👍
I've read other reports stating the car is a Supercar/Hypercar, but I just looked it up again and it is indeed listed as a Racecar.

 

[McLaren]

Fair enough. The rest of the post I'm simply going to ignore, as clearly, it wasn't directed at me. Though I, personally, don't see how it could possibly be a race car, as race cars are purpose built for races, and the HKS CT230R, quite clearly, wasn't. It was purpose built for time attacks, which is something that traditionally was born out of the tuner community, not the racer community. Not saying the the HKS CT230R is a tuner, though, just to be clear.

Except racing is not necessarily done at the exact same moment between 2 cars. Time Attack is basically like Qualifying sessions; drivers are racing each other to set the fastest times.

The WRC is a racing series, yet the goal is there to set the fastest time between legs to win w/ cars built to race on multiple surfaces. I don't see how the CT230R is any different.

 

[doctorrg]

Except racing is not necessarily done at the exact same moment between 2 cars. Time Attack is basically like Qualifying sessions; drivers are racing each other to set the fastest times.

Actually, I can use my stock car for racing as well, does that make it a race car? I'd really like to know what kind of definition you're all using in order to consider something a race car. Traditionally, race cars are cars purpose built for a very particular type of racing. Traditionally speaking, a WRC isn't a race car either, it's a rally car.

Now, just so I understand this, how exactly do you define race car?

 

[Villain]

Though I, personally, don't see how it could possibly be a race car, as race cars are purpose built for races, and the HKS CT230R, quite clearly, wasn't. It was purpose built for time attacks, which is something that traditionally was born out of the tuner community, not the racer community. Not saying that the HKS CT230R is a tuner, though, just to be clear.

How is a Time Attack not a race? I don't understand this. Also, which community an event is born from is irrelevant. That's like saying that NASCARs aren't true race cars because they are born from prohibition and bootlegging.

Okay, I said I wouldn't go any further. I'm already repeating points that I and others have made. Please reference the previous posts made in this thread. The argument making the case for this car being a racer is quite clear. If you wish to debate any of those points that I and others have made, quote them and make your case.

Thanks.

 

[McLaren]

Actually, I can use my stock car for racing as well, does that make it a race car? I'd really like to know what kind of definition you're all using in order to consider something a race car. Traditionally, race cars are cars purpose built for a very particular type of racing.

Which your car isn't, so your car isn't a race car.

Time Attack is a form of racing; you are racing to set a particular time. The cars within it are not necessarily race cars, but the HKS is one of the few within it.

Traditionally speaking, a WRC isn't a race car either, it's a rally car.

Not my point. The WRC is seen as a motorsport of cars competing against each other to set times, which last I checked, is pretty much the whole point of Time Attack racing.

One could argue that rally cars are a distant form of race cars considering the extensive amount of work that has gone into some of them.

 

[Zenith]

Actually, I can use my stock car for racing as well, does that make it a race car? I'd really like to know what kind of definition you're all using in order to consider something a race car. Traditionally, race cars are cars purpose built for a very particular type of racing. Traditionally speaking, a WRC isn't a race car either, it's a rally car.

Now, just so I understand this, how exactly do you define race car?

Pedantic to the highest order...

NASCAR's aren't race cars! They're cars built for nassing!

We've defined a race car very thoroughly throughout this thread. Go read the previous pages.

 

[doctorrg]

Okay, I said I wouldn't go any further. I'm already repeating points that I and others have made. Please reference the previous posts made in this thread. The argument making the case for this car being a racer is quite clear. If you wish to debate any of those points that I and others have made, quote them and make your case.

Reading through this thread, it seems all that's happening is that the definition of "race" in "race car" is stretched in order to be able to call the HKS CT230R a race car. Well, if I am to stretch the definition of "race car" that much, then I'll have to say that quite a few tuners are actually "race cars". There's nothing really to debate here, if I'm going to further stretch the definition, I could call quite an array of tuned cars race cars. If you ask me, it's all a little silly. But well, if that's what it takes to be right, eh?

 

[McLaren]

Reading through this thread, it seems all that's happening is that the definition of "race" in "race car" is stretched in order to be able to call the HKS CT230R a race car. Well, if I am to stretch the definition of "race car" that much, then I'll have to say that quite a few tuners are actually "race cars". There's nothing really to debate here, if I'm going to further stretch the definition, I could call quite an array of tuned cars race cars. If you ask me, it's all a little silly. But well, if that's what it takes to be right, eh?

Um, many of the quickest cars in Time Attack are no longer tuner cars as well. Cars like the Garage Evolution RX7, Scorch S15, or the infamous Chris Rado TC are now built to same degree as full-fledged racing cars, even going as far as to alter the body work into a more aerodynamic design.

Time Attack may have been originally founded by tuner companies to compete, by the teams dominating it are building race cars to do so. The Top 5 cars within the World Time Attack series share almost nothing with the production car they may have started from. Some of them only need minor work to become eligible GT300 cars as the SuperGT usually has some relaxed rules regarding the cars performance capabilities.

 

[Villain]

Race : Competition to see who is quickest from point A to point B. Also known as the Start/Finish line(s). Come on, really?

And yes, there can be several "tuners" that can be classed as race cars as well. If you read the past pages closely, you would've seen that I made this point already.

No, I say that all race cars are race cars. A car that races is a race car regardless of whether or not it is street legal. Many people have street legal Miatas which have undergone performance upgrades/tuning and they will drive them to a track and race them. Those are race cars as well. Thy are not purpose-built race cars like the HKS CT230R. A tuner can very well be a racer, but that does not go both ways and the CT230R does not fit into that category.

It's a race car. Period. Also, see how I quoted the point I was arguing? Please try to do that if you're going to refute a point that we're making, otherwise you're just generalizing our comments or putting words in our mouths. Thanks.

 

[doctorrg]

Which your car isn't, so your car isn't a race car.

Quite a sensible assessment, I agree.

Time Attack is a form of racing; you are racing to set a particular time. The cars within it are not necessarily race cars, but the HKS is one of the few within it.

And that's the heart of the matter. Time attack is a "form of racing", and, as such, cars purpose built for time attacks are "race cars" by definition. Well, if "time attack cars" are "race cars", then there really is no argument to be had, or? The HKS CT230R is a "race car" by definition.

Not my point. The WRC is seen as a motorsport of cars competing against each other to set times, which last I checked, is pretty much the whole point of Time Attack racing.

One could argue that rally cars are a distant form of race cars considering the extensive amount of work that has gone into some of them.

There it is again. A "form of race cars". And that's the whole argument, isn't it? If something is purpose built for a "form of race", it is a "race car". That's what makes a rally car a race car, right?

Or did I misunderstand anything here?

 

[G.T.Ace]

Just a question, but were these Time Attacks real, official race events, or just stuff for Best Motoring/the official Tsukuba track record?

 

[doctorrg]

Race : Competition to see who is quickest from point A to point B. Also known as the Start/Finish line(s). Come on, really?

I'm sure you're well aware that that's a very informal definition of "race" with respect to car racing. Right?

And yes, there can be several "tuners" that can be classed as race cars as well. If you read the past pages closely, you would've seen that I made this point already.

But they're not. That's the whole point.

Unless, of course, you stretch the definition of "race" enough to fit in just about anything. And that's the entire point, isn't it?

It's a race car. Period. Also, see how I quoted the point I was arguing? Please try to do that if you're going to refute a point that we're making, otherwise you're just generalizing our comments or putting words in our mouths. Thanks.

Umm, you have been reading my posts, right?

Edit: Apologies, I've just realized that you couldn't possibly have addressed me here. Please ignore.

 

[Villain]

Time attack is a "form of racing", and, as such, cars purpose built for time attacks are "race cars" by definition. Well, if "time attack cars" are "race cars", then there really is no argument to be had, or? The HKS CT230R is a "race car" by definition.

There. That's it. That's the whole point. You see the light. I'm moving on now.

 

[doctorrg]

Pedantic to the highest order...

NASCAR's aren't race cars! They're cars built for nassing!

We've defined a race car very thoroughly throughout this thread. Go read the previous pages.

To be pedantic again, what you should have said is that you've re-defined what a "race car" is very thoroughly throughout this thread, and based on that definition the HKS CT230R is a race car. Yes, with that even I agree.

 

[doctorrg]

There. That's it. That's the whole point. You see the light. I'm moving on now.

I'm way too pedantic to see the light. A "time attack" was never ever classifiable as a "race" in any meaningful sense of the term (as used in car racing). I do agree, though, if I take the informal understanding of race you're all using, a lot of cars can be called race cars that really aren't, the HKS CT230R included.

 

[McLaren]

And that's the heart of the matter. Time attack is a "form of racing", and, as such, cars purpose built for time attacks are "race cars" by definition. Well, if "time attack cars" are "race cars", then there really is no argument to be had, or? The HKS CT230R is a "race car" by definition.
There it is again. A "form of race cars. And that's the whole argument, isn't it? If something is purpose built for a "form of race", it is a "race car". That's what makes a rally car a race car, right?

Or did I misunderstand anything here?

You have changed your stance & my argument. This is what you originally said,

Though I, personally, don't see how it could possibly be a race car, as race cars are purpose built for races, and the HKS CT230R, quite clearly, wasn't. It was purpose built for time attacks, which is something that traditionally was born out of the tuner community, not the racer community

You said the HKS CT230R can not be a race car because it was purpose built for Time Attacks, which insinuates that Time Attack events are not a form racing b/c the cars within it are not race cars.

My argument was not to define the car as a race car. It was to point out that Time Attack events are indeed a form of racing just as the WRC is, as again, a race does not have to between 2 cars at an exact moment.

The cars within' are not necessarily racing cars because (you, yourself said WRC cars are rally cars, not race cars) TA usually have multiple classes defining eligibility. I do not consider the man who occasionally tracks his Miata w/ a roll cage & some sticky tires, and then spends the rest of his time driving it around town on road-spec tires as a race car, which is what a lot of TA cars are quite close to, i.e. the tuners.

The cars within Time Attack series' that are the race cars are the ones dominating the series. Somewhere along the road of tuners, someone realized that if they wanted to beat the competition, they were going to have to resort to high downforce wings, extreme weight saving strategies, & sleek, wide bodies for aerodynamic gains.

The result ended up in teams building purpose-built race cars b/c they realized that was the only way to go even faster. As time as progressed, these cars have gotten further & further away from a tuner & a lot closer to the cars you see in the SuperGT. In fact, here's the CT230R racing the Weds Sport IS350 during an event.

The SuperGT cars are amongst the fastest race cars in the world & for a "tuner" to keep up with one, it'd have to become a race car itself.
Edit* Regarding the building process of some of the TA cars like the HKS, they are somewhat a mix of SuperGT & FIA GT regulations.

 

[niky]

It was purpose built for time attacks, which is something that traditionally was born out of the tuner community, not the racer community.

The NASCAR series was born from bootlegging. As a venue for bootleggers to make a lot of money running laps instead of rum.

The very first cars were built to go fast, cobbled together from production cars and go-faster parts. Yet they were some of the first real "racecars" in the USA.

NASCAR, V8 Supercars and other series started with nearly production vehicles. Which, at one point, became one of the driving reasons for the horsepower wars, and lead to a number of manufacturers "lying" about output.

The WRC production class is the reason STIs and EVOs over the years have been so potent... these cars were built to race.

-

I think the reason people are confused is because of the false dichotomy.

A "tuner car" is not a "tuner car" and nothing else. It can also be a "sports car", a "race car" or a "track car."

A "race car" is not a "race car" and nothing else. It can also be a "rally car", a "street-legal car" or even a "production car".

Traditionally, race cars are cars purpose built for a very particular type of racing. Traditionally speaking, a WRC isn't a race car either, it's a rally car.

A "race car" is purpose-built... but not from the ground up. Only the top echelons of racing, such as Formula 1 and ALMS, use purpose-built cars that include no components (or nearly no components) from production vehicles.

A rally car is a race car. It is purpose-built for racing. It is as much a race car as a DTM or SuperGT car. Races are contests of speed. Whoever goes fastest wins. It doesn't matter if the vehicles are not on the same track... otherwise drag racing and the "Race of Champions" would not be considered racing...

I just want to know people's opinions on whether the car should be allowed in these 'no race car' rooms so that I can actually be at ease with enjoying driving/racing this car online (Because it's fun).

In Gran Turismo terms, considering the active aero front and rear, and the level of the aero... "race car" in practice, though it is categorized as a "tuner car"... though many "tuner cars" have incredible levels of aero compared to what you can get with "regular" versions of the same car. But on faster tracks, the contribution of aero to PP means that it is a handicap to have too much of it. Personally, it's an argument for the use of PP as a limiting factor... since aero is taken into account in PP calculation.

 

[Villain]

niky

 

[doctorrg]

You have changed your stance & my argument. This is what you originally said,

You said the HKS CT230R can not be a race car because it was purpose built for Time Attacks, which insinuates that Time Attack events are not a form racing b/c the cars within it are not race cars.

No, that's not what I've said at all. I've said:

"Though I, personally, don't see [snip]"

See? I didn't say the HKS CT230R can not be a race car, I said I, personally, don't see how it could be. Can you see the difference? Neither did I change my stance. My stance is that if you do consider a time attack to be a race, then the car in question is a race car. But, my stance equally is that a time attack is not a race given my understanding of race with reference to race cars.

As to changing your argument...

My argument was not to define the car as a race car. It was to point out that Time Attack events are indeed a form of racing just as the WRC is, as again, a race does not have to between 2 cars at an exact moment.

And I've made two points here. Firstly, just because something can be considered a "form of racing", that doesn't make it a race in reference to race in race car. And yes, I am referring to a formal understanding of what a race is here, i.e. the type of race events you purpose built race cars for.

The other point was whether rally cars are actually considered race cars in the first place.

The rest of the post doesn't really state anything I'd have to disagree with.