Honda to quit F1? - Now with added Brawn GP

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Sounds to me like the FIA is corrupt. Obviously they do not want a team that doesn't even have any sponsors to be the in the winners circle every week. The FIA needs to put up or shut up--Honda finally designed a car that's better, and Brawn is campaigning it better. Why do I hear about all this corrupt-sounding stuff coming from Formula One all the time?

Just race the damn cars.
 
Yeah, this is a blatant attack on Brawn.

These teams all had the opportunity to come up with the best design they could, and before today all the teams fit squarely within the rules. No team had an advantage, as they all followed the rules and did what they could. But obviously the FIA is not about to have one of the losing designers from last year--Honda--and a new team with a funny name that doesn't even have sponsors to be the leader this year. So they simply changed the rules at the last minute it order to punish one team for simply being better, while following the rules. This is like a man at his job doing his job better than everyone else, and getting fired for it! It's corrupt, and that's the bottom line.

I would say Ecclestone and the FIA are not working from quite the same script.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7951354.stm
This article even says that Ecclestone is supporting Brawn's success! Ecclestone supports it, the FIA wants it gone. You can't convince me that the FIA isn't blatantly punishing Brawn for simply being faster.
 
I’m actually not certain the Brawn cars are illegal in this case. I’d obviously need to see the car in reference to the technical drawings, but as long as certain parts fit within these new boxes a design like the Brawn diffuser may be legal.

I’m not sure about the Williams one though.
 
Yes, it's all a conspiracy.

[/sarcasm]

See, the thing is that the FIA sets out new rules for the teams to follow. But because designing an F1 car is as much of an art as it is a science, sometimes teams come up with solutions to the problem of finding more speed that the FIA never thought of. The fact that they amend their rules after the fact does not mean they're attacking a team with the intention of crippling them simply for being innovative. It's like the Brabham fan-powered car: innovative, but it gave the team such an advantage that no-one could get close. A lot of people here seem to think there is a conspiracy by the FIA to keep the teams where they are for some absurd reason, but I think that's as far from the truth as can be possible. Yes, Brawn suffer from this. And while it might be nice to see a private team come from nothing to having everything, it's hardly to the betterment of the sport in such a way that the sport is competitive. Yes, Brawn's phenomenal results would be something to make the 2009 season worth remembering simply because they one-upped the likes of Maranello and Woking, it would herald a return to the Age of Schumacher when no-one else won.

I guarantee you that is McLaren had never been found guilty of industrial espionage in 2007, most of the people here wouldn't be thinking the way they are.
 
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I guarantee you that is McLaren had never been found guilty of industrial espionage in 2007, most of the people here wouldn't be thinking the way they are.

That and the fact Renault were also found guilty of the same offence - but at a far worse level - and had no action taken against them. And then the spurious stewarding with the rules being changed after-the-fact to justify the decisions...
 
My biggest gripe is that it was done barely a week before the season begins. For teams that are breaching the amended regulations – what are they supposed to do? Design, build, and test a new diffuser then ship it to Australia?

They probably have some simple diffusers already prototyped from earlier in the development phase but that’s hardly the point, they wouldn’t be remotely optimised.
 
I'm now a bit confused about this ... have the Brawn, Williams and Toyota difusers become illegal?

Checking the news today at F1.live I don't see it being mentioned, and the only parts mentioned to be removed are the "shark fins":

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090319085650.shtml
Yeah, what is going on here?

All this confusion arises from this post which says the Brawn diffusers were banned, but with no story, and no link, to back it up

Uh oh (again lol):

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/regulations/Pages/FIAFormulaOneWorldChampionship.aspx

ARTICLE 3 : BODYWORK AND DIMENSIONS

(Ammemndment 18/03/09 (Mav)):

One of the purposes of the regulations under Article 3 below is to minimize the detrimental effect that the wake of
a car may have on a following car.
Furthermore, infinite precision can be assumed on certain dimensions provided it is clear that such an assumption
is not being made in order to circumvent or subvert the intention of the relevant regulation.


FIA have banned the Brawn diffusers.....

Does anyone else find this pretty dumb considering how close we are to the start of the season and how costs are supposedly being cut?
Links to the story are good and it proves you didn't just make it up, or misinterpreted something you read.
 
There is a possiblity FIA is corrupt and dont want a sponsorless small team car winning their races, as someone said earlier.

makes me sick, sick of the politics dominating F1, as keef said

RACE THE DAMN CARS.
 
I don't have neither the english vocabulary nor the technical ability to discuss this, but I just checked the forums in "f1technical" and someone said there that The BrawnGP difuser could still be legal, but the williams and Toyota ones are questionable (regarding these new rules).

Check it out, it has great pictures (alomost close-up) of the difusers in question:

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6321&start=60


EDIT: checking again, I noticed Metar posts there also, so maybe he is the one who can clear up all this :D
 
That and the fact Renault were also found guilty of the same offence - but at a far worse level - and had no action taken against them. And then the spurious stewarding with the rules being changed after-the-fact to justify the decisions...
Like I said: rules are changed after the decision to clear up confusion and prevent the incident from happening again. Not because of some agenda whereby the FIA is trying to make it easier for one team to win.
There is a possiblity FIA is corrupt and dont want a sponsorless small team car winning their races, as someone said earlier.
If they are as corrupt as you seem to think, how come it is only limited to Formula One? Your argument is disproven by the fact that if Brawn start winning races, sponsors will be queueing up to plaster their brands across Brawn's sidepods, and they'll be willing to pay top dollar for the privelige. Killing Brawn's chances beforehand makes no sense because it restricts the flow of money into the sport.

Why are you people so intent on the FIA being a bunch of naughty men who slip about so readily? Okay, so McLaren got caught with Ferrai's technical documents andwere prosecuted. But you seem to be forgetting that there was a trial involved in there; the case was heard in a court of law. And Hamilton was penalised a few times in 2008, notably at Spa and Fuji; if you ask me, they were legitimate penalties.

The only conspiracy here is the insane desire for there to be a conspiracy at all. Where is your evidence of wrong-doing? Everything you have is specious at best and barely rates as circumstantial. Take the penalty in Belgium as an example: do you have any idea how much it would take for the FIA to pay off the race marshalls? Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's more than one race marshall, which means there's more people to pay off, and the more money you're going to need to do it. When you start throwing such large sums around, somebody notices very quickly. All it takes is one conscience and your conspiracy doesn't work.

As has been pointed out, mainstream news sources - Formula1.com, GP Update and the like - aren't reporting Brawn's diffuser as being illegal. The closest article is Whiting suggesting three of the teams have found a loophole. In fact, I've noticed a correlation: the accusations levelled against Brawn have only really started to come about since McLaren managed to find some pace. But it's not a case of Brawn getting slower, it's McLaren getting faster, and suddenly people are seeing shadows in broad daylight.

Again, I am compelled to ask: why are you all so very desperate to see the FIA as corrupt and conspiring amongst themselves? Have you even considered the consequences of such accusations being true? You don't just usher in a new regime at the top; look at what happened when News of the World were reporting Mosely's Nazi fetishism: entire national bodies were boycotting the FIA and calling for a Vote of No Confidence against him. If the FIA were shown to be corrupt, international motorsport as we know it could and probably would fall apart.

And it might not recover.
 
Like I said: rules are changed after the decision to clear up confusion and prevent the incident from happening again. Not because of some agenda whereby the FIA is trying to make it easier for one team to win.

I only said it didn't help the image...

Look at it this way:
McLaren employee alleged to have Ferrari's 2006 car blueprints on his laptop. McLaren banned for the 2007 season from Constructor's Championship with a suspended ban for 2008 pending similarities between their car and Ferrari's.
Renault found to have entire previous 2 seasons' McLaren car on their mainframe. No action taken.

It's not hard to see why people will draw conclusions from this - Renault's offence was later than McLaren's, easier to prove, more widespread and much, much larger. Yet McLaren were banned and Renault were not.


Then stewards disqualify a McLaren driver to give a win to Ferrari - the FIA later change the rules so that the disqualification is justified - while ignoring countless other similar offences by ever other driver. And a STR driver is penalised when he is hit by a Ferrari.

Again, it's not hard to see why people may think there's one rule for one team and another for everyone else. And the announcement that "formula one" pays that one team a seven figure sum every year to compete, while other teams pay an entry fee (regardless of the technicalities about where the money originates in relation to the several official bodies of the sport) doesn't help either.


They just don't help themselves. Perhaps they don't care?
 
They just don't help themselves. Perhaps they don't care?
Maybe it's because Ferrari have an image themselves that people wouldn't mind seeing quashed. After all, there was a time when Michael Schumacher was so hard to beat that the only person who could catch him was his team-mate so much so that you basically watched to see who came third and whether the Minardis and other minor teams might provide some accident-prone comedy to liven up the middle of the race. People want to see someone else succeed in the sport, and they probably wouldn't get too broken up if Ferrari went back to their days pre-Schumacher when they were middling at best and the sport was dominated by the McLarens and Williams cars.

Maybe Ferrari are the proverbial teacher's pet, but that doesn't prove the FIA are corrupt, or even favouring them in their decisions. I just don't understand why people are throwing these wild accusations about with reckless abandon when all they have as evidence for their argument is a mid-race incident that divided opinions on the forums. Mutton dressed as lamb if ever I saw it, and that is me being generous.
 
I just don't understand why people are throwing these wild accusations about with reckless abandon when all they have as evidence for their argument is several mid-race and mid-season incidents that divided opinions on the forums. Mutton dressed as lamb if ever I saw it, and that is me being generous.

Fixed! Now do you see where we are coming from?
 
Fixed! Now do you see where we are coming from?
But it's not evdence! "Evidence" is clear proof of something having happened; in this context, clear proof that the FIA is corrupt. You cannot present the passing incident at Spa as evidence of anyhting other than a disputed penalty. If Hamilton had let Raikkonen back through an then caught him half a lap later only to find he was penalised for it, that would be evidence of wrong-doing. But as it stands, it is not evidence. You don't even know what the wrong-doing is, much less show proof of it happening. What is the FIA doing? Accepting bribes from Ferrari? Paying race marshalls off to mke a certain decision? Show me a clear-cut example of where, when and how the FIA have been conspiring against one team in favour of another. And by clear-cut, I don't mean a decision by the stewards that divided opinions, like any of the penalties at Spa or Fuji. Show me something that proves beyond resonable doubt that the FIA passed a decision or took action that was intended to restrict a team's ability to be competitive in favour of another team. All you've done so far is quoted me and changed a few words around and expected that I suddenly understand where you're coming from.

You cannot conclusively prove that Brawn's diffuser has been banned, much less prove that it was banned with the intenton of slowing Brawn down. No major news sources are reporting that the diffuser was even being questioned by the Powers That Be, and that's before you get to the part where none of the said news sources are reporting that the diffuser has been banned outright.

You have no proof! You have nothing, nothing more than an opinion that the FIA are guilty of some kind of wrong-doing simly because you disagree with them. It's like trying to play pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey, except that there is no donkey to begin with, but you remained convinced that if you squint your eyes and tilt your head just so, a donkey will be visible somewhere on the wall if you know where to look. You make one pretty poor investigator, largely because you're building your case out of you opinion rather than solid, believable, verifable fact. Give me something to work with here: don't just change a few words around and expect that it is more than enough to make me change my stance here, because believe me right now when I say it's not ging to happen. Give me proof; show me a case where the FIA have clearly taken action - any action - against a team for no reason other than to favour another. I'm willing to bet that you can't do it. You can't even define how the FIA are corrupt.

So go ahead: take me up on my challenge. I'm dying to be proven wrong here, but the best you can do is throw specious arguments at me. Right now, I feel like the jury in a murder trial and the prosecution's argument consists solely of the defendant being guilty because he owns a kitchen knife when the vicitm was stabbed with a kitchen knife. Not specifically the defendant's kitchen knife, but because kitchen knives are involved in this case, the prosecution expect that it will b enough to convict the accused.

Oh, and by the way, the more you throw this useless garbage at me or change a few words of my post and expect me to suddenly side with you, the more likely it is that I'm not only going to demand more of you to prove your so-called case, but I'm also going to be harder and harder to please when you do give me something to work with. Because I'm a firm believer in Ockham's Razor, the notion that when you have two or more conflcting ideas, the one that requires less stretch of the imagination is more likely to be true. In this case, we have 1) the FIA being corrupt and favouring one team over all the others because of a handful of penalties to one team and the reputation of the other as well as a massive payment to said reputable team made by someone who was not the FIA; and 2) a handful of penalties actually relating to racing incidents, and while perhaps the decisions were not made in the best interest of the sport, they were made based on the evidence at hand. You can see why the latter requests far less of a stretch of the imgination than the former; it doesn't involving some vast-reaching conspiracy (and most of those in real life - the Gemstone File, the New World Order et al - are proven to be untrue).

So now you see where I'm coming from. And I didn't have to edit two wods of your post and expect you to take what I say as Gospel truth. Your move.
 
I'm a firm believer in Ockham's Razor, the notion that when you have two or more conflcting ideas, the one that requires less stretch of the imagination is more likely to be true.

Err, no.

Occam's Razor (my preferred spelling, but yours is also fine) states that you should not needlessly multiply entities. Generally this is interpreted as, where an outcome is seen, the simplest series of events which explain all the observations of that outcome is probably the correct one.

It's a subtle difference, but there is still a difference.


I still can't think of any logical explanation for the difference noted here:


Famine
McLaren employee alleged to have Ferrari's 2006 car blueprints on his laptop. McLaren banned for the 2007 season from Constructor's Championship with a suspended ban for 2008 pending similarities between their car and Ferrari's.

Renault found to have entire previous 2 seasons' McLaren car on their mainframe. No action taken.

...that doesn't include bias in one or other directions. Not necessarily pro-Ferrari, you understand.

In this case, we have 1) the FIA being corrupt and favouring one team over all the others because of a handful of penalties to one team and the reputation of the other as well as a massive payment to said reputable team made by someone who was not the FIA; and 2) a handful of penalties actually relating to racing incidents, and while perhaps the decisions were not made in the best interest of the sport, they were made based on the evidence at hand. You can see why the latter requests far less of a stretch of the imgination than the former; it doesn't involving some vast-reaching conspiracy (and most of those in real life - the Gemstone File, the New World Order et al - are proven to be untrue).

Taking Spa as the example, and Occam's Razor as the test...

1) FIA-employed stewards at an FIA event ordered to do what the FIA say or the FIA take their FIA event away (again). FIA changes rules to fit and forces penalties to stand. Requires one entity - "FIA" - to behave in accordance to (what are supposed to be) its own interests.
2) Three people make exactly the same mistake. FIA change rulebook after the fact, but also make the mistake of applying punishment retroactively (uniquely) and refuse appeals. Requires four entities - "FIA" and three stewards - to all make unchecked, uncorrected and uncorrectable errors.

Both explain how one driver is punished retrospectively according to a rule which was never there, while every other driver escaped punishment for the same rule quoted as it existed at the time.


Not that I'm necessarily saying that either is the real scenario, you understand. Just applying the real, subtlely different version of the Razor to the proposed example. For a start, neither adequately explain why FIA-employed Charlie Whiting told the McLaren team that there was no issue with Hamilton's manouevre.
 
Hey, this is the BrawnGP thread, not the "SPA - Ferrari International Assistance - Conspiracy theories" thread and debate ll over again ... :D


So far, still no news about difusers in all F1 sites I know. This is really annoying. Will BrawnGP get their cars to Melbourne as they were in Barcelona and Jerez? WIll they face a possible disqualification?
 
We should use Occam's Razor to cut all the Ferrari/FIA conspiracy stuff out...
 
We should use Occam's Razor to cut all the Ferrari/FIA conspiracy stuff out...

You would say that - you're employed by them. You even drive an Italian car which is pretending to be French, sewing up the Ferrari/Renault connection in the conspiracy neatly.

AND there's two As and an N in Ferrari/Renault. AND four Rs - the FOURTH letter of the alphabet is "D". A-HA!
 
Links to the story are good and it proves you didn't just make it up, or misinterpreted something you read.

There wasn't a story, mostly because I never said there was, merely (as I stated) that the FIA had ammended the rules.
Though I probably should have worded it better and said "I believe they have banned the Brawn diffusers" but I kind of assumed that people would have realised I had interpreted this from what I read of the rule ammendments rather than a story I had picked up (in which case I would have naturally linked the story).
 
You would say that - you're employed by them. You even drive an Italian car which is pretending to be French, sewing up the Ferrari/Renault connection in the conspiracy neatly.

AND there's two As and an N in Ferrari/McLaren. AND four Rs - the FOURTH letter of the alphabet is "D". A-HA!


Fixed.

Also, From a BrawnGP fan point of view, the FIA "Axis of Evil" is found, and if daan is involved, no less is the Ferrari And Mclaren Intimate Negotiations Enterprise.

As you can see, Ferrari/McLaren have one F, one M, one I and one N. Sure we can find two As and two Es, I guess the "spare" A is the one used by Scaff, not sure where the "spare" E has gone to.

:D
 
But it's not evdence! "Evidence" is clear proof of something having happened; in this context, clear proof that the FIA is corrupt. You cannot present the passing incident at Spa as evidence of anyhting other than a disputed penalty. If Hamilton had let Raikkonen back through an then caught him half a lap later only to find he was penalised for it, that would be evidence of wrong-doing. But as it stands, it is not evidence. You don't even know what the wrong-doing is, much less show proof of it happening. What is the FIA doing? Accepting bribes from Ferrari? Paying race marshalls off to mke a certain decision? Show me a clear-cut example of where, when and how the FIA have been conspiring against one team in favour of another. And by clear-cut, I don't mean a decision by the stewards that divided opinions, like any of the penalties at Spa or Fuji. Show me something that proves beyond resonable doubt that the FIA passed a decision or took action that was intended to restrict a team's ability to be competitive in favour of another team. All you've done so far is quoted me and changed a few words around and expected that I suddenly understand where you're coming from.

You cannot conclusively prove that Brawn's diffuser has been banned, much less prove that it was banned with the intenton of slowing Brawn down. No major news sources are reporting that the diffuser was even being questioned by the Powers That Be, and that's before you get to the part where none of the said news sources are reporting that the diffuser has been banned outright.

You have no proof! You have nothing, nothing more than an opinion that the FIA are guilty of some kind of wrong-doing simly because you disagree with them. It's like trying to play pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey, except that there is no donkey to begin with, but you remained convinced that if you squint your eyes and tilt your head just so, a donkey will be visible somewhere on the wall if you know where to look. You make one pretty poor investigator, largely because you're building your case out of you opinion rather than solid, believable, verifable fact. Give me something to work with here: don't just change a few words around and expect that it is more than enough to make me change my stance here, because believe me right now when I say it's not ging to happen. Give me proof; show me a case where the FIA have clearly taken action - any action - against a team for no reason other than to favour another. I'm willing to bet that you can't do it. You can't even define how the FIA are corrupt.

So go ahead: take me up on my challenge. I'm dying to be proven wrong here, but the best you can do is throw specious arguments at me. Right now, I feel like the jury in a murder trial and the prosecution's argument consists solely of the defendant being guilty because he owns a kitchen knife when the vicitm was stabbed with a kitchen knife. Not specifically the defendant's kitchen knife, but because kitchen knives are involved in this case, the prosecution expect that it will b enough to convict the accused.

Oh, and by the way, the more you throw this useless garbage at me or change a few words of my post and expect me to suddenly side with you, the more likely it is that I'm not only going to demand more of you to prove your so-called case, but I'm also going to be harder and harder to please when you do give me something to work with. Because I'm a firm believer in Ockham's Razor, the notion that when you have two or more conflcting ideas, the one that requires less stretch of the imagination is more likely to be true. In this case, we have 1) the FIA being corrupt and favouring one team over all the others because of a handful of penalties to one team and the reputation of the other as well as a massive payment to said reputable team made by someone who was not the FIA; and 2) a handful of penalties actually relating to racing incidents, and while perhaps the decisions were not made in the best interest of the sport, they were made based on the evidence at hand. You can see why the latter requests far less of a stretch of the imgination than the former; it doesn't involving some vast-reaching conspiracy (and most of those in real life - the Gemstone File, the New World Order et al - are proven to be untrue).

So now you see where I'm coming from. And I didn't have to edit two wods of your post and expect you to take what I say as Gospel truth. Your move.


Firstly I would like to apologise for editing your post, that is not something I usually do and would not like it to be done to any of mine.

You refer to there being no 'evidence'. I never said there was any concrete 'gospel truth evidence'. Your post said that there was a mid-race incident, when in fact there has been several throughout the last number of years. I do not expect you to be convinced that the FIA are somehow corrupt or that they are biased towards Ferrari, I'm not even fully convinced that they are, I was merely pointing out that there has been several suspicious incidents which have caused people to take this view and that maybe you could recognise those views.
 
After reading reports that Red Bull WILL file a protest against Brawn for having an illegal diffuser, I was hoping someone might be able to explain to me - in layman's terms - IF the diffuser could actually be illegal and and HOW it is, or whether tis is simply a case of the teams seeing Brawn's performance and trying to get it banned because they're light years faster than everyone else.
 
After reading reports that Red Bull WILL file a protest against Brawn for having an illegal diffuser, I was hoping someone might be able to explain to me - in layman's terms - IF the diffuser could actually be illegal and and HOW it is, or whether tis is simply a case of the teams seeing Brawn's performance and trying to get it banned because they're light years faster than everyone else.

I may be way off, so someone please correct me if/where I am wrong:

If you look at this post from the Australian Formula 1 Grand Prix 2009 thread you will see that the air flow is split in the center area. This creates more downforce and more turbulence for the car behind. They are saying that the upper part of it is part of the crash box structure, not the diffuser. If it was part of the diffuser, its illegal. That is why some are complaining.

My personal opinion is that it is a clever interpretation of the rules, but I don't like that fact that it will create more turbulence for the car behind, negating some of the changes to enhance overtaking.
 
It'd be nice ... but if true, I don't think we'll see a proper livery until Sepang. Brawn's cars showed up at Albert Park in a blank state - though they did hae their new racing numbers of 22 and 23 (Force India had ordered their merchandise with numbers 20 and 21, so the FIA allowed them to retain those numbers) - and it would take time to both design and apply a livery. Liveries these days involve lots of decals; I recall reading an article that when Renault first adopted ING's name, the colour scheme across the car required six kilograms of decals. However, if Virgin isn't a title sponsor of Brawn, it may be easy to come up with something overnight. Of course, they may stil be the primary sponsor, just not a title sponsor; Force India doesn't have one.
 
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