How are PP calculated??

[andmen]

I don't mean this in an insulting manner, but just because you can't drive it faster doesn't mean it can't be faster.

Part of the problem with Forza's system was that the points were determined by a simulated lap. The faster the lap, the more points the car received. The problem with this was that a human player likely can't drive an insane RWD car at the limit as consistently and easily as an AWD car for example. So even though the computer got a better time out of car X, the average player will get faster times with car Y.

Make sense?

I agree with you but when looking at the numbers in real life and in the game, i dont see how an SLR can be faster on paper. The torque advantage would not overcome 30% weight difference, a mid engine layout and much better aero dynamics.

 

[freedomweasel]

I agree with you but when looking at the numbers in real life and in the game, i dont see how an SLR can be faster on paper. The torque advantage would not overcome 30% weight difference, a mid engine layout and much better aero dynamics.

To be honest, I haven't done any comparisons between these cars. My comment was more "food for thought" than anything. It's also very possible the PP system is broken. I just hadn't seen my point mentioned very often in these discussions so I thought I'd throw it out there. 👍

For what it's worth, I don't really see why an SLR would be faster than an Enzo either. they weren't even really built for the same purpose in the first place.

 

[charliec]

I agree with you but when looking at the numbers in real life and in the game, i dont see how an SLR can be faster on paper. The torque advantage would not overcome 30% weight difference, a mid engine layout and much better aero dynamics.

Cars don't operate at a single RPM speed. If the SLR has a larger powerband and is capable of producing more power over a larger range of engine speeds, it will most likely be faster than a car that produces the same/similar power but in a very peaky manner.

That's why area under the power curve is important.

 

[JawsV8]

Cars don't operate at a single RPM speed. If the SLR has a larger powerband and is capable of producing more power over a larger range of engine speeds, it will most likely be faster than a car that produces the same/similar power but in a very peaky manner.

That's why area under the power curve is important.

Power curve is important, but the Enzo isn't exactly struggling for torque--it's not a Honda Civic. It has a decent torque curve. Once you get above 300 ft-lbs, anything more is pretty much superfluous.

The Enzo is simply a far superior performance machine, there is no arguing.

 

[charliec]

Power curve is important, but the Enzo isn't exactly struggling for torque--it's not a Honda Civic. It has a decent torque curve. Once you get above 300 ft-lbs, anything more is pretty much superfluous.

The Enzo is simply a far superior performance machine, there is no arguing.

And yet I argue (kidding)

I was mainly referring back to the OP who is comparing tuned cars (Enzo and SLR) in GT5, between which the SLR has a 220+ lb-ft torque advantage. This isn't a trival amount in my opinion, and I suspect the power band is substantially favoring the SLR.

No, I know that in real life the Enzo is generally faster, but to be fair to it, the SLR is still midengined (in front of cockpit, between axles), has active aerodynamics, and has a fat powerband thanks to the large engine and supercharger. You could run an Enzo, Carrera GT and SLR at a track repeatedly and have the Enzo and Carrera GT win every time, but I have no doubt the SLR and it's extra 900lbs would be nipping at their heels the whole way.

 

[SlyckTires]

Try going into the settings for each car, changing either the downforce, ballast or power limiter. Get out of settings, then go back in and undo your changes and that should fix the problem...
I found after the update to remove tyre selection from the PP system that some cars PP went up and some cars down dependent upon what tyres were fitted...
I went through all 1100 of my cars (at the time) and did this process so I knew which cars were better... After hours and hours of doing nothing but flicking through the settings menus of all my cars it was done... If they change the system again I think I will cry...

Man, how do you find time to actually race?

 

[chuyler1]

I've been hosting a 450pp room for about 2-3 weeks now. I myself have tried roughly a dozen fully tuned cars at this level and the conclusion I have made at this stage of the game is that quite simply, some cars are quicker than others. You could be a master tuner but the one thing you cannot overcome is a bad torque/horsepower curve (unless they implement engine swaps).

My lap times in 450pp cars vary by as much as 5 seconds around Trial Mountain, a course I know very well. Time is not lost in the corners, its lost accelerating out of them. I could run 50 laps in one 450pp car and come up with a best lap of 1:34 then jump in another 450pp car and run a 1:31 after 2 or 3 warmup laps. 3 seconds may not seem like a lot in A-spec mode, but it is an eternity in online racing. You'll be dusted in the first 3 turns of any track and never see another racer unless they wipe out.

Part of the issue is that performance points account for the entire RPM range but we only race in the top RPMs (assuming a fully adjustable transmission is installed so you can have close ratios in the optimal power band).

So a car like the Autobacs Garaiya handles great but it has a virtually flat torque and hp curve. It makes about 200hp across its entire range and you pay for that power you aren't using. Compare that to a Honda S2000 which has virtually no low end power but peaks at the racing rpm range. On the track it is faster by about 2 seconds.

Another part of the issue is the balance between weight and power. I can't tell you what it is optimized for but it certainly isn't acceleration times. Extremely light cars definitely fall short when it comes to straight line speed. However, they fall short to middle weight cars as heavy cars are just as slow as extremely light cars on straights. For the 450pp class I race in there is a sweet spot around 1000-1200kg. Go below that and you might be quicker in the turns but not quick enough to keep other cars out of your draft on the straights. Go above that and you'll just be slow everywhere.

Finally, don't forget about downforce. Adding a wing might look cool, but if you can dial in your car without it, you'll definitely have the upper hand. Not because downforce slows you down, its because those points are better spent on power upgrades. In my 450pp room, people with wings get left in the dust.

In conclusion, don't expect a fair match in a PP room. Experienced racers who know which cars are faster will have the upper hand. Check who is winning races at a particular track and get the same car they have...it sounds stupid and completely contrary to the principle of performance points, but after 3 weeks of racing at the same PP level that's the best conclusion I can come up with.

 

[ChadSpeed]

I have compared the the power to wieght ratio in my 500pp cars, it can vary up to a kilo. Thats a lot. I know the update removed tires from the PP number and I think that should be an option not the rule. Now the only things that affect your PP are HP upgrades, and weight reductions, while drivetrain, transmission, suspension, and tires do not affect it. This is very puzzling for PD to have this big of a glaring issue in the PP.

I took a 500pp 69 Camaro to Laguna with and with out the racing transmission, the racing transmission shaved 3 sec off per lap. The racing suspension then shaved off another .9 sec per lap. Drive-train didn't shave a ton off time, but the 500pp camaro rarely broke traction.

^^ This explains why cars can run away online when I'm using a car that has no tranny, suspension upgrades but the opponents do. Cars with that big of a difference shouldn't be rated the same pp.👎

FM3 also has some issues in its PI, but not to such a wide reaching degree, just annoying handful of leaderboard cars for each class, while most others in the class are close and competitive.👍

 

[chuyler1]

I agree that tranny, LSD, and suspension upgrades should count...but until they do you gotta grab them all to be competitive.

 

[oopssorryy]

Lets say that you have two cars with the same horsepower and torque ratings, and weight. now lets say the Car A hits it's peak torque at 3000RPM and drops off slowly until redline, and hit's it's peak horsepower at 5000RPM and again drops off slowly until redline. And Car B hits it's peak torque at 4500RPM and drops slowly until redline, and hits it's peak horsepower at 7000RPM and drops slowly until redline. Car A will have the most PP because of Area Under the Curve, or how much room there is under the horsepower and torque lines on a dyno graph.

This effect is difficult to see once you start adding different weights, horsepower and torque values, but it is there and effects your PP value all the same. At least IMO that is. This effect can be seen the best when racing in PP brackets, were you'll have a verity of cars all around the same PP values. What will win these races is a proper tune of both suspension and LSD, skill, transmission settings. I think the transmission hasn't been used to it's fullest potential in GT5, and once it has been it will unlock the full performance of some of these "slower cars"

 

[chuyler1]

I agree that the secret is in the transmission for slower cars, not just optimizing it for the hp/torque curve but also shifting at the right points. ...but it isn't always enough to run a family sedan (Mazda Atenza) at the same pace as a super car (Honda NSX). The faster cars have power bands optimized for high rpm racing while the family sedans have smooth curves optimized for daily driving. Add a stage-3 turbo and you'll begin to make the family sedan faster...but on most cars that just isn't enough to compensate for an engine that was never designed to run at 7,000rpm in the first place.

 

[phil bell]

I find the PP system stupid and unintuitive.Very poor guide.Forza does it much much better.As for torque and hp ratings my Corvette now has 5hp less but 15 ft lb torque more and a flatter torque curve and what happened?PP dropped by 1.Tsk.