GTPNewsWire
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This is the discussion thread for a recent post on GTPlanet:
This article was published by Andrew Evans (@Famine) on October 2nd, 2020 in the Formula One category.
Honda to Withdraw from F1 at End of 2021 Season
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Well this isn't good for the sport at all, but not really surprising. Because the current PU manufacturers were allowed to lobby and create the rules it means nobody is going to come in and join, it's just not worth it. It's not like the old days when a new manufacturer could come in with some prior expertise and knowledge and have a competitive engine within 2 years, like BMW for example. Now as we've seen from Renault and Honda, it's going to take a good five years to get close to the current teams which is a huge time and money investment. Even with Ferrari this year we're seeing how hard it is to go back to the drawing board when you've already been making decent PUs for a few years (albeit a bit illegally).
Make no mistake, F1 could be in serious trouble in the next few years without serious change for the better, and no, I don't think the 2022 regs are the answer because again, the current teams have lobbied and wangled the rules to suit them, not newcomers.
Good luck Mr Domenicali.
Make no mistake, F1 could be in serious trouble in the next few years without serious change for the better, and no, I don't think the 2022 regs are the answer because again, the current teams have lobbied and wangled the rules to suit them, not newcomers.
Good luck Mr Domenicali.
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- soltonatural
That's terrible news for Red Bull. And bad for F1 in general.
Maybe they will switch to Aston Martin now?
Maybe they will switch to Aston Martin now?
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No way Ferrari or Merc would ever run a spec PU, even just the hybrid. That's a non-starter.
As for simplification that was on the table, removing the MGU-H, but all the current teams stopped it from happening because of how much money they'd put into it. Which is the problem I already mentioned, the current teams have too much power to shape the PU regulations to suit them and stop competitors coming in.
I don't really follow it but I understand it's similar to what happened in LMP1. The then current manufacturers dictated the rules, nobody else could afford to join and compete, then slowly but surely all the current teams left, until only one was left and they had to come up with something new.
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- mustafur
Not convinced they wouldn't agree to it, as long as you allow an open formula option on some of it(like the ICE which to be frank is most of the power), it's the best compromise to allow the 3rd parties in because your not going to get companies like cosworth that would be competitive in an Hybrid project compared to a manufacturer as a opposed to an ICE build.
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All of the current PU manufacturers have put millions into their own units though, both Mercedes and Ferrari have started integrating MGU-H and other aspects into their road cars. They're never going to agree to scrapping all of that and running a spec one.
Which as I say is the crux of the problem, given the power to influence the rules the current PU manufacturers are always going to vote on their own interests. We as fans do, and the FIA do, but the current teams certainly don't want someone like Cosworth to be able to walk in and be competitive spending a few million. They want to protect their investments since 2013.
This is always the problem when you give the current teams so much power and control and in turn that results in crazily complicated PUs.
I really don't know what the answer is here.
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These news today had me remember when the same thing happened in 1992,
and the most emotional interview with Senna I ever saw.
He spoke his mind about Honda exiting F1 at the time and you could just see it in his face
how he had flashbacks to all those great wins with a Honda engine and how sad he was
that it would come to an end. He had Honda power in 32 out of his 41 grand prix wins after all.
I get tears in my eyes damn near every time I watch this clip, seeing Senna choke up and being unable
to continue the interview, instead he ran away and you can see him wiping tears off his cheeks with his sweater.
A year and a half later, Senna was gone too.
I'm referring to 1:28 - 2:47 in this clip:
and the most emotional interview with Senna I ever saw.
He spoke his mind about Honda exiting F1 at the time and you could just see it in his face
how he had flashbacks to all those great wins with a Honda engine and how sad he was
that it would come to an end. He had Honda power in 32 out of his 41 grand prix wins after all.
I get tears in my eyes damn near every time I watch this clip, seeing Senna choke up and being unable
to continue the interview, instead he ran away and you can see him wiping tears off his cheeks with his sweater.
A year and a half later, Senna was gone too.
I'm referring to 1:28 - 2:47 in this clip:
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I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: it’s the hybrids. They’re too expensive for everyone except the biggest OEMs. F1 won’t be great again until the OEMs all bugger off and we’re left with the likes of Williams and Haas running simple atmos Cosworth and Judd engines.
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- bkfountain
- fozzie bear
I’m surprised they stayed as long as they did. These engine rules have been god awful. After all these years, Ferrari has fallen back after cheating, Redbull is still not a real threat to Mercedes, and Renault is just down in the midfield with no customer teams next year. No new manufacturers came in.
This really bums me out on the sport.
This really bums me out on the sport.
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- ScottPye20
Honda has had a tumultuous saga ever since returning to F1, and the relationship with McLaren was sour. The engine was truly woeful but they persisted and eventually found success in the back of the AlphaTauri and Red Bull. However, it was an expensive journey that has ultimately proved unsustainable. Which is a shame really. I don't want F1 to go down the same route as LMP1 because if it does, the grids will shrink and the championship will suffer terribly. F1 is too expensive in it's current state and politics are crippling the show. The teams have too much power and things must change to keep the championship alive.
LeGeNd-1
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Honestly I'm quite surprised at this. I thought Honda had learned from the Brawn saga to tough it out just in case Red Bull hit the jackpot with the new regs in 2022. At least wait until then before making a decision. But anyway, we still have 3 manufacturers so it's really not as bad as it sounds. Ferrari will never leave. Ditto with Merc as long as they keep winning. Renault's new CEO seems very motorsport focused as well. Correct me if I'm wrong but in the DFV heyday era, weren't almost every team used the same engine as well?
I think the rules also state Renault must supply RB/AT because they have the least customer teams currently. And the Renault PU looks to be quite good now so it's not gonna be a downgrade from a performance standpoint. It's gonna be an awkward phone call between Horner & Cyril
Alternatively, I wonder if it's possible for Red Bull to bring Honda's engine R&D in house and use a rebadged version? Kinda like Mecachrome/Renault back in the 90s.
I think the rules also state Renault must supply RB/AT because they have the least customer teams currently. And the Renault PU looks to be quite good now so it's not gonna be a downgrade from a performance standpoint. It's gonna be an awkward phone call between Horner & Cyril
Alternatively, I wonder if it's possible for Red Bull to bring Honda's engine R&D in house and use a rebadged version? Kinda like Mecachrome/Renault back in the 90s.
- 91
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That is a shame. It was great to have a Japanese manufacturer like Honda in F1 and they can be proud of how they turned around the program to win again. Now F1 is reduced to just three manufacturers and getting closer to a spec series, and that number could potentially only get lower. It will be interesting to see if Honda goes to Formula E now or perhaps Le Mans with LMDh.
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- GTP_Grand_Prix
The first F1 World Championship? Not exactly, the 1950 season had 4 manufacturers mainly, they were: Alfa Romeo, Ferrari, Talbot-Lago, and Maserati.
Alfa Romeo continued their dominance with the 158 that started in 1947, when F1 rules were established, and ended in 1951, when Alfa pulled out of F1. The 158 was originally designed as a Voiturette (the 1930s equivalent of F2, essentially) in 1938. With the Germans no longer on the scene, the conditions were ripe for the 158's dominance, as Alfa were better prepared than any one else after the war ended. Although it started life as a Voiturette, the post-war 158 was no slouch: By 1951 it produced 425hp with a 1.5L supercharged Inline-8.
You can read more about the 158 here: http://www.grandprixhistory.org/alfa158.htm
Why is the 158 significant? Well, after Alfa Romeo pulled out of F1, the World Championship was run to F2 regulations for 2 years, 1952 and 1953 (which resulted in Ferrari dominance with Ascari). The FIA needed to do this, as there weren't enough manufacturers in the sport at the time. Desperate times called for desperate measures.
Hopefully, they won't need to use F2 regulations again,
It's just an example to show that it's not the end of the world if F1 is left with 1 or 2 manufacturers. Solutions can be found and used, if they are accepted.
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Dotini
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- CR80_Shifty
Power unit failures have initiated some very public tantrums and a possible record steering wheel toss from Max. Tokyo probably noticed this with a certain amount of pain.
F1 in the fairly stable '61-'65 1.5 liter era featured three consistently winning engines from Ferrari, Coventry Climax and BRM, the latter two of which were available to customers.
With the 1966 3 liter era there came initially a barrage of bulky and inefficient attempts, mostly ancient sports car and 2.5 liter F1 units. But a humble production based REPCO emerged as the big winner.
Then came the greatest engine ever to come to F1, the Ford Cosworth V-8. F1 flourished as never before. After a brilliant and highly competitive decade+, big manufacturers with turbo engines began to take over, ultimately succeeding in driving out the affordable commercially based F1 engine.
Indy car with two customer engines available is showing signs of commercial viability and good competition.
F1 in the fairly stable '61-'65 1.5 liter era featured three consistently winning engines from Ferrari, Coventry Climax and BRM, the latter two of which were available to customers.
With the 1966 3 liter era there came initially a barrage of bulky and inefficient attempts, mostly ancient sports car and 2.5 liter F1 units. But a humble production based REPCO emerged as the big winner.
Then came the greatest engine ever to come to F1, the Ford Cosworth V-8. F1 flourished as never before. After a brilliant and highly competitive decade+, big manufacturers with turbo engines began to take over, ultimately succeeding in driving out the affordable commercially based F1 engine.
Indy car with two customer engines available is showing signs of commercial viability and good competition.
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What is this, their fourth departure from F1? 1968, 1992, 2008, 2020...I suppose we can re-quote this around 2034.
I suspect a lot of re-badged engines to give the appearance of more manufacturers, because I don't see anyone new throwing down a billion bucks on development and entry.
I suspect a lot of re-badged engines to give the appearance of more manufacturers, because I don't see anyone new throwing down a billion bucks on development and entry.